Frustration...

[Ztech]

Ok, I'm still a noob in the rep world so give me a little break, but what do you have to do to get a decent rep that's quality???

I've already blew $450 on an Ultimate Fiddy from another member that turned out to be an ultimate bomb, and of course, the guy is all mums even though the watch was mis-represented. I also blew $600 on some other reps from online places, before I found this place, that is hardly what I expected. So that's another bomb.

What's more, the more I read on the forums the more I get discouraged and feel that I'll never build an "Ultimate" PAM for myself. I see more people with problems than solutions. I mean how in the world are you supposed to find the right dial that fits the right case, etc., etc.???

Are the mods that difficult to do??? I'm thinking I should just buy some tools, which just I did, and try doing some of the stuff myself. At least if I f up I'll only have myself to blame.

I keep asking myself... what do I need to do to buy/make/bribe someone for an ultimate PAM rep that I can feel confident enough to wear???

Ok, I'm done venting now. Sorry...

[Ztech]

Wow, so nobody else feels the way I do?

Am I gonna have to call this new rep journey quits and go buy another gen. PAM only to scream in agony every time I ding the damn thing on a door sill???

[The Mentalist]

It's a cliche around these parts but pick your dealer first, then your rep second. Whilst you can never be guaranteed a perfect rep, you can mitigate against the worst happening and you being landed with a turkey by choosing a dealer who has integrity. Personally I put my business with Andrew or Angus. I also hear Narikaa is very good and so is TTK as both inspect their watches prior to shipping as an extra layer of QC.

For PAMs, Angus is your man.

And one other word of advice. Lose the attitude when replies don't come as quickly as you would like. It tends to have the opposite effect.

Edited February 28, 2008 by The Mentalist

[jot9011]

I feel your frustration...Sad to say, but there is no replica watch that is 100% true to the original.

While some come pretty close, if you look hard enough and know what to look for, there's always something that will give it away.

That being said, most of the good reps will fool 99% of the public (Unless you hang out with a bunch of Risties)

I do think that you have missed the point though. Confidence is something that should come from within oneself, not from a timepiece on your wrist. You should wear the watch...not visa versa.

[StormTooper4]

Ztech there is only one ultimate Pam and that

[USMC8404]

Bottom line, there is a certain satisifaction in owning a rep. But if you want perfection (true to the standard) the standard that you as an admirer have aspired to and only the original manufacturer can deliver, you should buy the real thing. Of course then you have to worry about bumping into walls and door jambs. Just remember, you can own ten reps for the price of the real thing.

[rodwc]

This is sad but true.

I for one , simply can`t help feeling and thinking that if the factories are so good at these reps. ( and they are )

Why in heavens sake can`t they put out a 100% perfect, in every way, rep?

I am certain that it has nothing to do with the gen. manufacturers copyright, and them saying that they are not allowed

to produce the perfect rep.

With a bit of communication between the rep. forums and themselves , this could easily be attained.

Poor font spacing, little tell tale givaways etc. would and could be a thing of the past.

Also , the main thing, they would SELL more watches.

[The Mentalist]

This is sad but true.

I for one , simply can`t help feeling and thinking that if the factories are so good at these reps. ( and they are )

Why in heavens sake can`t they put out a 100% perfect, in every way, rep?

I am certain that it has nothing to do with the gen. manufacturers copyright, and them saying that they are not allowed

to produce the perfect rep.

With a bit of communication between the rep. forums and themselves , this could easily be attained.

Poor font spacing, little tell tale givaways etc. would and could be a thing of the past.

Also , the main thing, they would SELL more watches.

The way they see it, is that they can release upgraded models and this leaves them room to do it.

[rodwc]

The way they see it, is that they can release upgraded models and this leaves them room to do it.

Yes, but are they aware of the Western way of thinking?

If there were say 3 upgraded models, I for one would`nt even buy the first model with glaring faults,especially

in the price range some of these reps. are in now.

So they loose potential sales markets before they begin.

I agree in general with what you are saying though.

