Proactive Measures .. Modders, Collectors, Scammers

[lanikai]

Having read recent horror stories of mods gone bad and money sent but nothing to show .. i would like to put this on the table for discussion

the topic would be what can we do to safe guard against modders that say they know what they are doing and inevitably run into all sorts of problems with members watches and more to the point .. money ..And myself having been a part of 2 very bad mod jobs and having sent over 500 usd to only recieve a rep that was trashed and non functioning .. then going through hell and back to rectify and not be banned by members who did not know the full story.. i would like the opportunity to try and support solutions..

Now I am not trying to advise Admin how to run their site.. but it seems that since this is a non profit forum admin cannot regulate how members spend their money.. rightly so....but i believe we need some solutions or proactive measures in place to see that this does not keep happening over and over again..

Ziggy has tried (I am not speaking for Ziggy. just lending my opinion) .. to warn members not to use certain members because he alway's ends up with their mess and is asked to help in restoring the watch, or accused of wanting a monopoly .... yeah right!!.. .. I am responsible for recieving one such jobs .. flavor flav was the responsible party .. i have no trouble posting his name on the board as he see's fit to leave his signature on my profile as if to say .. f**k you .. from time to time.. and after all the messes and money taken then refunded sometimes he is still around lurking probably still modding here but in QT .. but still very active on the other boards..

This is the internet and things are not alway's as they appear.. pics can come from anywhere.. and unless somehow verified how does anyone know if in fact the person claiming to do the work really is doing it ?

An example of qualification would be.. when I was personal training and then director of a large health and Fitness Club.. I would hire personal trainers that had actually gone through dieting and training themselves.. and had not learned by reading .. "Muscle Mag".. or "Muscle and Fitness" .. because basically you can sound like you really know what you are talking about by just studying these periodicals.. if you had competed and were sucessful I would take you over a college grad that only studied in the "books" for his or her knowledge..

so just because someone sounds like they know what they are talking about .. this is some good amount of money we talk about when it comes to our "hobby".. the results speak for themselves with Ziggy ... but what about modders such as flav.. or RBJ or watchbuff... everyone that sent watches and money were told they knew what they were doing

ie.. 500 usd for a TWP Radiomir .. that is a lot to pay for a watch with just a rep crown and so called re lume on a sanwich dial..IMHO.. and how do I know who is doing the modding

I won't beat around the bush.. watchbuff ... RBJ.... active on other boards but burned their bridges here and it cost members money that they probably will not retreive

We have no certification process.. or maybe there should be something in place

Perhaps we could ask that something be pinned as the disclaimer to the RWG is...

Ziggy

Chietang ........ all these members are proven comodities and provide a service thats

k2222 . adds value to our reps, and are honest and forthright.. but what about the new member who claims and sounds good .............

Lello

Sorry to sound as if we should start "policing" the forum and as I stated before I am not trying to tell admin how to conduct business.

But again as this is a not for profit Forum run by the a admin team that does a great job.. they really cannot be big brother to all the goings on here

so what are your thoughts.. and please just rational thoughts would be appreciated ... if you don't care for this thread.. pass on it

thanks for your time

aloha

Lani

[JJFlash]

Dealers and modders are policed by the same method in these forums.

Some member takes the bait and pony's up the cash for the product / mod.

If it turns out well then their happiness is posted for all to read.

If it turns out poorly then the crap-ola is posted for all to read.

It is impossible to judge products / mods without these products / services first being delivered.

In addition a dealer / modder may start out fabulous, then at some point fizzle out.

ie "Base" did some excellent mods for me, Luckyyy sold me some great pieces.

I personally had good dealings with both, many others got the big screw --- both now long gone because of issues.

It is each and everyone's duty as a forum member to post their good / bad experiences and name the dealer / modder.

This is our time honored method of weeding out the bums.

Not perfect but works reasonably well.

Through the years I personally have learned to not be the first on any offer.

I let others with more disposible income test the murky waters.

I tally up the positive and negative reports then make my informed decision.

Even then it is still a gamble for me.

[Daytona4me]

No one will like my opinion on this but I'll say it anyway.

I would use information posted by The Zigmeister as a reference when determining if what another modder is telling me is true,

but I would not use his opinion of his competition as a reference for judging his competition. As comedian Lewis Black would say...

