TJGladeRaider Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 In light of all the recent rhetoric regarding the usage of the word "perfect" as it relates to certain replicas by some of our most trusted dealers, and keeping in mind that most of the most trusted dealers that we have here do not speak English as their natural language, I do not think criticism is warranted. It's not for me to speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see his use of the word "perfect" as an effort to convince me that these watches are literally perfect -- maybe there is someone on this board who believes in the existence of such a thing, but it certainly is not me, I don't think it's any of you that I know, and the suggestion that anyone is using the word in an effort to deceive is insulting to our intelligence, and theirs. In trying to be fair, I think we all would readily acknowledge that Eddie Lee has been using the word "Best" to describe his Subs and SD's for some time now. If a dealer were to take a comparable product, and then have it properly service, timed and waterproofed, I can see why he would choose to call it something better than "Best," especially if he was explicitly offering a replacement waterproof guarantee. I have to ask myself, assuming I could manage to learn to speak Chinese at all, "How long would it take for me to master the distinction between various shades of meaning?" So I postulate this question to any English speaking person who would be critical of our dealer's choice of words as being tantamount to fraud, "What word would you use . . . in Chinese?" I have never bought a watch of any kind from Andrew, but I have read enough reviews to know that his reputation is excellent, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the watches he is selling as "serviced" have, in fact, been serviced and it seems a no-brainer to me that his claim that they used imported Swiss lubricants is true. If they are actually going to tear down the movements and guarantee their work, why wouldn't they use the proper lubricants? If, as others have reported and I suspect, Andrew is selling a serviced version of the TW Best I bought from Eddie Lee, it has to be one very nice piece and it may very well be as nice as the serviced watches I have boought thru Joshua. Considering the completely crooked nature of most of the rep industry, I think the fact that dealers like him (and Joshua before him) are doing everything they can do to make the best possible product available at a reasonable price is commendable. If they want to call these things "Pope perfect," that's just fine by me. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 In light of all the recent rhetoric regarding the usage of the word "perfect" as it relates to certain replicas by some of our most trusted dealers, and keeping in mind that most of the most trusted dealers that we have here do not speak English as their natural language, I do not think criticism is warranted. It's not for me to speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see his use of the word "perfect" as an effort to convince me that these watches are literally perfect -- maybe there is someone on this board who believes in the existence of such a thing, but it certainly is not me, I don't think it's any of you that I know, and the suggestion that anyone is using the word in an effort to deceive is insulting to our intelligence, and theirs. In trying to be fair, I think we all would readily acknowledge that Eddie Lee has been using the word "Best" to describe his Subs and SD's for some time now. If a dealer were to take a comparable product, and then have it properly service, timed and waterproofed, I can see why he would choose to call it something better than "Best," especially if he was explicitly offering a replacement waterproof guarantee. I have to ask myself, assuming I could manage to learn to speak Chinese at all, "How long would it take for me to master the distinction between various shades of meaning?" So I postulate this question to any English speaking person who would be critical of our dealer's choice of words as being tantamount to fraud, "What word would you use . . . in Chinese?" I have never bought a watch of any kind from Andrew, but I have read enough reviews to know that his reputation is excellent, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the watches he is selling as "serviced" have, in fact, been serviced and it seems a no-brainer to me that his claim that they used imported Swiss lubricants is true. If they are actually going to tear down the movements and guarantee their work, why wouldn't they use the proper lubricants? If, as others have reported and I suspect, Andrew is selling a serviced version of the TW Best I bought from Eddie Lee, it has to be one very nice piece and it may very well be as nice as the serviced watches I have boought thru Joshua. Considering the completely crooked nature of most of the rep industry, I think the fact that dealers like him (and Joshua before him) are doing everything they can do to make the best possible product available at a reasonable price is commendable. If they want to call these things "Pope perfect," that's just fine by me. Bill Language issues