[Ztech]

It's a cliche around these parts but pick your dealer first, then your rep second. Whilst you can never be guaranteed a perfect rep, you can mitigate against the worst happening and you being landed with a turkey by choosing a dealer who has integrity. Personally I put my business with Andrew or Angus. I also hear Narikaa is very good and so is TTK as both inspect their watches prior to shipping as an extra layer of QC.

For PAMs, Angus is your man.

And one other word of advice. Lose the attitude when replies don't come as quickly as you would like. It tends to have the opposite effect.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind. Attitude? Trust me there's no attitude, just frustration like it say at your 12.

I feel your frustration...Sad to say, but there is no replica watch that is 100% true to the original.

While some come pretty close, if you look hard enough and know what to look for, there's always something that will give it away.

That being said, most of the good reps will fool 99% of the public (Unless you hang out with a bunch of Risties)

I do think that you have missed the point though. Confidence is something that should come from within oneself, not from a timepiece on your wrist. You should wear the watch...not visa versa.

Thanks and I'm glad there are others who feel the way I do. I guess I sort of had the wrong idea from the start. I've owned a few gen PAM's and cringed every time I ding'd or scratched the thing, so I figured if I could create the ultimate rep then I could wear it without worries. Well, I guess I was wrong.

I don't hang out with the risties anymore, but I still have a few good buddies who are semi risties and my test would be if they gave a rep of mine a thumbs up.

Ztech there is only one ultimate Pam and that

[The Mentalist]

Yes, but are they aware of the Western way of thinking?

If there were say 3 upgraded models, I for one would`nt even buy the first model with glaring faults,especially

in the price range some of these reps. are in now.

So they loose potential sales markets before they begin.

I agree in general with what you are saying though.

The 'closed factory' Seamaster was nigh on perfect so we all know it is possible. The Panerai Ferrari's and the SFSO are all virtually perfect too. What their reasons are for not doing it are their own. We have to live with it.

[The Mentalist]

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind. Attitude? Trust me there's no attitude, just frustration like it say at your 12.

Thanks and I'm glad there are others who feel the way I do. I guess I sort of had the wrong idea from the start. I've owned a few gen PAM's and cringed every time I ding'd or scratched the thing, so I figured if I could create the ultimate rep then I could wear it without worries. Well, I guess I was wrong.

I don't hang out with the risties anymore, but I still have a few good buddies who are semi risties and my test would be if they gave a rep of mine a thumbs up.

Yeah, I guess I should set out on getting to know Angus? Who is he and what's his dealer name? Thanks.

Owning the 10 reps for the price of one gen and the not worrying about door jams is what set me out onto this quest. Thanks and Semper Fi/0311

Well, that is exactly what I was wondering myself, but I guess when it's illegal things get more complicated.

Angus aka Puretime. You can PM him. I highly recommend his 111e. Perhaps the best out of the box PAM rep out there.

[Ztech]

I'd say the reason why there are 3 "grades" to a model is because not everyone lives in a economically developed nation. I'm sure there are a few individuals out there who live in a 3rd world nation that would love to have a nice watch on their wrist. For them $50 USD might be a lot.

[rodwc]

Well, that is exactly what I was wondering myself, but I guess when it's illegal things get more complicated.

I don`t think for a second, the fact that it is illegal has anything to do with it.

This is China, and in many ways they are a law unto themselves,

this is all to do with making money. ( A communist country with capitalist ideas.) How sick and ironic is that ?

[Ztech]

Angus aka Puretime. You can PM him. I highly recommend his 111e. Perhaps the best out of the box PAM rep out there.

Thanks. I've actually been gravitating towards 111H or 111E as I've read that they're very good reps.

Also, this is to all the experienced rep guys/gals out there.

How difficult is taking apart a sandwich dial and re-luming it? From what I've seen, if you can successfully split the 2 pieces re-luming it should be easy. All you have to do is paint away, right? Unlike the sausage dials where you'd have to have mechanical precision to re-lume the numbers and indices.

