RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Although I think I can hold my own when it comes to movements and techincal stuff, knowing about certain models, especially Rollie's is not my area of expertise. I just got this in, did a full servicing (movement was seized solid, you couldn't even turn the crown), and after the teardown, cleaning, and oiling, it works beautifully now. The wonders of an Ultrasonic machine and L&R cleaners... Just to show how quality never looses it's value, after I serviced the watch and had the balance re-installed, I turned the mainspring barrel gear about 1/10 th of a turn, and the balance started to swing...wow... For comparison, on a ETA movement after servicing, I need at least one full turn or more of the mainspring gear before the balance will start to move. Quality and amazing finish of the parts does make a difference. So have a look eagle eyed experts, tell me what you think, and what you see... Magnetic Flux cover installed over the movement and spacer ring. Caseback Cased up And finally the dial side view, I don't have the bezel or the bracelet. New T-16 installed (my last one ) Dial was stamped "Singer" and the letters SL intertwinded on the back. Opinions wanted, tell me what you think... And thanks for looking. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 24 views and no comments...I guess I'm not the only one that doesn't know a lot about these vintage models. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Well certainly the right people just haven't look at the post yet. I don't know much about Rolex, but other models I've found that housed the 1030 were the 6536 (circa 1956, an update of the 6205) and the 6538 (James Bond sub from Dr. No, also 1956). It dates back almost - but not quite - all the way back to the original submariner and seems to have been used for about 10-12 years, from the mid/late 50s to the late 60s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Looks like a very valuable watch to me Ziggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 24 views and no comments...I guess I'm not the only one that doesn't know a lot about these vintage models. RG Hi Zigg! I think we're all speechless....I'm no expert, but that looks like a beautiful collectible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 To the best of my knowledge the Milgausses were fitted with a 1580, which is an anti-magnetic version of the 1570 with 1 extra jewel (I cannot remember where the extra jewel went). And unless you did a dial & case restoration, I would guess that it is a franken. But I am better with 1019s than this model, so I will check my photo archives to see if I can find a movement picture of that model & update this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I guess I'm not the only one that doesn't know a lot about these vintage models. RG I'm in accord with you! I sow your great picture, but BMW to get one replay is too difficoult..... Wile , thank you for pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Movement looks fine- 1030-M for Milgauss, nice caseback of IV 1958. And yes, that watch takes a T-16 which are scarcer than hens teeth these days. The dial looks to be pristine- is it original? Other than that, I guess all you need is a bezel. A very nice watch from what I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I do not have any pictures of a 6541, but here is a gen 6543 From the movement picture above, it looks like the movement is gen (this movement was fitted to mid-50s Oyster Perpetuals) & may be correct for the 654x Milgauss, but the case is aftermarket, which translates to a franken. If you compare this case to Ziggy's, you can see that the cases differ in their thickness & in the way the stem is cut through the side. The only movement described for the Milgauss in Dowling's book is the 1580, but he only shows the inside of the later 1019 version. I have a few other pictures of Milgausses in my archive, but they are all the same as the 1 above. So my conclusion remains that the movement is gen & probably correct for this model, but the dial & case are both aftermarket, which makes this a franken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 @Zig, I think it's a redial. The coronet "mouth" is shaped a bit wrong and the two "R"s in OYSTER PERPETUAL are identical. The first should look normal and the second should look crippled with a more vertical "foot" to the R. The 6541 used a modified 1030 movement so that part is good. She's a beauty! Do you need another tropic-16? I have a gen superdome 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Interesting, I just went to Jewelry and Watch and Phong is building te 6541 Milgauss! http://www.jewelryandwatch.com/index1.html Send him a 1030 thru 1080 movement and he'll do the rest for $5500! Don't know if he has the magnetic flux cover though. But since the movement was frozen, Zig, I can't figure this as a franken, except the dial. And the bezel could be procured from Michael Young or Phong, for that matter it should be the same as a 5508 bezel, since they both take the same crystal. 5508 dates from 1958 but had a 1530 movement which had just come out at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Interesting... I'll have to shoot some pics of the dial close up, if it's a redial, I am amazed at the quality of the small "squares" in the dial texture, and the Tritium looks aged and has a nice patina. It's an odd one for sure, but without any information to go on, I don't know what to make of it. In any event, it's working and funtional, which is an improvement over when it arrived in the shop. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Do you need another tropic-16? I have a gen superdome 16. No, I'm ok, you better hang on to it. I didn't know they were getting to be so rare these days... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I'll have to shoot some pics of the dial close up, if it's a redial, I am amazed at the quality of the small "squares" in the dial texture, and the Tritium looks aged and has a nice patina. It's an odd one for sure, but without any information to go on, I don't know what to make of it. The dial is not a redial, it is a newly made aftermarket dial. Nothing gen about it. Here is the NDtrading 6541 (look familiar?