ID Cards

[Victoria]

For the hard of thinking.......suppose one of your inbound packets gets opened, seized, returned, whatever and the diligent blue shirt annotates your file on the DB. You would undoubtely be \'flagged\' everytime you appeared on an international flight manifest or trotted your wonderful ID card past a passsive reading post. So no more march thru the green channel after your hols for you #675435788998/SMUGGLER.

Ahh, I begin to understand your own rationale, Narikaa.

It's funny. I can GUARANTEE you there are Germans, Belgians, Brazilians, Spaniards, Greeks etc. who are reading this thread and scratching their heads.

They just do not get this Anglo-Saxon froideur against National IDs.

It's hard to explain it to them, because they were born having a National ID (even I had a Personalausweis when I was a German citizen). To them, it's as normal and as unscary as a Sunday roast is for us.

I'm against it, but a people which fears government progress and tightening restrictions is living in some dreamland. The alternatives are NOT the Wild West or Gattaca.

Here is Hitler's Personalausweis, BTW.

(Occupation: MALER, LOL!)

[narikaa]

Yes people are deluded by the past

Bits of card hold no fears (weve all spent a Christmas or two watching the Great Escape reruns)

But any doubters only need to see how the charming Cheif of Police of North Wales has utilized minimal technology to crucify motorists and CONDUCT SURVEILLANCE on out of town traffic using number plate reconition cameras.....why? BECAUSE HE CAN....but of course no such mentality could ever be applied to the wealth of possibilities contained in a readable chip ID card.

.

[hambone]

[Pugwash]

They just do not get this Anglo-Saxon froideur against National IDs.

Repeat after me.

It's not the ID cards, it's the centrally stored biometric database.

It's not the ID cards, it's the centrally stored biometric database.

It's not the ID cards, it's the centrally stored biometric database.

I have a passport. I don't mind having a passport.

[Victoria]

It's not the ID cards, it's the centrally stored biometric database.

I have a passport. I don't mind having a passport.

Yes, but National IDs are a form of internal passport. I am against National IDs whether or NOT they have stored biometric data. That just makes them simply beyond the pale.

So the question is, if they didn't have the biometric data, would you be against National IDs?

[Pugwash]

So the question is, if they didn't have the biometric data, would you be against National IDs?

Considering the photo is a biometric?

I'm not against ID cards per se. I'm against the UK government, with their current record, holding all that data with no opt-out.

Basically, I work in IT. I know what the limits are and I don't think we're technologically capable of storing that quality of data securely within the budgets set out by the government.

It's a step too far. Far too much reliance will be put upon this card and you cannot trust a single thing this much.

ID cards should be opt-in, like passports. In fact, just use passports. We know how well they work, we know what they look like and we know the limits.

[Victoria]

Considering the photo is a biometric?

Then all IDs are a form of biometric data. In a complex society, identification helps the person, more than it will ever harm them.

I'm not against ID cards per se. I'm against the UK government, with their current record, holding all that data with no opt-out.

Presumably, if a government reached power more to your liking and trust, you would be more amenable? I hope I misunderstood because this reduces your stance into something petty (disliking a particular government), rather than into something philosophical.

ID cards should be opt-in, like passports. In fact, just use passports. We know how well they work, we know what they look like and we know the limits.

Internal passports were used in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. No thanks for me.

[b16a2]

I think there is a good basis for not trusting the current Governments stance. The amount of personal information that through bad practice they have lost, is bewildering.

Certainly I agree with ID cards, but not for nationals,, they should be for immigrants. I suppose it's a form of 'not in my back yard' view.

I truely don't understand how having ID cards for nationals will aid their fight against this that and the other, when this government has already proved it can't even keep driving licence information safe.

[DemonSlayer]

I personally don't think the UK government and government bodies/organisations can be trusted enough for us to place our safety into their hands. When they do make mistakes, they are quick to just brush them aside.

Look what happened to Jean Charles De Menezes, he was misidentified as being one of the July 05 bombers, but with no real check up of who he was, just going by appearance alone. There were a lot of discrepancies in the police report about what happened that day and the report from witnesses. At the end the officers in charge were just given a slap on the wrist. If he had one of these ID cards on him that day, would it have made a difference? Probably not in his case, if he reached for his pocket to take it out he would have still ended up being shot in the head as the police would think he was reaching for a trigger. Maybe if they had approached him beforehand it may have saved his life.

Another thing I don't understand is, if the police did indeed suspect him of being one of the bombers, why the hell did they let him go anywhere near a train station or a bus? Surely it would make more sense to approach him when he's on the road where if he had been a bomber, he would pose much less risk on the safety of people's lives. In fact several police officers actually boarded a bus with him on it! Again if he had been a bomber he could have exploded the bomb on the bus, killing several people including the police officers.

[Pugwash]

Presumably, if a government reached power more to your liking and trust, you would be more amenable? I hope I misunderstood because this reduces your stand into something petty (disliking a particular government), rather than into something philosophical.

Disliking a particular government? Not a hope. There isn't a government on the planet I trust to hold that much data benignly.

Maybe you should reread what I posted before.

[Victoria]

Disliking a particular government? Not a hope. There isn't a government on the planet I trust to hold that much data benignly.

Maybe you should reread what I posted before.

Perfect. We're 100% in agreement.

[narikaa]

So the question is, if they didn't have the biometric data, would you be against National IDs?

Its the same deal...delayed

If non data chip IDs were allowed (analogous to the old passports) it only requires a 'spin'....Terrorism, Olympics, Homeless overheated Polar Bears, Red Nose day, Ant n Dec say so....or whatever...then they are 'updated' as a fait accompli....

just like the Passports were.

.