[PAMman]

Particularly for Panerais, and to an extent any other watch, the best 'out of the box rep' or 'modded' rep will always be a watch with a closed caseback, absolutely no contest. The solid caseback can be repped 100% easily while the movement can't. For example consider the 201/A, 001, 027, 029 etc and compare with the best of the movements visible through display backs. All of the solid casebacks that I've mentioned look totally accurate from the rear and have the bonus of unaltered Swiss movements inside. The best modified movement won't fool anyone and, in my view, has been compromised by the Asian modifications.

When we consider the level of accuracy that has been achieved with complicated dials such as the Tag Link chrono, various Omega & IWCs, Breitlings etc. an accurate copy of the plain and simple Panerai dial (001 / 002'T', 000, 005, etc) should be a penalty kick. There is certainly the expertise within the rep industry to produce the goods so that's not the problem.

As a community can we not commission the production of a 100% accurate dial through one of our dealers? I would suggest the T SWISS T 001 or 002 dials for starters, then individually numbered matching casebacks as phase 2. We could underwrite the financing of the whole operation for a run of approx 100 items. I'm going to post this in a new thread to guage support.

[babola]

Particularly for Panerais, and to an extent any other watch, the best 'out of the box rep' or 'modded' rep will always be a watch with a closed caseback, absolutely no contest. The solid caseback can be repped 100% easily while the movement can't. For example consider the 201/A, 001, 027, 029 etc and compare with the best of the movements visible through display backs. All of the solid casebacks that I've mentioned look totally accurate from the rear and have the bonus of unaltered Swiss movements inside. The best modified movement won't fool anyone and, in my view, has been compromised by the Asian modifications.

When we consider the level of accuracy that has been achieved with complicated dials such as the Tag Link chrono, various Omega & IWCs, Breitlings etc. an accurate copy of the plain and simple Panerai dial (001 / 002'T', 000, 005, etc) should be a penalty kick. There is certainly the expertise within the rep industry to produce the goods so that's not the problem.

As a community can we not commission the production of a 100% accurate dial through one of our dealers? I would suggest the T SWISS T 001 or 002 dials for starters, then individually numbered matching casebacks as phase 2. We could underwrite the financing of the whole operation for a run of approx 100 items. I'm going to post this in a new thread to guage support.

Good idea mate,

I'm behind you all the way

babola

[Ztech]

Particularly for Panerais, and to an extent any other watch, the best 'out of the box rep' or 'modded' rep will always be a watch with a closed caseback, absolutely no contest. The solid caseback can be repped 100% easily while the movement can't. For example consider the 201/A, 001, 027, 029 etc and compare with the best of the movements visible through display backs. All of the solid casebacks that I've mentioned look totally accurate from the rear and have the bonus of unaltered Swiss movements inside. The best modified movement won't fool anyone and, in my view, has been compromised by the Asian modifications.

When we consider the level of accuracy that has been achieved with complicated dials such as the Tag Link chrono, various Omega & IWCs, Breitlings etc. an accurate copy of the plain and simple Panerai dial (001 / 002'T', 000, 005, etc) should be a penalty kick. There is certainly the expertise within the rep industry to produce the goods so that's not the problem.

As a community can we not commission the production of a 100% accurate dial through one of our dealers? I would suggest the T SWISS T 001 or 002 dials for starters, then individually numbered matching casebacks as phase 2. We could underwrite the financing of the whole operation for a run of approx 100 items. I'm going to post this in a new thread to guage support.

Thanks for the post PAMman. I appreciate your input. Opinions like yours is exactly what I was looking for. I don't know if you're familiar but I follow Ocean 7 closely and own their watch and have one on order. I love how the owner, Mitch, keeps everyon involved in the design and build phases. He is quite open about Chinese sourced parts and the fact what "Swiss made" really means. I think that if one person, with the right support, can form a successful new company, then why can't a group of comitted individuals commission an accurate rep.

[PAMman]

Thanks for the post PAMman. I appreciate your input. Opinions like yours is exactly what I was looking for. I don't know if you're familiar but I follow Ocean 7 closely and own their watch and have one on order. I love how the owner, Mitch, keeps everyon involved in the design and build phases. He is quite open about Chinese sourced parts and the fact what "Swiss made" really means. I think that if one person, with the right support, can form a successful new company, then why can't a group of comitted individuals commission an accurate rep.

