is Panerai overpriced?

[TeeJay]

Actually I think it is more about supply and demand. In luxury branded products it is up to the marketing department to develop that demand.

I think you could be right there

[longshot]

i bought my gen pam at the same time as a friend who was studying at the bowman watchmaking school in pennsylvania. and he sold his before i sold mine. after more than one of his instructors used the term "$1500 watch" to describe any handwind pam

the interesting thing is; he replaced his gen pam with a grand seiko. which he still has and is very happy with...

[p550racer]

Rolex is one of the highest advertised comodity (not just watches but all goods period) in the world. This is a fact stated by any and all marketing statistics. Rolex is the ultimate poster child of advertising since it's inception, to date. On the other hand Panerai is the least advertised of any substantial watch brand.

Yes, Rolex can be compared to Mercedes but Panerai is not comparable to Alpha Romeo, rather Ferrari. Panerai has done good market research and produce to supply less than 1/3 of it's market. This keeps the second hand market going strong and thus the fire of want burning bright. Sig Bonati is a smart man, however, Richmont is about volume, so one day Panerai now comparable to Ferrari may turn into Alpha. Hopefully, that time will not come very soon.

Carpe Diem

[Victoria]

Yes, Rolex can be compared to Mercedes but Panerai is not comparable to Alpha Romeo, rather Ferrari.

I did think of Panerai = Ferrari, but rejected it because even the least knowledgeable person about cars has heard the name, Ferrari. I think your market research analogy is spot on, though.

@TeeJay's reply: "Until folks realize that, in the main, brandnames are a con, then prices will remain high."

In this statement, contains your point-de-vue of the world. And where you and I differ, gently.

To me, a brand is like a family name: if it's worth anything at all, it has standards, it has heritage, it has accoutability. I'm willing to pay more for that. I'm not a Benthamist, looking for utility. If I were, I'd be into Timexes.

Of course, right now, that claim sounds hollow in terms of Panerai. But that will change, soon!

[slai]

Panerai = Maserati? Pagani?

[V]

No it's not overpriced for me. I have a gen 112 for 2 years and never regreted buying it. That'a the reason for my answer.

[TeeJay]

@TeeJay's reply: "Until folks realize that, in the main, brandnames are a con, then prices will remain high."

In this statement, contains your point-de-vue of the world. And where you and I differ, gently.

To me, a brand is like a family name: if it's worth anything at all, it has standards, it has heritage, it has accoutability. I'm willing to pay more for that. I'm not a Benthamist, looking for utility. If I were, I'd be into Timexes.

Of course, right now, that claim sounds hollow in terms of Panerai. But that will change, soon!

That's a fair point, and to be honest, one I agree with. Most of the electrical equipment I've ever bought myself, has either been Sony or Panasonic. The majority of my mobile phones have been Motorola (the others Nokias) I've always shaved with Gillette razors and shaving products. Brand loyalty, for a worthy product, is not the same (although very very similar) to product worship, where consumers think that X Brand is The Best, and will pay through the nose for it. (funny expression that, I wonder where it comes from ) That said, I wouldn't pay more for a product than I felt it was worth. Sure, I've bought Sony consoles since the PlayStation came out, but, only when the prices were what I felt was reasonable. I never bought them immediately upon release, because I felt it was something I had to have, and would never pay more for said product, than I felt was reasonable. If that makes any sense...

No it's not overpriced for me. I have a gen 112 for 2 years and never regreted buying it. That'a the reason for my answer.

Being able to afford the pricetag, and being able to justify the pricetag, are two different things Personally, I don't feel many 'luxury goods' justify their pricetags, compared to actual 'product value'...

[V]

Being able to afford the pricetag, and being able to justify the pricetag, are two different things Personally, I don't feel many 'luxury goods' justify their pricetags, compared to actual 'product value'...

I could afford the pricetag bacause i sold all my reps. I am not rich and buying the 112 was a very thoughtfull decision I am not regreting.

I am sure many people here have reps worth more than a gen watch. Do they need all their watches?

