Are there issues we should know about...

[TeeJay]

Is it my imagination, or are more and more recommended collectors 'self-destructing'? Where people used to practically worship these collectors, there now seem to be frequent issues with reliability on not just one, but several collectors. Maybe it's just coincidence that these issues are occuring close together, and, as Humans are so oft to do, I'm seeing a pattern when really there is none (ie cloud gazing) Or, is it a sign that dealing on the various fora has stretched these folks beyond their capacity? Although we've never done business, or even really spoken, EuroTimez approach of total disclosure is like a breath of fresh air, to the old excuses of "Well it's a hard business and we take the risks!!!1"

I'm just thinking out-loud...

[Pugwash]

We're due a flare up about now. Complacency has set in.

[Sir-Lancelot]

I think the prices have something to do with it. We are not buying $125 reps anymore. I am happy about that as the new reps are great great great. I don't expect $3000 quality for less than $500, but I do expect the quality to be equal to the money I spend, and I do expect some recourse when problems arise other than to be told it's my problem because I bought a fake.

I have come to appreciate EuroTimez approach and Chris will get my next order.

I wont abandon the others, but IMO if Chris is going to shoot straight with me, then I am going to give him a shot. I have never read where any other dealer openly tell us what to look for so we don't get scammed.

Lies are lies no matter how small or what color they are. I just want to know what I am told is what I will receive.

[bwhitesox]

I've never had a problem with any dealer and infact Josh has gone out of his way on a number of occasions to get me parts etc when he didn't have to.

There is obviously issues with the Asian ETA movements and the high prices of reps but remember to get the quality that we are seeing now original watches are being dissected and this obviously adds to the overall cost of the replica.

I think the dealers at the moment are doing a good job although I would like to see them participating on the forums more.

[Guest Carl]

Having bought watches from several of the "collectors" that are established on the RWG board I have found better hunting elsewhere.

It has taken several years for me to get to this point. I have been very patient and have been very disappointed.

I have found that there is no advantage to dealing with those who are established here.

Lately it has been a distinct disadvantage to me.

I get better service, better watches, and lower prices elsewhere.

You can too.

Carl

[bwhitesox]

Do tell Carl

[Guest Carl]

It depends entirely on what you are looking for.

We might be looking for different watches.

You can PM me if you wish.

[robertk]

Are things getting worse? I don't know. What I do know is that when I was spending $100/$200 for a rep and I had a problem........it bothered me but not a lot. At $500 it BOTHERS me a lot. (not that I spend that kinda money on a rep.......but if I did?)

We're getting better quality reps (with same occasionally dodgy mvmnts) and paying the price. When one of these tank it is a serious issue.

[Corgi]

Josh used to be my dealer of choice, and what problems I did have with him were rectified eventually.

I switched over to Narikaa simply because I appreciate his 'preventative' approach to fixing qc issues, by inspecting watches and choosing the models carefully to ensure I get what i paid for the first time around - not the second, or the third.

I think the mega-dealers have been corrupted by their own popularity, and of course increased revenue associated with that. How many times have I typed something watch-related (but not specifically rep-related) into google and the result was perfect clones or trusty time? Plenty. Lots of people have discovered this hobby (thanks to jackasses who prance around telling the whole world about their super new fake rolexes) and business is going up. Keeping a customer is not as important as it used to be and as a result their approach to business has changed drastically.

In the end, it's up to us, the consumers, to make informed decisions about where we shop because really the only protection we have in this fast-paced, big-money world is ourselves.

[fotoman]

Having bought watches from several of the "collectors" that are established on the RWG board I have found better hunting elsewhere.

It has taken several years for me to get to this point. I have been very patient and have been very disappointed.

I have found that there is no advantage to dealing with those who are established here.

Lately it has been a distinct disadvantage to me.

I get better service, better watches, and lower prices elsewhere.

You can too.

Carl

the purpose of the board is to share info on the watch world - not to create a monopoly for the dealers that are recommended - you should share if you found a pot of gold elsewhere.

i know for a fact its getting more difficult to negotiate down some prices.

