Anyone buy anything from watchmark lately? RE: Frozen payments

[KB]

You ALREADY PAID. If he has problems with his bank that is not YOUR problem. If it was me I would have insisted that he send the watch or I would have initiated a chargeback with Visa. So in my opinion he is doing exactly what he should be doing - shipping merchandise that has already been paid for.

It is my opinion that many dealers here are called "great" when they are somewhat substandard. They may be "great" relative to others in their field, but if someone ever comes along and gives what would generally be considered superior service in the United States - a good warranty, competitive pricing, quality control performed by dealer and NOT the customer, a big inventory to allow immediate shipping, and responsive communications (all emails answered in less than 24 hours), THAT dealer is going to clean the clocks of all the others.

You my friend have chosen the wrong hobby, it's the idiots and their chargebacks that has caused many problems for the dealers (and by extention members) of this and the other rep forums.

Ken

[Pix]

Ken, here's where I would have rated you "AGREE"

JuanG : it is legitimate to worry about where our money is going. But it's true that there are so many scammers around that the boards unperfect dealers are a real asset for our hobby. Imagine that those claiming they do all what you asked for would have probably never shipped the watch.

There's one thing I really learnt : what is important in our eyes is often a detail for others. And QC belong to these "details". It's a fact. The good dealer is the one that handles your complain properly (and Watchmark did it at the end), and the one listening to you AND acting when you have troubles.

[JohnG]

THAT dealer does not exist...

You'll learn that after you tried every single trusted dealer here...

This is an illegal business...after all.

So what? How does the subject of your trade being illegal prevent you from answering emails within 24 hours? It DOES NOT. How does it prevent you from QCing your product better? How does it prevent your from holding inventory and shipping immediately? How does it prevent you from giving customers precise and realistic expectations of shipping times and possible delays? How does it prevent you from doing everything I have suggested? I know that dealer doesn't exist but the day one appears, he is going to rain fire on the competition (or those that don't wake up).

An other thing : initiating immediate chargebacks or filling PP claims is exactly what brings a dealer to see his accounts frozen... That should be the ultimate step. Not the first.

I don't advocate immediate or frivolous chargebacks. But if a dealer receives my payment and refuses to ship you bet your ass I will chargeback. Watchmark has offered to do exactly what he should - namely ship an item that has been paid for. A dealer should not put the burden of his own problems on the customer. He should assume those burdens without complaint. When someone starts acting the way I have suggested, watch how his business flourishes while the others wither.

You my friend have chosen the wrong hobby, it's the idiots and their chargebacks that has caused many problems for the dealers (and by extention members) of this and the other rep forums.

I disagree. If I am a U.S. company and I want to do business (and be successful) in China I must learn their customs and expectations. I cannot expect them to conform to my own habits and standards of what is acceptable. Or perhaps I can but I won't be that successful. Why is it any different here? They guys market and sell their products IN ENGLISH to a largely western client base. If chargebacks are common enough to cause them problems it is not because their customers are idiots its because they are not doing their job.

I have read ALL of the major dealers' shipping and warranty statements. NOWHERE has anyone stated that because the products are shipped from China delays may be expected. No one has stated that EMS tracking information is often poor/delayed (EDIT - Josh does actually state this but he and others fail to note that the delivery times listed on their sites are often grossly incorrect). Nowhere has anyone said whether they QC their watches (except Eurotimez who is not in fact a Chinese dealer). Only Ruby and Andrew specifically mention warranty. Only Ruby specifically states, without ambiguity, what will happen if customs seizes your watch (it will be replaced at her cost). No one states whether the item is kept in stock and if so the time frame for shipping the watch (should be 24 hour processing once payment received).

I have not chosen the wrong hobby because I don't choose my hobby based on dealers who service that hobby. I have chosen a hobby and it just so happens that the dealer service is below par by western standards. I accept that. I am patient. But what I won't do is heap praise on any dealer who does the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of what he should do (ship the item and stand behind it). That is all it takes to earn accolades in the forums - not cheat your customers. If you don't lie and actually ship the item and fix it when it breaks within a relatively short period of time, you are a "great" dealer.

Well I won't say that. I will say they are honest people who are so-so as dealers and there is nothing else out there so I will accept that. But I will speak my mind and if dealers want to stop having problems with chargebacks they could start by looking in the mirror instead of blaming their own customers. How many times have we seen someone jump the gun on a chargeback because the dealer doesn't answer and email for three, four, five days? Those chargebacks could be avoided by simply answering emails and calming anxious or nervous customers. But no, they ignore pleas for information or reassurance or simple answers and then, when they get a chargeback, THE CUSTOMER is the "idiot." Well I call a dealer in that situation the "idiot" because he is the one who suffers. Because he was too lazy to answer an email promptly. Holding a customer's hand is part and parcel of good service and communication. Don't do it and you will have a certain number of chargebacks and PP disputes. That is a simple and unavoidable truth. And that is just ONE of the many ways avoidable problems occur almost daily. Customers should not have to come to these forums to get answers to questions that they have been waiting three days for from the person they have already sent money to - come on!