Everything in life is relevant and the question 'Is Panerai overpriced' is basically stupid (sorry t )

[stevie7s]

The price of a 127 or a 217 in the collectors market has been grossly inflated with the help of the marketing juggernaut over at Paneristi.com and TZ. Without either of those forums and marketplaces, collectors would really have no place to sell off their wares to such a niche clientele. The Fiddy's would be priced just over cost without these two sites. Take the 229 for instance, that piece should be 15x more rare than the 127/217 and priced accordingly but it does not hold the cache that the 127/217 do and they are priced just a little more than retail right now, and they only made a 100 of them! It is all about what is hot right now, and the Fiddy twins are leading the Panerai pack.

Will Panerai ever become "Rolex"? I think that Rolex will always have a certain cache and is more marketable to a broader audience due to its style and smaller profile (better fit for the average man/woman) I think that Panerai is far too unique to adapt to mainstream society and also, they only make 5000 or so units per year.

Marketing plays a huge part in what people wear on their wrists. Rolex spends probably 50 times more on advertising with their celebrities to ensure that the average Palm Beach housewife and her husband are wearing the same watch that Rolex's marketing team told them is the "it" watch for the season.

I feel that Panerai is as overpriced as a Mercedes is - that is that I am sure that Mercedes can build/sell their cars for far less than what they currently do but because of the mystique that a Benz holds, they charge what they do and we all pay for it, to just be able to get a part of the luxury.(well not we as I don't own one but you get the hint)

Edited March 5, 2008 by stevie7s

[DemonSlayer]

I think we have to ask ourselves firstly why we buy certain products, is it for the actual use of the product or the image it gives out when others see you wearing/using it.

The latter usually is a brand name and usually a 'luxury' product that is overpriced. As TeeJay pointed out, many generic products perform exactly the same function as the branded ones, but the price difference can be staggering. An example of this is Nike trainers. They cost relatively little to produce, I'm not sure of the exact figure but I think its about $10. Then the more popular models are sold with a huge mark-up which simply doesn't justify its price. An alternate pair of trainers or 'kicks' will perform the exact same function and cost a lot less. The price difference is not for a higher quality product, but purely for brand name. This exists in even Nike's own line of trainers. Take the Air Force One line of trainers for example, some models will cost A LOT more than others because they are 'limited editions', there is no actual difference in quality between this limited edition and the more lower priced one.

In the electronics industry I have personally found that brands such as Sony and Panasonic (which like TeeJay, most of the electronics in my house is manufactured by them) produce higher quality products than the cheaper electronics brands. My father does try to save money where he can however.

The Playstation One was bought probably 2 years after it was released, the same with the Playstation 2. We recently bought the PS3 but it was part of an offer that John Lewis were promoting, it came free with a Sony LCD Television

Is Panerai overpriced? In my opinion, yes it is. It is a luxury brand watch, which inflates its price. Most people who buy it won't use it for diving purposes (the original purpose for it being manufactured for the Marina Militaire). You can't say you are buying a Panerai for telling the time because you can buy a $10 quartz watch for that purpose. Can a Hermes handbag made from leather really justify its cost of $10,000? Its a friggin' handbag, women put their 'stuff' inside it, thats its function Watches costing as much as Ferraris is just insane, I don't care what it does for that kind of price, but in my opinion that price is just insane, even if it does perform fellatio whenever you want it to

[anton]

Will Panerai ever become "Rolex"? I think that Rolex will always have a certain cache and is more marketable to a broader audience due to its style and smaller profile (better fit for the average man/woman) I think that Panerai is far too unique to adapt to mainstream society and also, they only make 5000 or so units per year.

Panerai produces roughly over 50,000 units per year. 5000 units would only cover maybe 3 models in their product line! They couldn't be that much more exclusive than Lange (who produces around less than 8,000 units per year)

@ DemonSlayer: The watches I've seen that cost as much as Ferraris are the result of lots of research and they usually incorporate materials and functions too expensive to provide in an affordable wristwatch.

