How picky should a rep buyer be?

[Flashman]

Hi guys,

I have received my first reps and as a noob myself just want to get an honest opinion on what consititutes a fair argument for a return with our collectors. I only ask as I know that it is so easy to be really an*l and picky with detail etc and these are reps not gens so we need to be fair and reasonable.

On the rep I have, there are two hairline marks/scratches on the silver date window hard to see in the pic, and the arrow head on the second hand has some red paint missing at its tip. Apart from these things the watch is seems great.

What your your thoughts?

T

[DemonSlayer]

Rep collectors shouldn't be picky, (in the sense of accurateness to gens) because given the nature of reps, the large majority of them are not produced with attempting to replicate the gen as close as possible. However, a dealer's responsibility is to make sure that his/her customer receives a product that is advertized. Personally, if I was a dealer, I wouldn't have shipped a watch with those errors, its not simply a flaw which distinguishes itself from a gen, but one in which the seconds hand is damaged or poorly made, but its a different story entirely if they are all made like that..

I think that the whole point of QC'ing is to make sure that people don't receive reps with such damaged parts, especially if you are charging a premium for QC.

[EuroTimez]

The best is not too have any expectations/pickyness then you can never be disappointent

Edited March 26, 2008 by EuroTimez

[EuroTimez]

Ohh wait, that is pretty darn nasty, I just looked at the pic, and I taught you were talking about something very very very minor, but that is kinda of a ugly flaw IMHO.

[vric]

Depend of the rep. Don't know what is yours, but if it's one below $100, I would let it be..

If you paid premium, the second hand is something that would definitely *** me off.. For the rest, well forget it

But look like it's just lume, so an easy fix.

Edited March 26, 2008 by vric

[EuroTimez]

Should look something like this, this one had light AR did yours came with AR?

[Flashman]

Should look something like this, this one had light AR did yours came with AR?

I think mine has light simplex AR, the photos don't do it justice especially with my photography so am happy with the glass. I can live with the light scratches on the date window, although they are damage done when the watch was put together. As to the arrow head, it does look bad especially now I know about it. Also it is something that really stands out and shows it is a rep.

So you guys think it reasonable for me to bring the issues to the collector's attention?

T

[Mickey Padge]

So much for TTK's close inspection/non drop ship policy.....

I would not settle for that at all, every tick will show that glaring flaw. I would at least request a new second hand to replace the damaged one. Or a refund/exchange inc return delivery costs, if you have no means to swap the hand. The fact he sent you a watch in that condition is 100% TTK's fault, he should cover the postage costs involved...

$100 or not, if you state "personally inspected watches", as part of you sales pitch, then that's what you should do. I fail to see how anyone could miss that flaw, even just glancing at the watch face.....

[Ztech]

IMHO, you may have to overlook some inaccuracies when it comes to comparisons with a gen, but I wouldn't ever accept manufacturing flaws on rep or gen.

[Flashman]

Thanks for your opinions so far, I totally agree that some people can go too far with inaccuracies between reps and gens and that we all have to accept they are not the same things. But any manufacturing defects especially when affecting the running or visual quality of the watch are valid issues for return or repair.

Is the replacement of a second hand an easy/cheap thing to do yourself or get a watch repair chap to do? I only ask as I would not want to buy all the equipment to do it just for one watch. If I'm going to get stung $100 for replacing the hand then it sort of kills the benefit of a $120 rep.

Just so you know, I have yet to contact the collector and just wanted to make sure it would be a fair reason to do so. I will keep all posted on the progress, even though he is not around on this forum anymore. As to my Noobmariner, that is perfect!! (at least so far).

T

[Raijor]

Save yourself a lot of suffering and accept that often times the rep you buy will not live up to expectations. For example rep lume is pathetic. If you can not live with poor lume on your rep you will have to pay for re-luming. On the other hand manufacturing defects should and can be fixed by having the dealer replace your watch. I have never been satisfied with the ratcheting feel and the click sound any Rolex rep I have had. It always comes across as cheap. My solution is and was to freeze my Sub and Yacht-Master bezels. No movement is better than poor movement for me. Essentially, I believes reps are compromises ... so I accept compromises. I would ask for your dealer to have that watch fixed or replaced. My 2 cents. Happy collecting.