I don't know why I have to defend such obvious facts. It is one thing to say "Juan, this is what there is, not much we can do" - it is quite another to praise a dealer as being "great" when in fact that is simply not true. Some may be "ok" AT BEST - but there is not one single dealer around that I would call outstanding.

If the dealers like Watchmark want to improve their service they have but to read these forums. The complaints and fears and nervous questions "is this normal?" or "how long should this take?" come in all the time and veterans are the ones doing the hand-holding. Any dealer could come in here and learn as much about what their customers want and expect as I have learned about the reps they sell. Why doesn't any dealer ever start a thread entitled, "how can I improve my service?" "What can I do better?"

The first guy who does that and listens and implements all reasonable and practicable suggestions will RULE this trade.

Edited April 29, 2008 by JuanG

[Pix]

Dozo...

Let's agree to disagree and see how this hobby evolves for you.

I'd really be glad if you could accept that Chinese do not think as we do*, and that's why imperfection will rule the rep world for a while. The day they will have perfect products and service, prepare to pay much more. Besides, those thinking that this can be avoided by going through a western dealer are wrong : this dealer will carry the risk and you will automatically pay for this. They rely on the same sources as we do : there's no other way.

*I said "do not think as we do", without judging... I don't know who's right at the end. And I think much stress comes from our too high expectations. Imagine the dealer that has let's say 10 customers asking him every minute if the bezel is perfectly aligned, if this or that... Not sure if this is so easy.

[Stephane]

You my friend have chosen the wrong hobby, it's the idiots and their chargebacks that has caused many problems for the dealers (and by extention members) of this and the other rep forums.

Ken

Exactly!

I do agree with you Ken as with Pix.

Patience and discussion is the key in this hobby!

Without that, we can all choose another one as there will be no way to make or receive payments anymore.

Plus, let's bear in mind that the majority of the persons involved are not English native: communication is very tricky.

Cheers

Stephane

[Pix]

And I heard that communication with English native persons might be tricky too...sometimes...

Worst is when you speak froglish, we all know that

There's one reality besides : many dealers are not interested in horology as we are. I remember of some asking me "what is AR" or what is a "sandwich dial". Sounds obvious for many, but it isn't.

This can explain many flaws/misunderstandings in a transaction. I personally prefer this to the one knowing everything, as he will scam me without I notice it

[JohnG]

Dozo...

Let's agree to disagree and see how this hobby evolves for you.

I'd really be glad if you could accept that Chinese do not think as we do*, and that's why imperfection will rule the rep world for a while.

I would chalk it up to the fact that capitalism is still in its extreme infancy in China. Sooner or later a dealer will come along who will do much as I have suggested and there will be a real shakeout.

The day they will have perfect products and service, prepare to pay much more.

Maybe, maybe not. I think these guys waste a lot of their own time and money fixing problems that could have been avoided. QC is a area where the extra time spent would be more than offset by a reduction in returned items and lost customers. They would not necessarily have to raise prices to offer better QC. The Japanese produce superior cars at lower cost on U.S. soil using American workers because QC is their holy grail (it is true their plants, the last time I checked, are not unionized, but the workers accept that because they are generally dealt with fairly). The reduction in warranty administration and myriad other related costs more than offset the cost of "getting it right the first time." That is why Japanese auto manufacturers are 3 times more profitable than the big 3 American manufacturers.

Besides, those thinking that this can be avoided by going through a western dealer are wrong

Agreed.

And I think much stress comes from our too high expectations. Imagine the dealer that has let's say 10 customers asking him every minute if the bezel is perfectly aligned, if this or that... Not sure if this is so easy.

Not easy but largely possible. I am not talking about the unreasonable customer - I am speaking of reasonable people with reasonable demands or expectations that must adapt themselves to the dealer and not the other way around.

Seriously, would anybody here argue that a dealer who starts a thread entitled, "How can I improve my business?" is not going to benefit enormously? Few business people have such an intimate and immediate link to their customers as is afforded by these forums. Don't you think such a simple thing would help them as much as us?

If Watchmark started such a thread, would not the feedback be MASSIVE and invaluable?