Price: $220,000. Reason: it's the first watch of it's kind to operate lubricant-free, thus eliminating the need for services. It utilizes types of experimental and manufactured materials to keep it lightweight.

There's more, but you can read it here:

JLC Extreme LAB Watch

If that watch doesn't make $200K spent on it worth its' money, I don't know what does.

[Victoria]

Snip loads of stuff I agree with.

Being able to afford the pricetag, and being able to justify the pricetag, are two different things Personally, I don't feel many 'luxury goods' justify their pricetags, compared to actual 'product value'...

That's why I think, of all nations, France is the one in the best position in terms of replicas.

Whereas other countries like the USA are known for their marketing icons, which can be duplicated, they banked very heavily on their inestimable terroir.

Try as the Chinese might, they will NEVER EVER be able to replicate Krug champagne, 246 kinds of French cheeses, and Johnny Halliday.

Thank God.

@Demon: I just read about the fellatio. You see, some people do read things to the end.

[Toadtorrent]

is panerai overpriced?

...of course not. $100K watches are very good value...and Panerai especially as you get more kilograms/pounds of watch than a vintage Rolex.

[stevie7s]

I agree and disagree with you on this one, Anton. I was incorrect by stating 5000 units/yr of production for Panerai. I am sure it is much higher than that but much less than 50,000 units. Panerai is still a hand built watch, albeit made in Switzerland and not Firenze, it is still handmade. That means that to make 50,000 units per year, Panerai would have to make 165+ units per day for 300 days to keep up that total. (we all know that they do not work 300 days per year) and I am sure that they do not work at a 165+ watch /day pace.

I have a question in for the Paneristis to find out if anyone there knows the annual production of the brand. For no other reason than I really want to know, now.

Edited March 6, 2008 by stevie7s

[t]

I could afford the pricetag bacause i sold all my reps. I am not rich and buying the 112 was a very thoughtfull decision I am not regreting.

I am sure many people here have reps worth more than a gen watch. Do they need all their watches?

Everything in life is relevant and the question 'Is Panerai overpriced' is basically stupid (sorry t )

@V

do you realy think it is a stupid question

i see here a very nice and interesting discussion... we haven

[stevie7s]

OK, thanks to the millestimation database on Paneristi.com I found that this year "J series" Panerai manufactured approx 35k units. Much more than my estimate and a lot closer to Anton's number of 50k. Now if we figure that the watchmakers work 250-260 days a year ( I don't think they work weekends) that equates to 140 or so watches per day. It seems like nothing compared to Rolexes 600k units per year but they have a few more workers on staff i am sure

[anton]

back to the discussion... how is the quality of PANERAI watches? Are they "overrated" or worth every penny? In compare with other brands and their models?

This is my previous post:

"I'll use my 74 as an example.

It's the case construction, the precision, how separate parts just happen to fit flush within the case (CG), how well fine details and paints are applied on the bezel, the quality of the hands on the stems (if you have a loupe, you know what I'm talking about).

It's how well the chronograph pushers are constructed, where all the proper places are sealed and well-lubed, how parts not held together by screws are pressure-fit so tight that it takes great might to remove them.

It even goes down to how attention is even put into how the lug screws fit into the case, how both PAMs I own and every one of them I see has lug screws that fit flush to the case, no recession or otherwise.

Not only are the parts well-finished on the outside, but the inside as well.

It's even the simplicity of the dial and the reasoning that less = more."

But that's not without its' limitations, though.

I've read about bezel markers being stripped from their threads, CG screws not being tight enough, PAMs losing time, etc.

FYI, those are isolated incidents. The PAMs are obviously high-quality watches. Of course, they're nowhere near the fit and finish standards of the haute horologerie manufactures.

[TeeJay]

I could afford the pricetag bacause i sold all my reps. I am not rich and buying the 112 was a very thoughtfull decision I am not regreting.

I am sure many people here have reps worth more than a gen watch. Do they need all their watches?