I don't really see how this cannot be done. However, I am in EU and I only speak English so we really need an Asian partner with links to the industry. Ideally we need to be able to contact a dial maker with a proven track record and be able to communicate with him to get across the message of how anal we are.

[Ztech]

I don't really see how this cannot be done. However, I am in EU and I only speak English so we really need an Asian partner with links to the industry. Ideally we need to be able to contact a dial maker with a proven track record and be able to communicate with him to get across the message of how anal we are.

I think if we could get a trusted dealer involved and give him/her say a 50% deposit for 100 pieces up front to get things started we "should" be able to accomplish something like this. I mean if we could guarantee a dealer that they'll make a profit on a certain number of pieces why wouldn't they take the necessary actions to find the manufacturer to do this and supervise along the way? Y'all know these dealers on the forum much better that I do, is there such an individual with the right "stuff" to handle such a project?

Another thing though, we'd have to come to an exact consensus on which model we would want produced. Since, as you state, a closed back PAM is easiest to rep. If we could say come to a consensus to rep a PAM005, then maybe we can finally own, at least, one "TRUELY ULTIIMATE" rep PAM. I've only been in the rep scene a short time and I'm frustrated to no end, if there are, and have been, others who feel the same, I don't see why we couldn't get something like this executed.

[sssurfer]

I'm thinking I should just buy some tools, which just I did, and try doing some of the stuff myself.

I can guarantee that you will end up spending way more on tools and ruined watches than what you would spend in reps (being there, doing that).

.... But it's a lot fun!

[scoobs1971]

I feel your frustration with respect to PAMs. I really like PAmman's idea, but that's gonna take some time to realise - if feasable at all.

However, out of the box the 'ultimate' 111E (not the H) from Angus seems pretty close to the gen - provided you don't have to show the back. Changing the CG (lever pin should be off centre and the top of the lever is too sharp) and an additional relume will make this the easiest/cheapest way to go.

[flamemax]

I own a 111e from Angus

It's 2 thumbs up, great watch!

Mind you Angus has been unresponsive lately, he owes me some coin and is pushing the limits of my patience.

Just a word to the wise.

About sourcing parts to build an Ultimate, you got me, this aspect of reps is more confusing to me that than Panerai trivia.

Robb

[Ztech]

I can guarantee that you will end up spending way more on tools and ruined watches than what you would spend in reps (being there, doing that).

.... But it's a lot fun!

That is what I was afraid of, but I guess I've already got myself into the mud so... Fun I can take, the frustration I can't. At present time, I'm trying to find out what parts, exactly, I need to create my ultimate rep. From what I've read I'll need...

1. Susage 27 dial

2. Any 44mm SS case

3. 6497 movement, preferably Swiss

I feel your frustration with respect to PAMs. I really like PAmman's idea, but that's gonna take some time to realise - if feasable at all.

However, out of the box the 'ultimate' 111E (not the H) from Angus seems pretty close to the gen - provided you don't have to show the back. Changing the CG (lever pin should be off centre and the top of the lever is too sharp) and an additional relume will make this the easiest/cheapest way to go.

I own a 111e from Angus

It's 2 thumbs up, great watch!

Mind you Angus has been unresponsive lately, he owes me some coin and is pushing the limits of my patience.

Just a word to the wise.

About sourcing parts to build an Ultimate, you got me, this aspect of reps is more confusing to me that than Panerai trivia.

Robb

I've contacted Angus and will probably pick up one of his 111E's, if he ever get's back to me. Thanks all!

[sssurfer]

I'm trying to find out what parts, exactly, I need to create my ultimate rep. From what I've read I'll need...

1. Susage 27 dial

2. Any 44mm SS case

3. 6497 movement, preferably Swiss

If you are meaning a PAM 027 dial, be advised that it not so accurate*, and that the PAM 027 has a power reserve indicator that the 6497 movement does not have.

*Excellent print quality, but "flat" power reserve gauge instead of "sunken", and (minor and common flaw to all PAM reps) less-than-perfect "A"s in the text.