"That's just fu*cking stupid!" would you ask Burger-King what they think about McDonalds.. or would you ask their customers as they are really the police men.

My comments have nothing to do my opinion of The Zigmeister, I think I hold the opinion of The Zigmeister as most members here do, I hold him in high esteem for his skills. Use The Zigmeister as a measuring stick if you will.... but my opinion is that this topic be approached in the same method as the replicas that these modifications sit on.... quality determines price.... period.

Some modders are Swiss, some are ETA Clone (whatever the hell that means) and others are basic Asian..... if they price accordingly I dont have a problem with it.

If I pay $175 for lume, I expect perfection, if I pay $125 I expect around a 90% job, If I pay $90 I expect an 80%+ job.

If none of this makes sense, ban all other modification experts and send all jobs...... 100% to The Zigmeister & vaccum... end of discussion.

If this does not make sense, offer something else that makes more sense... Perfection and reality completely different things thus you cannot create rules for fictitious scenarios.

Dont waste your time flaming anyone offering an opinion here unless you plan to offer something useful... and something that can actually be implemented. I could offer up pipe dreams all day long ... like "All modders should get their act together.. blah blah blah..."

I guess my point is that everyone has an opinion ... but how many have a solution? I hope we see solutions here instead of the same old opinions.

[lanikai]

First of all .. I posted this and in no way intend to have anyone else responsible for this thread but me..

that said .. i have experienced first hand what it is like to have a mod job go south and then try to work things out until it got to the point where i got very angry at being told that i didn't know what I was talking about..

this was not nor is it ever intended to be about Ziggy .. it is a point of concern for me anyway that this type of modding happens again and again .. and it it were about 20 or 30 dollars.. well it is not

I am not paying 500 or 600 usd for watches to be fully modded at this time..

nor would i refer to past modders who left as competition...

solutions are what this is about .. so disputes need not be a normal happening.. so if a modder or someone that markets themselves as one is grade A and not AAA what does that person do . post a disclaimer saying .. your watch may work resonably well.. the lume is only worth 60 dollars and not 80 ... I may or may not strip the screws...

D-4 did you see what happened to my 029 ? was that a modder just having a bad day.. the watch was totally destroyed ..the genuine crown was stripped.. gaskets were removed and a stem extender added ..

what I am saying is how can we ascertain to the modders ability.. just a roll of the dice on the first few members willing to throw in ?? sometimes that is probably safe if a large amount of money is not involved

but to use the board to market and advertise that you can do all mods ..lume etc... well

and please don't take this personally, but you did a review recently on a watch (Porsche flat 6) with collector listed .. price.. and for what it's worth marketing and advertising for the collector and being on the admin team of another forum.. is this something that should be done by team members who have a vested interest in the collector or as you put it "competition"?? Because what my eye's saw was that you were advertising sales for TWP.. there may be nothing wrong with that .. i have my own set of ethics.. and they are geared towards the members of this forum.. and only the members .. without vested interest in any collector or financial gain..

when I recieved an email for a raffle on the RWI it stated that it was unlike the "other" forums which were about profit for the forum... can you clarify that please.. as it is my understanding that this forum is for the members support

Now again, I will say I do not speak for the Admin team nor admin.. nor any collector or modder .. these are solely my opinions and observations.. so if i am to be banned from RWI .. so be it.. because my main concern is the support of the members of the RWG.. even if I am to be banned from other forums.. being played by a so called modder for 500 usd.. I got most of it refunded but only after the weekend from Hell,.. being accused of being a blackmailer.. and I was out for the replacement watch.. but that is water under the bridge,... history

but so that history stops repeating itself to another member.. I say what I say for me and not anyone else

and if being banned from other forums will help the members here.. then so be it..

[Daytona4me]

Wow..

I was kind of agreeing with you.. I was hoping this thread would get somewhere with people offering real options as apposed to just opinions.. my comments were for everyone who might post after you, and after me... hoping you and I both would not come back to a 10 page opinion fest as apposed to actually getting somewhere finding a way to "certify" (in my words, certify a Swiss, Asian, etc..)

I guess I have no clue what you are talking about with regards to advertising for The Zigmeister.. being banned , and other people being banned.. etc... etc.. ???????