[By-Tor]

I get better service, better watches, and lower prices elsewhere.

You can too.

Carl

If there are such dealers, they are welcome at RWG (as apprentices first)... as long as they pay the dealer fee.

This is an open forum, and a HUGE market for good dealers. There are no "official RWG approved dealers", and will never be. Members and supporters are our main concern, and the members ultimately make this place what it is.

[slay]

i have always wondered why there is almost no competition on the forums. if you ask me, its because of two certain dealers.

if the dealer works closely enough with the manufacturer and sells high volume (i.e. more than other dealers) he has control over the market.

i remember the time when paul had the big monopoly and was bragging about driving a porsche etc. (the good old abay-eshop days..)

[TeeJay]

Sorry folks, I didn't expect it to be this long bvefore I could get back to the computer, it's been a long day....

Not directed at By-Tor personally, but to touch upon the points raised in the post:

This is an open forum, and a HUGE market for good dealers. There are no "official RWG approved dealers", and will never be. Members and supporters are our main concern, and the members ultimately make this place what it is.

While this is certainly true, I dont believe that this is how the information is conveyed to newcomers to the forum(s). Such n00bs are often told (when asking about A N Other dealer) to buy from (insert Cartel Dealer of choice here) instead, as they offer super-dooper, Triple A Grade service, and are 'forum recommended'.

I consider it somewhat conflicted for dealers to be able to have 'a pitch' here (even if it is at their expense), with all the benefits which come with it, (even if they are not 'officially sanctioned') only to have a comment that there are no 'official approved dealers'. If they are not approved, they should not be allowed to have a pitch here. Again, I might be 'cloud watching', but that is certainly how that situation is being described: On one hand, people are told "iOffer/CQOut dealers are scammers, our dealers are trusted, buy from our dealers," but on the other hand, told "There are no sanctioned dealers..." That does sound somewhat contradictory to me...

As I pointed out when starting this thread, there would appear to be some dealers, who, recently, have not been up to snuff, yet, all the time their practices are allowed to go unchecked, then the members who are mentioned as the main concern, are at risk from their practices...

[Pugwash]

On one hand, people are told "iOffer/CQOut dealers are scammers, our dealers are trusted, buy from our dealers," but on the other hand, told "There are no sanctioned dealers..." That does sound somewhat contradictory to me...

You're mistaking members for moderators.

Members go around singing praises of Josh/Andrew and informing noobs that the iOffer route is a minefield. Moderators, the forum officials, don't.

[Pugwash]

Oh, and people don't like being overly honest about cartel dealers because they fear they may lose their rep supply. Dealers have blacklists and many noobs that get bad treatment would simply disappear thinking the whole rep game an elaborate scam.

[jeff g]

It seems that on this forum for the most part the Cartel dealers are the dealers of choice.

On a number of the other popular forums there seems to be a few more choices, especially a couple of CONUS dealers that I have recently dealt with

who are not drop shippers. Makes all the difference in the world. I am so sick of receiving watches with mis aligned dial indices and bezels, that buying from the Cartel has become an effort in futility.

I agree too, that the game has changed in the last few years. The really good reps are definitely way more expensive than in the past, but for the most part

they are of better quality than in the past. Speaking personally, they last three watches I have purchased were EXPENSIVE relatively speaking. EL's 3717, after Z's modding and ETA swap was a 750.00 watch. MBW/MBK PP Nautilus after ETA service is now a 650.00 watch, and the beautiful BSO Heritage, with eta servicing now a 450.00 watch. The days of the asian 21J for 150.00 seem to be over. For the most part my experience with the 20 (+) reps I have purchased in the last 5 years is that if you do not service them is that eventually they will just up and quit running one day. When the average price was 125.00 to 250.00

per watch, when they quit working I threw them in the old watch drawer. Those days are over.

Finding a good dealer, establishing a relationship, and giving them most of your business only makes sense. I don't believe you can do that effectively with a 'drop shipper'.

I agree too, with the notion that these forums are created for sharing good information. If Carl has found the golden goose (or Geese), please have him share the info with all of us.

FWIW.

[TeeJay]

You're mistaking members for moderators.