[JohnG]

As to patience, which is mentioned frequently, I ordered and paid for a SSD from Ruby over a week ago. She has not sent me pics yet (which she usually does prior to sending the item), much less actually shipped it yet. I understand that I must be patient and that that is the price I pay if I want other benefits that come from dealing with her. I also understand that she has a regular job and is not as responsive as some other dealers.

I accept all of that. But there is nothing wrong with pointing out an OBVIOUS AND UNDENIABLE FACT: All of the dealers without exception have a tremendous amount of room for improvement.

If we say these things out loud, clearly and without bitterness or rancor, perhaps that special guy (or gal) will come along, read our comments, and do something really amazing.

[rodwc]

JUAN G,

Forgive me for saying this , but your reasoning and comments have a distinct familiar ring to someone that has

recently been removed from this place, namely TTK.

[JohnG]

JUAN G,

Forgive me for saying this , but your reasoning and comments have a distinct familiar ring to someone that has

recently been removed from this place, namely TTK.

Jesus Christ will people stop with that stuff. I have been accused of being Fakey over at RWG and someone else (I didn't know the member - somebody who is gone now). I understand TTK disappeared and stole a bunch of money from members on one or more forums. I will say the same thing I said at RWG when someone said they were claiming their "5 bucks": if it is proven that I am a sock for ANYONE, I will pay 5 THOUSAND bucks to the person who "outs" me. Of course, if I were TTK I guess that wouldn't be much of a promise but there it is.

There is entirely too much 5th grader bullsh_t going on in these forums and as a result everyone is trying to guess who half the new members are. I have never participated in any of that crap so I don't appreciate being dragged into it.

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with my logic regarding customer service, even if it was also espoused by someone who (ironically) seems to have ripped a bunch of people off...

I am sure that it would be easy to have a mod confirm if my IP is really in Spain but if you did that then you couldn't run around telling others I am TTK. You believe whatever you need to believe.

[robertk]

"I understand TTK disappeared and stole a bunch of money from members on one or more forums. I will say the same thing I said at RWG when someone said they were claiming their "5 bucks": if it is proven that I am a sock for ANYONE, I will pay 5 THOUSAND bucks to the person who "outs" me. Of course, if I were TTK I guess that wouldn't be much of a promise but there it is."

You need to get your facts right, TTK never stole money. He may be guilty of a lot of things...attitude mainly, but he's always delivered the goods, sometimes slowly and with lousy communications.

But he never stole!

[JohnG]

"I understand TTK disappeared and stole a bunch of money from members on one or more forums. I will say the same thing I said at RWG when someone said they were claiming their "5 bucks": if it is proven that I am a sock for ANYONE, I will pay 5 THOUSAND bucks to the person who "outs" me. Of course, if I were TTK I guess that wouldn't be much of a promise but there it is."

You need to get your facts right, TTK never stole money. He may be guilty of a lot of things...attitude mainly, but he's always delivered the goods, sometimes slowly and with lousy communications.

But he never stole!

I don't need to get anything straight. I am not going to apologize for being ignorant or mistaken about the banned or controversial members that I am accused of being a sock for. You can just forget that fantasy right now.

[KB]

Juan it seems you like to use very many words to say very little, therefore let me condense all this for you...

So what? How does the subject of your trade being illegal prevent you from answering emails within 24 hours? It DOES NOT. How does it prevent you from QCing your product better? How does it prevent your from holding inventory and shipping immediately? How does it prevent you from giving customers precise and realistic expectations of shipping times and possible delays? How does it prevent you from doing everything I have suggested? I know that dealer doesn't exist but the day one appears, he is going to rain fire on the competition (or those that don't wake up).

There are many reason for this, a good one is the volume they have to process, but at the end of the day they have a product we want....It's their way or the highway....simple.

But if a dealer receives my payment and refuses to ship you bet your ass I will chargeback. Watchmark has offered to do exactly what he should - namely ship an item that has been paid for.

In three separate posts on the first page Watchmark refers to the fact that the OP's payment will be refunded directly to him so in fact watchmark in agreeing to send the watch is doing so for free and he is placing his trust in the OP to remake the payment when his funds are returned, you wont find another dealer willing to do that....no scrub that....Walmart wouldn't do that!

I disagree. If I am a U.S. company and I want to do business (and be successful) in China I must learn their customs and expectations. I cannot expect them to conform to my own habits and standards of what is acceptable. Or perhaps I can but I won't be that successful. Why is it any different here? They guys market and sell their products IN ENGLISH to a largely western client base. If chargebacks are common enough to cause them problems it is not because their customers are idiots its because they are not doing their job.

Surely you don't believe you can make such open ended comments without having any real experience?

I have been dealing with the point of sale factories for two years now and all I can say is save your expectations and beliefs until you have walked a mile in my shoes.