[Corgi]

You know who else wanted people to show their ID cards upon request?

The SS.

[Pugwash]

You know who else wanted people to show their ID cards upon request?

The SS.

They also wanted you to pay taxes, go to school, not hurt other people, exercise regularly ...

"You know who else recommended a solid regime of healthy eating and regular exercise? The SS."

Yeah, not as scary.

ps. I call Godwins.

[narikaa]

Oh that SS

Thought the Social Security had upped its game

.

[Victoria]

ps. I call Godwins.

Actually, I mentioned Nazi Germany first.

But you mentioned Dubya before that, and everyone knows that's the new internet Godwin Law.

Going to vote in the Florida Primary soon. Having no Costco card, I intend on taking NOTHING to prove who I am -- and just sign a little piece of paper saying I am who I claim I am. Let voter fraud be damned!

[Victoria]

Going to vote in the Florida Primary soon. Having no Costco card, I intend on taking NOTHING to prove who I am

I showed them my old University ID and voter's registration card (a little piece of cardboard with name & address, not a proper ID like it is in other countries).

The poll worker manning the tables actually questioned me, asking her superior if that's allowed -- which is GOOD! As the ex-Clerk, I want to see them doing their job.

Voter turn out is decent in the precinct, I was told. There are 5 crucial ballot iniatives, like voting "yes" or "no" to the expansion of gambling in Miami-Dade County, so it's not just all primary voting.

...although to my astonishment, the Dade Co. ballot includes candidates LONG since gone, like Tom Tancredo (if you're a registered Republican), Bill Richardson (if you're a registered Democrat), etc. Ridiculous.

[POTR]

I like to see how tight the polls are myself.

Last time I voted in KY, I used an AMEX Credit Card as ID...

Last time I voted in WA, I used the local Registered Voter card... and 'forgot' my DL... but I've got mail!

Pretty depressing how similar the idiots are on all sides...

My only question for years has been, how fast to you want it all to go to hell? Take a ride a hand basket? Vote Rep... Express bus in the wide open car pool fast lane? Vote Dim. Then the Reps go and throw the basket in the bus.

[Victoria]

Last time I voted in KY, I used an AMEX Credit Card as ID...

Yes, also down here.

In Miami-Dade County (& Broward), you need to present an ID which has your your signature, and a photo of yourself. If you cannot provide it in one solitary ID, for example a library card doesn't have a photo, but it has your signature, then you can give two IDs, the other with your photo.

This varies from county to county in the US, never mind state, or nationwide standards. A TOTAL MESS.

I'm against National IDs. But that this ID-less system is fraught with fraud possibilities, it is. It's SUCH a porous, trusting system. No wonder the 9/11 attackers did what they did.

And still can.

The thing is, having a National ID wouldn't stop them. It would merely delay the suicidal.

Last time I voted in WA, I used the local Registered Voter card... and 'forgot' my DL... but I've got mail!

Before the law I mentioned passed by Governor Bush, that's all you needed to prove you were a resident of the State to get a driving license. An illegal person could send mail to himself, perhaps using a buddy's residence to receive it, and then just hand that over. They were given a license no questions asked...(well, other than exam questions, available in Spanish!).

Pretty depressing how similar the idiots are on all sides...

POTR, I disagree.

But that's another matter.

[Pugwash]

POTR, I disagree.

You have faith in a two-party system?

[Victoria]

You have faith in a two-party system?

Yes.

[Pugwash]

Yes.

You believe someone is inherently more stupid than you because they believe in a different party? Or are they merely less educated?

I've mostly given up on party politics when I've seen one side disagree with the other simply because it ewas the other side's idea. I mean, take this quote for instance:

"Instead of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on compulsory ID cards as the Tory Right demand, let that money provide thousands more police officers on the beat in our local communities" - Tony Blair, 1995

I suspect you can find similar ones in the US. That quote alone was enough for me to realise how stupid the concept of party politics is.

[POTR]

Are you disagreeing because you interpret my statement to mean all sides are bad? or because you fail to see idiots on all sides?

Hmm...

Let's have a moderately 'safe' example, with no labels...

Marriage in the United States.

Some will say marriage is between a man and a woman, only (meaning: marriage is a contract between the state, a man and a woman, with approval by and notice to the state, only).

Some will say marriage should be between any two consenting parties (meaning: consenting to contract between the state and themselves, with approval by and notice to the state, only).

There ya go.. 'both sides'... of course, both sides cut across parties, etc... (which is where my 4D representation is better)

Why are the major proponents here idiots, and wrong?

Irregardless of position, and politics, all sides disregard the Constitution of this country.

Marriage is a sacrament of the church, and was established as such LONG before this country (and our rouge parent country) existed.

Citizens' expressed rights are to be unencumbered by any law.

Marriage is rightfully between individuals and their G-d, gods, or lack thereof. The state should not be party to, or enabled to grant permission (or license (which is to enjoy that which would otherwise be illegal)) for the enjoyment of a protected Right. Especially one which the government is specifically separated from...

Yet, idiots on all sides placidly allow the government to make itself supreme in issues where it has no basis...

Simple.

[Pugwash]

Irregardless of position, and politics, all sides disregard the Constitution of this country.

"Irregardless? That's not even a real word. You're affixing the negative prefix 'ir-' to 'regardless', but, as 'regardless' is already negative, it's a logical absurdity!" - Steve Smith, American Dad.

[V]

In Greece we have ID cards from looooong time ago... nothing positive or negative happened. THey just exist and it is a pain in the ass to get a new one.

BTW I issued a new one this year(I am now 31). My previous one had my details from when I was 14 (when I issued my first one). Photo of me 14 y.o. and height 1.65 (I am now 1.90)