Really.. no clue. Maybe I missed something somewhere in a thread.

As far as having TWP in my review for the Porsche Flat-6, I thought stating where it was purchased from is part of most reviews, I was simply trying to follow the different formats that others have set forth because I'm just starting to try and do decent reviews as apposed to blurry cellphone cam shots.

Apparently I have offended you somehow.... I'll bow out now.. Offshore, TwoTone, Kenberg, cornerstone... someone... feel free to delete my posts... it is obviously taken WAY out of context by one.. it's only a matter of a time before others follow.

[lanikai]

D4 you have not offended me in any way. just what I am observing for a long while now

Ziggy should not be portrayed as trying to get rid of the competition .. that is so wrong in everyway

when I used to restore paint and do refinishing for body shops nothing ticked me off more than someone with no experience

claiming to know how to restore paint or colour sand show cars.. and be left with the end result of terrible work.. taking twice as long to repair it

and I do not want to use Ziggy's name but I for one am tired of him being accused of "getting rid" of the competition to have a monopoly..

sorry maybe I misunderstood when you stated that "no one will like my opinion" ,,, if it were real options you were aiming for then maybe we should of stayed on point.. I posted this as a attempt at a solution to the on going challenges that will grow with more hobbyist being involved day by day..

and that this forum "IS" a non profit for member support then I am assuming that the admin team cannot set certification guidelines as you would have in a "for profit" business.. ergo an attempt should be made to ptotect new members from the pit falls of fly by night seekers that see this hobby as a gold mine

As I stated, there are members whom I trust whole heartedly and I listed my choices for them .. I guess this is one of the hazards of this hobby... hopefully solutions can be discussed.. maybe just to educate new members to proceed at your own risk.. which seems the norm now.. others have tried to voice this.. others try to support members and help other forums .. but the end result is very immature at times..

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Ok, I will state my opinion as clearly as possible without trying to [censored] in anyones cornflakes. I can hardly understand why ANY modder would offer their services on this forum. Even if you were a Rolex factory trained technician, the potential for disaster is there when conducting business via the internet. Here are just a few examples of what could go wrong EVEN for the best technicians.

1. You receive a watch that is already trashed. The "client" claims it was in NEW condition (and given the reputation of SOME of the collectors here, its possible that it is NEW and TRASHED). The "client" then trashes the modder on the forum for something that was outside his control.

2. The modder uncovers a defect in the watch that is not horrendous BUT is costly to repair. The client feels the quoted price for repair is unreasonable and trashes the modder on the forum.

3. The client receives a watch after being worked on by a modder and is simply does not feel "they got their moneys worth" and the modder gets trashed on the forum.

The simple fact is, what is acceptable to one person IS NOT acceptable to another. Some members may have limited income and spend TOO MUCH money on this hobby. So even the slightest imperfection is going to set them off.

The modders that seem to have even the best reputations can have a bad day. I have a watch sitting in a box right now that was worked on by someone from this forum. I personally think the work done was crap, and not only wouldn't wear the watch now, but wouldn't dare to try to sell it to someone else. So it sits here until I need spare parts. This debacle cost me over $1000 total.

The next issue is the "do-it-yourselfer". As some know, I enjoy making leather watch straps. I would NEVER try to sell them on this forum simply because I dont want to deal with "issues". I have given several away, and sold a few locally for what I thought were unreasonably high prices. I have taken a few watches apart in my day, and most have come out fine. But I DO have a few that have cost me substantial amounts of money to have repaired because I went further than I should have. SOME PEOPLE dont take this into consideration and try to do more than they should have, and then CHARGE SOMEONE for the work. Or worse yet, work on a watch themselves, screw it up and then pass it off to someone else to deal with.

If this forum were to even attempt to classify or regulate the sale of services here, it would be a disaster. And I cant imagine the forum would want to take on the responsibility of formally endorsing ANYONE. Its bad enough that they have to constantly step in when a collector steps out of line. Are they going to do the same with modders?

My suggestion to EVERYONE is to find a LOCAL watchmaker that you trust to do the work. Take your watch to them. See their work first hand. Discuss with them what you want,and have them do the work. When they are done (and if you are satisfied) pay them for the service they have provided. If you are not happy, discuss your options and make arrangements to have further work done.