[tomhorn]

I agree with Ztech (who put it most succinctly) and the others on this thread ... I fully understand and accept that there will be differences from the gen, but I dislike seeing manufacturer defects.

As a customer, I just want the watch to be what was advertised ... meaning it should look like the picture I've seen (if one was provided), have the parts/features the ad claims it has, the fit/finish should be good (either like new, if bought new, or as described if bought used), and it must keep time properly.

I am not afraid to pay a premium for a better watch (rep or gen), especially for better movements and for collectors who inspect their reps first (do not drop ship). Fortunately, I've been lucky and have not had to send one back yet. Knock on wood, I hope I never have to.

[freddy333]

The 'scratches' over the date window look more like dust on the inside of the crystal. Since these watches are never assembled in clean-room environments, you should not expect to see the same degree of cleanliness & quality that even the average Swatch or Timex receives. Small bits of debris & dust in rep watches are inevitable & I would not expect the collector to see or remove these (just my opinion). If it bothers you (it would bother me), find a local watchmaker who works on reps & let him deal with it (you might also have him service the movement, since most reps contain used or unserviced movements). Just be sure to inspect the watch carefully in the watchmaker's shop before you leave. Even under the best of conditions, it is difficult to see/remove ALL dust & you are going to be more critical than the watchmaker will be.

As far as the second hand goes, I have to disagree with most of the previous conclusions -- I do not think the hand is damaged or missing paint. It looks more like there is a speck of dust or debris on it, which, again, is quite typical when the watch is not assembled under the cleanest of conditions (rep watches are often assembled in peoples' homes). And as with the dust, any watchmaker should be able to determine exactly what it is.

[TK471]

You have to ignore some flaws. That said, that particular flaw would annoy me. Some flaws that I never would accept are a lack of basic functionality. The seconds hand should run, the chrono counter should work, etc.

[Flashman]

The 'scratches' over the date window look more like dust on the inside of the crystal. Since these watches are never assembled in clean-room environments, you should not expect to see the same degree of cleanliness & quality that even the average Swatch or Timex receives. Small bits of debris & dust in rep watches are inevitable & I would not expect the collector to see or remove these (just my opinion). If it bothers you (it would bother me), find a local watchmaker who works on reps & let him deal with it (you might also have him service the movement, since most reps contain used or unserviced movements). Just be sure to inspect the watch carefully in the watchmaker's shop before you leave. Even under the best of conditions, it is difficult to see/remove ALL dust & you are going to be more critical than the watchmaker will be.

As far as the second hand goes, I have to disagree with most of the previous conclusions -- I do not think the hand is damaged or missing paint. It looks more like there is a speck of dust or debris on it, which, again, is quite typical when the watch is not assembled under the cleanest of conditions (rep watches are often assembled in peoples' homes). And as with the dust, any watchmaker should be able to determine exactly what it is.

I have to apologise for the quality of the photo. It looks dusty but there is no dust in the dial. It all looks perfectly clean to the eye. As to the date window, it is hard for me to get a good photo of the scratches, but they are definitely scratches. Luckily they are only noticable when you look really closely in good light. If it was just the scratches, I could live with it.

As to the arrow hand, it looks like the paint finish has not been carried out properly and only part of the area meant to be red has been covered. Where it has not adheared properly it has left a pinkish mark. There is no dust under the glass at all. Just my cr@ppy pic!

I have emailed TTK to see what we can do about it.

Thanks for your input.

T

Edited March 26, 2008 by TommyB

[scoobs1971]

With reps I've learned to live with some occasional flaws. But QC is very important to me. I won't except watches with dust inside, scratched hands, crooked parts or malfunctioning movements. These I will send back immediately or I ask for replacement parts if it's not too difficult for me too replace myself. So yes, I'm picky

In your particular case I would ask the dealer to send a replacement dial, replace it myself and get rid off the dust in the process. If you're not skilled to do it yourself look for a local rep friendly watch smith and ask the collector to compensate your additional cost OR return the watch for a new one.

[Flashman]

In your particular case I would ask the dealer to send a replacement dial, replace it myself and get rid off the dust in the process. If you're not skilled to do it yourself look for a local rep friendly watch smith and ask the collector to compensate your additional cost OR return the watch for a new one.