Members go around singing praises of Josh/Andrew and informing noobs that the iOffer route is a minefield. Moderators, the forum officials, don't.

I quite agree with that, but, all the time there are any dealers listed on forums, there will always be the assumption (and we all know how bad those can be ) that their presense is due to a level of endorsement on the part of the officials. Or rather, a reverse almost. If dealers were utterly unreliable, they would not be tollerated at all. The fact they are tollerated, gives rise to the opinion that that is official, even if that is not, technically speaking, the 'party line'... That is why I felt, that for an official to turn round and say "There are no recommended dealers..." could appear somewhat contradictory. The fact that the impression might be incorrect, does not prevent that impression from appearing...

Oh, and people don't like being overly honest about cartel dealers because they fear they may lose their rep supply. Dealers have blacklists and many noobs that get bad treatment would simply disappear thinking the whole rep game an elaborate scam.

Oh definitely the case. Maybe if there were more options available, people wouldn't feel the need to rely solely on the Cartel, although, in all honesty, given the levels of anal behaviour and unreasonable demands exhibited by some, who would willingly want to submit themselves to that potential abuse... (regardless of the cash which would be made)

[TeeJay]

It seems that on this forum for the most part the Cartel dealers are the dealers of choice.

On a number of the other popular forums there seems to be a few more choices, especially a couple of CONUS dealers that I have recently dealt with

who are not drop shippers. Makes all the difference in the world. I am so sick of receiving watches with mis aligned dial indices and bezels, that buying from the Cartel has become an effort in futility.

I agree too, that the game has changed in the last few years. The really good reps are definitely way more expensive than in the past, but for the most part

they are of better quality than in the past. Speaking personally, they last three watches I have purchased were EXPENSIVE relatively speaking. EL's 3717, after Z's modding and ETA swap was a 750.00 watch. MBW/MBK PP Nautilus after ETA service is now a 650.00 watch, and the beautiful BSO Heritage, with eta servicing now a 450.00 watch. The days of the asian 21J for 150.00 seem to be over. For the most part my experience with the 20 (+) reps I have purchased in the last 5 years is that if you do not service them is that eventually they will just up and quit running one day. When the average price was 125.00 to 250.00

per watch, when they quit working I threw them in the old watch drawer. Those days are over.

Finding a good dealer, establishing a relationship, and giving them most of your business only makes sense. I don't believe you can do that effectively with a 'drop shipper'.

I agree too, with the notion that these forums are created for sharing good information. If Carl has found the golden goose (or Geese), please have him share the info with all of us.

FWIW.

I agree with all of what you've said there I admit, I've had success with 'out of the box' Asian reps, but, I know they'll need servicing eventually (probably sooner rather than later) indeed, that's why I haven't worn my 127 for a while... It's being serviced

[By-Tor]

@TeeJay: All the dealers are ultimately "approved by the membership". The positive/negative feedback comes from them.

I, for example, never suggest a newbie to buy from a certain dealer, except if I know that he has the best version of some particular replica. Being a admin team member doesn't make any difference, I always had the same principle.

In that sense I've never understood the saying "First choose your dealer, then choose your watch". I think it's utterly idiotic advice, because the right way to approach this thing is to first find the correct, most accurate replica model and then start looking for the dealers who sell it. Of course the post-sales service play a big part, but I guess all current longtime dealers must have those things covered quite well.

Our dealers aren't "officially approved", because

1. They're constantly watched by the membership and the admin team. Nobody's place in this forum has been carved in stone.

2. They play a small dealer's fee (which is ridiculously low, may I add...). They're only "renting" a sales section here, not owning it. They're not telling the admin team how the forum should be run, either. We make all our decisions based on the interests of the membership. They are our first priority, not the dealers.

We can always play with words, but that's how I see it. If you have been around for years (as a dealer) you have already proven yourself over and over again... and if you're planning to be a dealer (long-term) you still have to prove yourself, in your every single transaction.

3. We don't, ultimately, take the responsibility for the dealers and their (occasionally bad) transactions. We only approve/unapprove their sales section, not guarantee anyone's delivery.