aside, and I agree, they are significant and some considerable slack should given, I agree with By-Tor's statement in the other thread that perhaps the perfect claims tweak a sensitive nerve in some replica patronizers in that we would LOVE to see a perfect sub. It looks like it would be so easy to do. That being said, yes the dealers here are an honest bunch and a group conscience approved lot they are in an unmonitored, illegal, ungoverned, no national or international standardized enterprise. I have no doubt we get the best available with the smallest [censored] factor. But I'd still love to see that "perfect" sub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertrinaustin Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I agree Bill. Let's get these guys/ gals some slack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher71 Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I disagree...just my opinion, but an opinion nonetheless. Granted, none of the more active members who have been around for more than a couple weeks will be persuaded by the term "perfect", but with the influx of newbs who come here on a daily basis thinking they have found the place where advertising will be upfront, the term "perfect" is misleading. Aside from that, I would think dealers would refrain from saying "perfect" because the anal WIS will quickly go through and show each and every reason/flaw why the rep is in fact not "perfect". Counterproductive advertising to a point... I do not doubt the integrity of any of our dealers (even Neil). I just happen to thinik that "perfect" is over reaching. And I certianly do not think that so-called language barriers are the issue. Our dealers know darn well what the word "perfect" means to a forum filled with anal-retentive rep experts...and they should know what the term "perfect" means to a bunch of rolex-hungry and crazed newbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 What happens if, somehow, there were a perfect rep? And how about the problems with synthetic sapphire sometimes being mineral crystal, while genuine sapphire denotes genuine sapphire? Not much fun when the "synthetic sapphire" crystal gets scratched! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) I believe dealers use terms like "best" or "ultimate" "or "Perfect" in order to distinguish between the "new and improved" current model, and older models. And while I have no objection to using "best" or "ultimate", I feel that "Perfect" - unless it is truly perfect – can be misleading, and should not be used. I think the system the PO seems to have adopted is the best. everyone knows the 4th gen is the newest and bestest; knows all the flaws; and the differences between it and the 3rd gen. It seems much more clear and concise. Edited July 12, 2006 by Nebakanezzar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Please. Andrew knows the gramtical function of "inverted commas" but he doesn't know the definition of the word "perfect?" I'm perfectly willing to (and do) cut dealers all they slack they could reasonably want, and I wouldn't have gone after andrew if this were an isolated incident (and probably not at all if he hadn't stolen $120 from me) but anyone who's been here more than a month knows he's always calling some watch 99.9% or 1:1 or ultimate or perfect when in fact, not only it isn't any of those things, but even when objectively better versions are available. I don't care whether you're selling bibles, or cars, or crack, or watches. You're either an honest guy or you're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 The problem is not for us - those who read this thread and post. The problem is for the newbie who doesn't know the flaws and just wants a rep. Seems misleading to that person, probably 95% of buyers, to use the terminology that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 The problem is not for us - those who read this thread and post. The problem is for the newbie who doesn't know the flaws and just wants a rep. Seems misleading to that person, probably 95% of buyers, to use the terminology that way. true, but if said newbie does not take the time to search and learn, it is his own damn fault. And even if he does buy a not so "ultimate" or "perfect" rep, he will still be getting a damn good watch at a damn good price...much better than if said newbie had not found this place and went with a scam site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebakanezzar Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Please. Andrew knows the gramtical function of "inverted commas" but he doesn't know the definition of the word "perfect?" I'm perfectly willing to (and do) cut dealers all they slack they could reasonably want, and I wouldn't have gone after andrew if this were an isolated incident (and probably not at all if he hadn't stolen $120 from me) but anyone who's been here more than a month knows he's always calling some watch 99.9% or 1:1 or ultimate or perfect when in fact, not only it isn't any of those things, but even when objectively better versions are available. I don't care whether you're selling bibles, or cars, or crack, or watches. You're either an honest guy or you're not. I dont think it is fair to single out Andrew, I think other dealers such as Eddie and Joshua are just as guilty of useing terms like best, ultimate or 1:1.