[marrickvilleboy]

@ Lanikai,

Your thread I do believe adds value for our members on this board. However, I believe that finding a modder is essentially the same as finding a seller on this board. You don't just buy what they provide, but you also want to buy peace of mind. What would you consider as a certified modder? I believe most of the modders on this board are self-taught. Does that mean you're going to cross out Rob, Chief, and Repaustria? of course not.

In contrary to what you've said, I certainely do not believe that price ultimately dictates the quality of workmanship. I always stand behind my work and I only charge a low price because I believe i'm giving something back to the members on this board who thoroughly enjoy collecting replica watches. That is why I only stick to a tight schedule and only offer service to a limited number of members on this board. To me, its more of hobby, I enjoy helping out members and getting their watches the way that they like it. I find it very enjoyable and it does take my mind off the throat-cutting academic atmosphere here at Columbia =)

Just to re-iteriate, I believe each member here do suss out their potential modder, they go through the price range, reputation, activeness, and distance factors to make their best judgment. Generally, they will stick to a modder who has served them well and change to another if otherwise. I feel that we only need to let our members know that they should always be weary of potential modders on this board, ultimately, let them make their own choices.

[narikaa]

should we certify modders?

personally

all minutae modders should be certified

.

[lanikai]

@Marrickvilleboy... My humble apology for not including as a value added service

[Watchmeister]

Modding is actually a far more complex issue than watch dealers. A dealer sells you a watch and the criteria is basically: did I get what was pictured, is it as advertised, was price fair and is dealer service good (i.e. does he stand behind his product). Modding is complex in that it includes aesthetic improvements and actual watch servicing. Also modders can theoretically offer many more services (movement servicing, changing parts, reluming, etc.). So your dream modder is both a skilled watchsmith and artist. This is a very rare combination. And then to make it more complex people have good days and bad days. Even Ziggy can have a bad day. But he will do everything he can to make it right.

In addition, people can get in over their heads initially offering services they are qualified to offer and then expanding into things they are not. With the exception of 2-3 folks who have withstood the test of time what is the liklihood of finding someone who is truly a knowledgeable watchsmith and is skilled in the vagaries of aesthetics. 99% of local watchsmiths do not have both skill sets. I know there are a few here who have found local folks and congrats to them.

IMHO, this is the most complex issue to deal with. RWG is not in the business of certifying dealers or modders. It simply tries to protect its membership as best it can. And as for any comments on Ziggy and MacDonalds versus Burger King. Ziggy long since learned to stay away from evaluating other people's work. There is no upside. He does not get any additional revenue out of it. Let's face it, he is perpetually booked whether or not someone else is doing good or bad work. What he does object to is members being taken advantage of. But the reality is that folks get so nasty about it that he no longer will do it.

So, bad news guys. There is no easy "this guy is certified" answer. This forum does its best to protect its membership. But it is not in the business of buying or modding watches. IMHO, at best a forum can be reactive - not proactive as relates to modding.

[KB]

At the end of the day certification means that we give our approval to a certain modder, of course this means that when things go wrong members will turn to the Admin team and say do something.....you're responsible!

We saw this not so long ago when Navi had troubles on the Geeks, the Admin team there stepped in to try and help find resolution and then there was talk amongst the members that they had a duty to do so, or.....you're responsible!

RWG lives by the rule that we do not certify any dealer or modder for the one reason that we can't afford to be responsible, no one in the Admin team (including the Admin himself) makes a cent from steering this ship so we certainly cannot cover any lost monies of individual members, who after all made a decision to go to a modder of their choosing.

At the end of the day if someone asks me about modding/repairs I always just give Ziggy's name and if pressed I will also give a list of names not to touch but 1. Most of them are on other boards and 2. That advice is from Ken the member not the mod.

Ken

[lanikai]

At the end of the day certification means that we give our approval to a certain modder, of course this means that when things go wrong members will turn to the Admin team and say do something.....you're responsible!

We saw this not so long ago when Navi had troubles on the Geeks, the Admin team there stepped in to try and help find resolution and then there was talk amongst the members that they had a duty to do so, or.....you're responsible!