Trading with Chinese is totally different to anything you will find in the west but rule number one is regardless of how much blame falls on the factory with a wrong or damaged order they must never lose money, the will break even by making the customer ship the item back but they will not ever cover the cost of the return or reship postage.

Yes the customer who will initiate chargebacks without any reason to believe they have been scammed is an idiot or just plain selfish because the end result is Paypal accounts frozen/closed which in turn means other members have to use alternative methods to pay these dealers at an extra cost to themselves.........much there in common with how insider trading is stealing off other stock holders.....the difference here though is members forced to use say WU could be paying an extra $30 per transaction each because of one idiot instead of the pennies in the dollar that you would see in the market.

Ken

[JohnG]

Juan it seems you like to use very many words to say very little, therefore let me condense all this for you...

I don't see the need to get personal but that's of course is entirely up to you. So let's condense it even more. This thread was originally about a possible chargeback and a frozen account due (presumably) to previous chargebacks that made the account "at risk."

You seem to say the Chinese dealer is the way he is and it is unreasonable to hope for him or her to adapt to client expectations (if this is an inaccurate characterization of your comments I am sure you will correct me). But I am also pretty sure that many western clients are "idiots" (I prefer a different characterization for people who become scared when they are ignored after having paid what to them might be a fair sum of money, but we will use your term) and will continue to do chargebacks when they get jittery because a dealer is non-responsive. It is just as true to say that that is just the way it is and it is unreasonable (or at least unrealistic) to expect change. And in fact, just as we have to accept the dealer on his terms, does he have any choice but to accept this unfortunate reality?

My suggestions came from no other desire than to see an improvement in relations between the dealer and the client that would address the root of this problem - the fear, frustration, anger, or ignorance that causes the majority of these chargebacks. Maybe my ideas are not the best or maybe they are in fact unrealistic as has been suggested. But for the life of me I can't figure out why they seem to cause so much tension and hostility.

[KB]

For a start Juan I don't get personal about your idealism (regardless of how misguided it is) but with your belief that chargebacks is a legitimate avenue when trading with our dealers, it is not, clear that thought from your head because we don't want to lose our dealers because of your lack of patience.

Unless a dealer say's "I have your money so stuff you Jack!" then we need to see some proof of a scam before you start any actions, Paypal gives you 45 days to launch a chargeback use them not one or two weeks!

No I don't think asking Chinese dealers/factories to adapt to our western ways of trading as unreasonable but as one who has persistanly tried to do just this for the past two years I do see it as unrealistic.

Maybe you find my use of the term idiot a bit strong, I assure you there are many on these forums that would use far worse terminology especially when a little research on our board will show you that you have jumped straight into the middle of a very sensitive issue we have here, however remember this if you do ever file a Paypal dispute against a dealer they will all blackball you.....then you will only have the scam sites to buy from.

Ken

[JohnG]

For a start Juan I don't get personal about your idealism (regardless of how misguided it is) but with your belief that chargebacks is a legitimate avenue when trading with our dealers, it is not, clear that thought from your head because we don't want to lose our dealers because of your lack of patience.

Unless a dealer say's "I have your money so stuff you Jack!" then we need to see some proof of a scam before you start any actions, Paypal gives you 45 days to launch a chargeback use them not one or two weeks!

No I don't think asking Chinese dealers/factories to adapt to our western ways of trading as unreasonable but as one who has persistanly tried to do just this for the past two years I do see it as unrealistic.

Maybe you find my use of the term idiot a bit strong, I assure you there are many on these forums that would use far worse terminology especially when a little research on our board will show you that you have jumped straight into the middle of a very sensitive issue we have here, however remember this if you do ever file a Paypal dispute against a dealer they will all blackball you.....then you will only have the scam sites to buy from.

Ken

Just to clarify - this thread was not about ME filing a chargeback if that is what you mean. And I don't think it is the way to deal with a slow delivery or any other problem than exactly the one I described where I would use it - if a dealer has my money and REFUSES to ship.

I have not bought any reps (other than the one that I am waiting for now) but I have bought over 100 items on eBay from sellers on four continents and over a dozen countries. I have never so much as looked at the dispute page on PP and wouldn't know where to begin. I have chosen my sellers carefully and I did the same before ordering a watch. I knew before I ordered my first rep what to expect and am not chomping at the bit or impatient (anxious to get it yes).

A chargeback should be the solution of last resort but I understand what motivates many of those who initiate them prematurely AND I think that the dealers themselves could help avoid a lot of these situations. That, in a nutshell, is what I think about the whole thing.

Have we beat it to death yet or is the thread still moving?