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehtolcad Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 bill, i'd love to agree with you but i just can't. the problem that i have with using the word perfect is the same problem that i had when people were using the 1:1 bit - it's just not true in every case. 'perfect' and '1:1' both mean something. it is different than 'best' in that best can be used to illustrate that it is the best available. i had a laugh when paul called his sub the 'so-called untimate sub' (sic) because it's likely that the ultimate, perfect, best, or 1:1 models that are out right now will be better in 6 months. perhaps i'll be wrong and this will be the best that we'll ever get, but only time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest overboosted Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Maybe things like this aren't really geared towards us. With additions of webstores, the dealers now have people finding them from places other than the upper echelon of rep collecting. But what happens when they fix the issues on the perfect sub? Better perfect? Extra perfect? We all know our dealers arent ripping anyone off,,,the shame is the scam sites selling 100% perfect Italian Swiss 36 jewel subs for $1000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4fun Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 But what happens when they fix the issues on the perfect sub? Better perfect? Extra perfect? How about "more perfect" or " most perfect" ? Sorry for my poor english. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 How about "perfecter"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hottoddy Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 "Perfect" is fine if you want to come across as a used car salesman. Dealers have ever right to use that term, and we have every right to not buy from those dealers. I think it's a regrettable choice. While I understand the true meaning, I tend to shy away from dealers who take that marketing approach. Why not market these watches as "Upgraded" or "Modified." After all, that's what the after market watch gurus do these watches. Clear or obvious is a word I don't use much, but these reps are clearly/obviously not "perfect." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I think they're pushing it when they say perfect... If you want perfect, then get a genuine... which are sometimes not so friggin perfect either and the repair bill will remind you of that every time (remember Admin)... 1:1 is a non-subjective term that should be used only if it is truly 1:1... Seems like 1:1 means different things to different people. 1:1 to me means the case IS copied exactly (give or take a micron or so here or there) from the genuine. What irks me the most is this 'synthetic sapphire' description... or worse saying it is sapphire when it surely is not. This should be stopped. This has been discussed in a previous thread... Of course 'real' sapphire crystals on watches are synthetic sapphire, but if they're mineral, they should not be called sapphire or synthetic sapphire. There also seems to be some chinese unitas engraved movements with swan neck creeping in... They are touted as swiss, but are clearly not if you look at them with a loupe. The watch I received with one of these in them was sold as swiss... But I believe that even the dealers may be being scammed by the manufacturer and are told that they are eta swiss.... This adds a whole new layer of issues in regards to getting what we're actually ordering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfectionist Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 You mean some dealers actually Service the watches before they send them out ? ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 true, but if said newbie does not take the time to search and learn, it is his own damn fault. And even if he does buy a not so "ultimate" or "perfect" rep, he will still be getting a damn good watch at a damn good price...much better than if said newbie had not found this place and went with a scam site. I disagree. IMO this website and others like it should provide as honest an environment for buying reps as possible, and I do not believe that it is in anyone's interest to make newbies engage in some kind of trial by fire before they can buy with confidence from our dealers. I also do not believe that language barrier defense is legitimate in fact. I would note that the dealers who are most fluent in English on this site most often use terms like best, perfect and ultimate and are also responsible for calling glass sapphire, etc. I have never seen any indication that Neil, EL, River, Joshua, PT and Andrew are anything other than highly proficient or fluent in English, and it's frankly an insult to their intelligence and ours to suggest now that they barely know how to string sentences together. Besides, THESE SAME GUYS were calling their reps things like "90-95%" before the recent war of hyperbole, am I really supposed to think that they suddenly all unlearned their English? Please. Actually, it's the dealers who seem to be