RWG lives by the rule that we do not certify any dealer or modder for the one reason that we can't afford to be responsible, no one in the Admin team (including the Admin himself) makes a cent from steering this ship so we certainly cannot cover any lost monies of individual members, who after all made a decision to go to a modder of their choosing.

At the end of the day if someone asks me about modding/repairs I always just give Ziggy's name and if pressed I will also give a list of names not to touch but 1. Most of them are on other boards and 2. That advice is from Ken the member not the mod.

Ken

thank you Ken.. as certifying anyone is too much of a stretch and beyond the realm of reason... so should hyping and over doing reviews for collectors.. as I notice some members these day's going over board in "selling" a collectors wares.. i believe this could also cause conflict and misunderstandings..

At the end of the day it really should be up to the member for himself/herself to decide on the collector or the modder

We all have our own choice of collector and for what ever reason if I or you or anyone for that matter goes above and beyond trying to market that individual the problems are sure to arise

All collectors have an ultimate goal and responsibility to the makers.. move their product... if the membership as a whole are here to protect against unethical deals and sales then that's our purpose and not promoting collectors..modders.. let their work speak for itself..

what I have found troubling for me is that recently ... some reviews seem solely to push sales for a collector.. by other members..

I value (members) Andreww ... chrgods... Pix... reviews to name a few because i know that they are unbiased,.. and state facts .. but when I come across a mod that is marketing himself as 5 stars and reviews that are really over patronizing collectors and members in clicks doing this .. then it gets me to wonder where the loyalties lie..(not mis-spelled)

but all said .. thank you .. my main concern in posting this was and is for more awareness in the future .. and I am sure this is not the last time .. but all we can do is be mindful..

thanks

lani

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Lanikai, it seems you and I may never agree on anything. I have been of the opinion for quite some time that YOU worked hard to "sell" The Zigmeisters services. It seemed that you took every opportunity you could to tell us what a great job he had done for you. And to knock or warn against other modders.

Now is that wrong, not really... But IMHO, it is exactly what you claim to be against when discussing collectors. Reviews are such that when not technical, they lead to TOO MUCH opinion. That is the bottom line.

I was very glad to see that the Mods stepped in and stated exactly what I suspected to be fact. THIS SITE does not want to accept the responsibility of policing collectors or modders. And they SHOULD NOT be asked to!

[notime4u174]

ohhhhh the drama. I had work done from rbj and never had an issue. As far as modders go, let the member make up his own mind, stop the bashing and a$$ kissing. I have lurked for long and notice that there ia alot of petty nonsense that takes place ,dissapearing threads bashing people that cannot defend themselves either because they were banned or afraid to be if they chime in. I own 3 booths that are occupied by master watchmakers at a jewelers exchange and they have different levels of expertise and experience. I never hear one MF the other, and the sales girls would tell me if they did it while I'm not there. Zig is one of many modders, some prefer him, some do not. Just leave it up to the individual and all you can do is guide them. Steering always seems suspicious.

[lanikai]

Lanikai, it seems you and I may never agree on anything. I have been of the opinion for quite some time that YOU worked hard to "sell" Ziggys services. It seemed that you took every opportunity you could to tell us what a great job he had done for you. And to knock or warn against other modders.

Now is that wrong, not really... But IMHO, it is exactly what you claim to be against when discussing collectors. Reviews are such that when not technical, they lead to TOO MUCH opinion. That is the bottom line.

I was very glad to see that the Mods stepped in and stated exactly what I suspected to be fact. THIS SITE does not want to accept the responsibility of policing collectors or modders. And they SHOULD NOT be asked to!

ok.. that we will not agree is not my concern, nor my problem.. maybe we speak differently or understand differently. i have said to let the "work" speak for itself.. and to think that "I'" need to sell Ziggy is well.. idiotic.. ludacris.. that's your thinking not mine.... his work speaks for itself..... as i have said let the pics speak for themselves..

furthermore after I state that the mods are not nor is admin responsible for policing this site you keep saying that is what I am asking.. for someone that has constant problems with not receiving merchandise and has excuses for everything under the sun and can provide no evidence of the problems that you say you encounter .. pics would be of great value .. but you never seem to want to post them if in fact what you are claiming is true