Everything in life is relevant and the question 'Is Panerai overpriced' is basically stupid (sorry t )

I think you misunderstood my tone, K. I wasn't criticising you (or how you were able to afford a PAM), I was just pointing out that just because someone (could be anyone, not you specifically) can afford to buy the product, that does not justify the pricetag which the company chose to put on it

[TeeJay]

An example of this is Nike trainers. They cost relatively little to produce, I'm not sure of the exact figure but I think its about $10. Then the more popular models are sold with a huge mark-up which simply doesn't justify its price. An alternate pair of trainers or 'kicks' will perform the exact same function and cost a lot less. The price difference is not for a higher quality product, but purely for brand name. This exists in even Nike's own line of trainers. Take the Air Force One line of trainers for example, some models will cost A LOT more than others because they are 'limited editions', there is no actual difference in quality between this limited edition and the more lower priced one.

even if it does perform fellatio whenever you want it to

Absolutely so, that's precicely what I was trying to point out. Another example, albeit one I didn't think to elaborate on, is Gillette razors. In my headshaving research, I found out some interesting things about King Camp Gillette, and subsequently, the products which now carry his name. Gillette razors, not only have to compete with other brands of razor, but also, their own products. Now, I bought packs of Gillette Blue IIs for shaving my head, as I wanted something which was cheap and disposeable (I now need to investigate if Gillette sell any single-bladed razors, to solve the clogging issue) I figured that they would be (obviously ) cheaper than the FusionsStealth blades, even if the shave was not quite as close.

I couldn't see the point in having one set of razors for my head, and another for my face, so, when I'd shaved my head, I just carried on with the same razor. Imagine my surprize, when I found that the Blue II gave just as close a shave, as my Fusion had provided At way less cost Talk about the power of advertizing right there Of course, my next test, will be to try using the Fusion, and comparing the performance, but, I suspect, that the cheaper razor, will actually be better for my purposes (less clogging, so longer useable lifespan)

That's not to say that brandnamed products can't be good. As previously mentioned, my Apple-branded earphones deliver excellent sound quality. But. That's not to say that a generic product couldn't be as good. (although obviously it would depend on the product itself, as some generics are better than others. Just as some rep watches are better (mechanically/functionally speaking) than others.)

Edited March 6, 2008 by TeeJay

[TeeJay]

Price: $220,000. Reason: it's the first watch of it's kind to operate lubricant-free, thus eliminating the need for services. It utilizes types of experimental and manufactured materials to keep it lightweight.

There's more, but you can read it here:

JLC Extreme LAB Watch

If that watch doesn't make $200K spent on it worth its' money, I don't know what does.

I agree, a service-free watch is certainly a technological quantum leap forward, but seriously, look at the watch itself.

Inadequate dial markers, with most likely non-existant lume, so only usefull during the day, and, an aesthetic which only lends itself to a sporting event (but lacking the chrono functions to actually be usefull) It's certainly not a watch which someone could wear with a suit (and expect to look smart). It's without question a nice watch, but, in terms of aesthetics, functionality and versatility, it comes up short, so R&D costs not withstanding, (obviously, a company will want to recoup costs) I wouldn't say that that watch was worth the price tag. In terms of costs of materials, maybe, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, but, other than that, no way.

[TeeJay]

Snip loads of stuff I agree with.

That's why I think, of all nations, France is the one in the best position in terms of replicas.

Whereas other countries like the USA are known for their marketing icons, which can be duplicated, they banked very heavily on their inestimable terroir.

Try as the Chinese might, they will NEVER EVER be able to replicate Krug champagne, 246 kinds of French cheeses, and Johnny Halliday.

Thank God.

@Demon: I just read about the fellatio. You see, some people do read things to the end.

Who needs Krug champagne, when one can buy a huuge bottle of Lambrini for under

Edited March 6, 2008 by TeeJay

[V]

@V

do you realy think it is a stupid question

i see here a very nice and interesting discussion... we haven

[rolli]

everything is overpriced, also ladies

rolli

[Victoria]

Why has Anton been banned? He was so nice. Dupe accounts??

[V]

Why has Anton been banned? He was so nice. Dupe accounts??

He s not banned.. This is his avatar