I will see what TTK comes up with. Getting the dial and second hand changed here would save having to send the watch all round the world again, and there is nothing to say the replacement will be perfect either. At least I know the movement on this one is bang on. I have kept it checked against an atomic clock and it is only out by a few seconds after 2 days.

[radiohead101]

I think since you are buying an item, you should be picky as hell in terms of quality control. I dont think it's ok to be picky in terms of accuracy. I think of it as I'm buying a decently expensive (anything over $100) watch and nothing should come broken or in bad shape. I wouldn't take a $35 radioshack watch if it were broken, so there's no reason to take a $300 replica if it has some weird cosmetic flaw (ie, your second hand)

[TeeJay]

As people have mentioned above, being picky about manufacturing flaws like this, is perfectly reasonable, especially when the item is supposed to be QCd before being sent out. Manufacturing flaws are very different to inaccuracies in replication, so of course, people are entitled to complain if the item is not meeting a certain standard. Best of luck getting the issue resolved

[Corgi]

Shipping back: $25

Shipping from: $25

..so for $50 and a lot of customs worry you can get this replaced.

My advice? Buy yourself another $100 watch from a RELIABLE COLLECTOR (like Narikaa) and use this one as your beater for when you have to do something active, or it's very rainy outside. I would not bother at all with the waiting and pain of sending it back - just never do business with the scumbag who sold you this garbage and switch to a dealer you can trust.

PM me for more info if you need it I'll be happy to help.

[Flashman]

I am in contact with the dealer and hopefully it will all be sorted out. I guess having a replacement dial and second hand would be the best option, so I can get it switched locally, and then maybe a discount off another watch. I will keep you posted.

Mistakes happen and no dealer will be perfect all the time, that is life. I am not about to throw bricks around until I know what will be done about it. I am a serious and level headed noob on a mission to collect some great watches. Shame my first hit missed the mark. Fingers crossed all will be well soon.

I really appreciate everyones comments and feel incredibly glad to have found RWG!

T

[92tru]

did you get this from the 2nd hand forum? or is this from a dealer?

if I was buying new, then I think I would raise this to the dealer and reference the picture on the website which you purchased it from. Sending it back and what not is a huge hassel, but perhaps monetary compensation can help you get that hand painted properly from a watchsmith, perhaps?

im a noob myself and tried my noobish hand at the buy/sell market here. I got a great pam rep that appeared to have a couple flaws on first blush, but after closer examination, it appears to be fine and works good for the money paid.

tips for any buy/sell,

1. get pics, macros, detailed shots as much as possible.

2. get as much info as u can and possibly google background info regarding more pics from other enthusiast sites etc.

3. don't ship UPS.

4. have the seller mark the items as warranty repair, instead of gift.

5. try to get info on the movement, accuracy to the hour, and if all complications are functional

6. ask for any weird odors.. some of these leather straps have sometimes unpleasent smells

7. don't ship UPS.

Edited March 27, 2008 by 92tru

[DemonSlayer]

I think if you were to return it, the dealer should pay for the cost of returning it and shipping it back to you. It clearly wasn't QC'ed very well, and if you paid a premium for QC, I don't think you got your money's worth.

[Flashman]

It was purchased new from TTK, who also did a recent group buy for the Noobmariners on this forum. After I ordered from here, he was kicked off this forum after health issues and a few members kicked off about time delays and contact issues. (I remain totally neutral! ) My contact with him was good, on talking to him when i ordered, he was very informative. Personally I think things got a little too much with his sight issues and the group buy hassle. Payment was easy, delivery by EMS worked well too. He gave me my tracking number the day I confirmed payment to him. But it looks like his QC was a little lacking and this one slipped through.

He has asked me to send pics, which I have sent across to him including a new one of the scratched date window. I am now awaiting his suggestions.

I will not make any judgements until I know which way this is going with the dealer. I guess he won't be going through the hassle of a group buy any time soon. FYI: He is still active on RG.

T

[DemonSlayer]

All most of us are saying is that if you did pay extra for QC, it doesn't appear to have been of a high quality as other members here have carried out. I'm not sure if you read EuroTimez post about his recent batch of Noobs, but his QC seems to be of a very high standard, I bougt a YM and should be here soon, I will see first-hand what his QC is like.

If Neil's health is preventing him from carrying out a proper inspection of the watches he ships out, then he should either not charge and offer any QC, or get someone else to do it for him.