I post pics of the work that is accomplished ... and I appreciate the service provided..... and site an example of any of my write ups where I post prices ... collectors,.. or try to sell their products in anyway.. i state to check with your prospective collectors .. and "their" prices .. I believe I address whatever flaws are evident.. and if they can be "fixed" .. or leave it up to the member to decide

so in your "so called mind" you are saying I am asking or telling the mods to police .. when what we are doing is discussing possibilities to find solutions.. what do you do besides buy and sell.??..

thank you Ken.. as certifying anyone is too much of a stretch and beyond the realm of reason ( I believe this is what I just posted)

At the end of the day it really should be up to the member for himself/herself to decide on the collector or the modder ( I believe I alsoposted this just a minute ago)

let their work speak for itself.. ( this also) so instead of putting words in that are not factual .. and trying to score undue points with whomever.. maybe you should take the time to read through .. are you just here to make money ?? and use smoke an mirrors to play hero??.. I know you have (2) million dollar homes .. blah .. blah.. gets old after a while

[bwhitesox]

Easy on guys lets keep this discussion on the low down and not start making personal remarks and slagging off other members.

This is an interesting and pertinent thread so we should build on it and kep it constructive.

[slai]

Lanikai, it seems you and I may never agree on anything. I have been of the opinion for quite some time that YOU worked hard to "sell" The Zigmeisters services. It seemed that you took every opportunity you could to tell us what a great job he had done for you. And to knock or warn against other modders.

Whenever I get a watch back from The Zigmeister, I'm usually excited and can't wait to tell everyone about how happy I am with his work. That's just normal behaviour in my opinion and I don't see anything wrong with it. I can't even count the number of times I've looked at my The Zigmeister'd Cousteau and smiled...it's difficult not to share that kind of joy. Hell if I were looking out for my own interests, I'd be telling people not to use The Zigmeister so that I could get more bookings.

[Usil]

would not use his opinion of his competition

The Zigmeister never gave an opinion on the competition - he showed us their work.

Usil

[notime4u174]

nonsense

[POTR]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity for an artisan escrow service.

Escrow accepts money and watch from client, examines interior and exterior of watch, documenting any existing problems, forwards watch to chosen modder, who performs services requested and ships back to escrow, who examines watch again evaluating for correction of problems and/ or completion of modifications, and sends completed watch back to client, and money on to modder, if the service is up to par, or sits as arbitrator to assist in negotiation of settlement if services are deemed sub-par.

But who would want to sit in THAT "hot seat?"

[ryyannon]

Escrow service much too complicated, and subject to endless problems. Why not Macro pics of before and after, documenting condition of watch at reception and the same after repair/modding, and systematically posted as thumbnails on the repair/modder's own sub-forum here in RWG? Not one hundred percent perfect, but fast, cheap and providing visible evidence of work and transformatons for all to see....

[lanikai]

Escrow service much too complicated, and subject to endless problems. Why not Macro pics of before and after, documenting condition of watch at reception and the same after repair/modding. Not one hundred percent perfect, but fast, cheap and providing visible evidence of work and transformatons.

Just wanting to say .. "good to see you ryyannon" and very logical timely idea ..

[ryyannon]

Just wanting to say .. "good to see you ryyannon" and very logical timely idea ..

And Aloha to you, Lanikai... I was following your mouthwatering cigar conversation in the Shoutbox earlier. I just received a lovely assortment from 1001cubancigars.com (they're having a 30 percent off sale on individual sticks), and can recommend them - especially for members in the EU: prices are in dollars, and with the Euro, you're getting a practically fifty percent price reduction!

I see they've got a limited but interesting selection of aged cigars also - which I'm going to look into.

Sorry for taking the thread OT - but my little digression is finished!

[lanikai]

And Aloha to you, Lanikai... I was following your mouthwatering cigar conversation in the Shoutbox earlier. I just received a lovely assortment from 1001cubancigars.com (they're having a 30 percent off sale on individual sticks), and can recommend them - especially for members in the EU: prices are in dollars, and with the Euro, you're getting a practically fifty percent price reduction!

I see they've got a limited but interesting selection of aged cigars also - which I'm going to look into.

Sorry for taking the thread OT - but my little digression is finished!

I will pm you tomorrow regarding habanos SA.. didn't know you were an Afficienado ... just finished a punch punch 01 mmmm like chocolate and nuts...lol

talk to you ..