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 The dial is not a redial, it is a newly made aftermarket dial. Nothing gen about it. Here is the NDtrading 6541 That's the dial. Amazing quality, funny how they make it with a few "flaws"... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 That's the dial. Amazing quality, funny how they make it with a few "flaws"... Yes, I have never understood why they do that, but they always get at least 1 (usually simple & obvious) thing wrong. The idea that they do that purposely makes alot of sense when you see 1 of these (or Daytona dials). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 So I wonder what the case is? It has a rounded edge on the caseback, appears to be worn out, and you can see the wear marks from the bracelet end links, which only show up after years of wear...how can the case be franken, when it has the markings and appearance of a 6541 and wear on it from years of use? Very confusing... At least I know the movement is genuine. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Check out the "R"s.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 So I wonder what the case is? It has a rounded edge on the caseback, appears to be worn out, and you can see the wear marks from the bracelet end links, which only show up after years of wear...how can the case be franken, when it has the markings and appearance of a 6541 and wear on it from years of use? I suspect the case is a standard rep case & the owner (or modder) just spent a bit of time rubbing some end links against it to create the wear pattern between the lugs. The rest of the case did not look genuinely old to me, but I hear that Nanuq has a wonderful collection of coins available for 'aging' a case should it require more 'patina'. This is just a standard franken, like many of us do here. Since the movement was frozen, I would hazard a guess that the owner purchased the watch from someone like Phong or he had the work done for him by an independent modder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I suspect the case is a standard rep case & the owner (or modder) just spent a bit of time rubbing some end links against it to create the wear pattern between the lugs. The rest of the case did not look genuinely old to me, but I hear that Nanuq has a wonderful collection of coins available for 'aging' a case should it require more 'patina'. Interesting. What confuses me, the dial, movement, stem etc all fit perfectly and line up, normally a rep case doesn't accept gen parts so easily. The case doesn't appear to be worked on or modified at all. The other part that is throwing me off, the caseback stampings, I have never seen a case back with the correct "IV 1958" type of markings. In any case, it's a neat watch, first time I have had one in the shop like this. @ nanuq Got it on the "R's" thanks... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 What confuses me, the dial, movement, stem etc all fit perfectly and line up, normally a rep case doesn't accept gen parts so easily. The case doesn't appear to be worked on or modified at all. The other part that is throwing me off, the caseback stampings, I have never seen a case back with the correct "IV 1958" type of markings. In any case, it's a neat watch, first time I have had one in the shop like this. Ziggy -- I agree. It is a neat watch & I would love to have 1. But if you consider how easily some MBWs & Viet Nam-made cases accept gen parts, it does not surprise me that someone found a gen movement to fit this case (or modified the case (as most DW modders will attest) to make it fit the movement). Seek & ye shall find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 There's a very nice bubble to the back, rounded and smooth as it should be for a watch this old. But the back of the case should be worn smoother too. The backs of the lugs on my 6536 are a bit worn from shirtsleeve wear. They're nowhere near as "sharp" as your photos. But... if it's a franken case, why make it to fit a t16 crystal? Can you find a crystal more rare than that or a t18? If I was making a franken case, I'd personally make it to fit a t19. Those are available anywhere. So it's got thin lugs and takes a t16. Verrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 I am of the opinion that the case is real. When you buy a Phong 6541 case, you get the crystal, bezel, crown and tube. Of course, his pic also shows the magnetic flux cover in it. Why would you need a new crystal if you already had one, and where's the bezel? Might as well get it all put back together at one time. Just my thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 There's a very nice bubble to the back, rounded and smooth as it should be for a watch this old. But the back of the case should be worn smoother too. The backs of the lugs on my 6536 are a bit worn from shirtsleeve wear. They're nowhere near as "sharp" as your photos. But... if it's a franken case, why make it to fit a t16 crystal? Can you find a crystal more rare than that or a t18? If I was making a franken case, I'd personally make it to fit a t19. Those are available anywhere. So it's got thin lugs and takes a t16. Verrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting... The T-16 did fit, but only after a bit of coaxing. It was just a hair too small for the case, and the compression ring had to be enlarged about 0.50 mm to fit over the crystal, so something was not correct. I am still a bit in shock over the un-availability of the T-16's, didn't know how rare these were. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 You remember how hard it was to try to make the T16 fit my case? There was no WAY it would go on. It sounds like persuasion made it go on yours okay. I know the 5508 and 6538 take the T16 so it's conceivable the 6541 would too. Question, was the crystal retaining ring triangular in cross section, or "L" shaped? I'm betting triangular. Hey do you still have those photos of my open 6536? Try comparing the case lugs with your 6541. Just a hunch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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