Hopefully this explains my previous post, and my choice of words better. Whatever terminology I should use, I don't know... does it really matter? I think you get the idea.

Thanks man.

[Pugwash]

In that sense I've never understood the saying "First choose your dealer, then choose your watch". I think it's utterly idiotic advice, because the right way to approach this thing is to first find the correct, most accurate replica model and then start looking for the dealers who sell it.

You know I agree with you on that one. Nothing bugs me more than "First choose your dealer".

[sssurfer]

Is it my imagination, or are more and more recommended collectors 'self-destructing'?

Am I missing something? Who self-distructed?

[P4GTR]

We're due a flare up about now. Complacency has set in.

I ran out of hemorrhoid cream about a week ago. Biting --->

[TeeJay]

@TeeJay: All the dealers are ultimately "approved by the membership". The positive/negative feedback comes from them.

I, for example, never suggest a newbie to buy from a certain dealer, except if I know that he has the best version of some particular replica. Being a admin team member doesn't make any difference, I always had the same principle.

In that sense I've never understood the saying "First choose your dealer, then choose your watch". I think it's utterly idiotic advice, because the right way to approach this thing is to first find the correct, most accurate replica model and then start looking for the dealers who sell it. Of course the post-sales service play a big part, but I guess all current longtime dealers must have those things covered quite well.

Our dealers aren't "officially approved", because

1. They're constantly watched by the membership and the admin team. Nobody's place in this forum has been carved in stone.

2. They play a small dealer's fee (which is ridiculously low, may I add...). They're only "renting" a sales section here, not owning it. They're not telling the admin team how the forum should be run, either. We make all our decisions based on the interests of the membership. They are our first priority, not the dealers.

We can always play with words, but that's how I see it. If you have been around for years (as a dealer) you have already proven yourself over and over again... and if you're planning to be a dealer (long-term) you still have to prove yourself, in your every single transaction.

3. We don't, ultimately, take the responsibility for the dealers and their (occasionally bad) transactions. We only approve/unapprove their sales section, not guarantee anyone's delivery.

Hopefully this explains my previous post, and my choice of words better. Whatever terminology I should use, I don't know... does it really matter? I think you get the idea.

Thanks man.

Thanks for explaining, that certainly clarifies things, I guess what I was meaning, was that once dealers are 'approved', it is very rare for a dealer to be 'unapproved' (unless they get personal TTK-style), and that can make it appear, that if a dealer si going through a rough patch, as if they are still being treated as 'approved' by the admin, rather than a closer eye being paid to their practices. As I said before, this is just 'cloud gazing'. It's probably no more than putting two and two together to make five. I was simply commenting on things as I saw them.

Am I missing something? Who self-distructed?

Maybe the choice of words was a little 'adventurous', but there have recently been quite a few issues regarding DSN, where six months ago, he was the Golden Boy when it came to PAMs, and it made me wonder what kind of scrutiny the admin pay to dealers, and at what point do they decide that they're not providing a good service anymore, and no longer eligible to have their space here as a dealer. I'm not saying DSN should be banned, not at all, I am simply using him as an example of the situation of how there can be instances of a dealer falling below the acceptable level, but not facing any visible sanctions from the admin... That's all

[sssurfer]

Maybe the choice of words was a little 'adventurous', but there have recently been quite a few issues regarding DSN, where six months ago, he was the Golden Boy when it came to PAMs...

Thanks for the clarification, TJ. So, if I now correctly understand, it was "just" a wondering triggered by the current DSN occurrences on his QC.

Personally I cannot see a pattern, I rather feel it as a specific matter about DSN and his special moment. With his new auto releases he just left his traditional niche (spare / replacement parts, a few selected models especially vintage and base) to enter the arena of larger sales in direct competition with larger dealers.

I can speculate that this brought a raise in volume of his sales that caught him not completely prepared, and his QC suffered from it.

In this case he might just need the time to rearrange his procedures in order to set his QC back again to his traditional standards.

At least I hope it.

[fakemaster]

Is it my imagination, or are more and more recommended collectors 'self-destructing'?

It's not your imagination.