less fluent who are less hyperbolic. For example, Paul is honest enough to call his Sub the "so-called ultimate sub." And if you must make language an issue, there are many more English-challenged members than there are dealers. But some people are so paranoid about guarding their supply (and therefore kissing dealer ass as if that really makes a difference) that they could care less about their fellow members and their needs. Is that why we have a community of rep enthusiasts here? I think the war of words should stop, and dealers should let their products speak for themselves. People say it doesn't matter if dealers use terms like 1:1 or perfect because most people understand that's not true. But if that's the case, why wouldn't it be even better to leave those things unsaid? No one has explained that to my satisfaction. I agree "best" is best. Easy to understand, not misleading (assuming true), dealer makes his point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 OK . . . so who has the best Sub ?? The Sandwich Factory on Market St. moron! Oh come on people . . . shouldn't call it perfect ???? People may join here or the other forums who are new to reps, but I seriously doubt they are new to buying stuff. I'd even bet that everyone here, new or not has seen commercials on TV, heard them on the radio, read them in newspapers and in magazines. What about that favorite cleaner you've been using for years, or soap, shampoo, the beer you're drinking? Or even the brand of whipcream you use . . . ok, never mind about the whipcream . . . some newbie marketing genius for brand A comes up with a new bottle design, new colors & puts "New and Improved" on it? Do you really think it's new & improved? I think what the hell kind of junk were you selling me all those years! Yea, right, new and improved . . . I do agree with swdivad that 1:1 means case, and a step further, in that it will accept genuine parts w/o mods, like a MBW . . . but I would take the extra step and ask the dealer to be sure, or post the question to the board. And cray . . . "The problem is for the newbie who doesn't know the flaws and just wants a rep. Seems misleading to that person, probably 95% of buyers, to use the terminology that way." Buy any watch from our dealers here and you're not going to get scammed for quality or price, and that is exactly what these forums intended to do. Yea, maybe with some real reading and research, not just jumping to the dealer's section a person could find a better, more accurate rep . . . maybe, but still shouldn't be disapointed or feel ripped off about their watch. "Perfect" is every bit as subjective as "best." Don't believe me ?? OK, guys, what is the "perfect" woman ?? Girls, what is the "perfect" guy ?? Hell with reps . . . what is the "perfect" watch?? "Perfect" CD to play on a first date?? The "perfect" car?? And you can substitue "ultimate" or best" for perfect in any of those. How about real life marketing ?? No offense Beemer fanatics, but . . . "BMW The ultimate driving machine." Sorry not to me . . . This is getting too anal for even a forum full of replica watch freaks and fanatics that obsess over the wrong font in a line on a watch that you need to magnify 4 times to even read . . . JMHO . . . but really . . . B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher71 Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I disagree. IMO this website and others like it should provide as honest an environment for buying reps as possible, and I do not believe that it is in anyone's interest to make newbies engage in some kind of trial by fire before they can buy with confidence from our dealers. I also do not believe that language barrier defense is legitimate in fact. I would note that the dealers who are most fluent in English on this site most often use terms like best, perfect and ultimate and are also responsible for calling glass sapphire, etc. I have never seen any indication that Neil, EL, River, Joshua, PT and Andrew are anything other than highly proficient or fluent in English, and it's frankly an insult to their intelligence and ours to suggest now that they barely know how to string sentences together. Besides, THESE SAME GUYS were calling their reps things like "90-95%" before the recent war of hyperbole, am I really supposed to think that they suddenly all unlearned their English? Please. Actually, it's the dealers who seem to be less fluent who are less hyperbolic. For example, Paul is honest enough to call his Sub the "so-called ultimate sub." And if you must make language an issue, there are many more English-challenged members than there are dealers. But some people are so paranoid about guarding their supply (and therefore kissing dealer ass as if that really makes a difference) that they could care less about their fellow members and their needs. Is that why we have a community of rep enthusiasts here? I think the war of words should stop, and dealers should let their products speak for themselves. People say it doesn't matter if dealers use terms like 1:1 or perfect because most people understand that's not true. But if that's the case, why wouldn't it be even better to leave those things unsaid? No one has explained that to my satisfaction. I agree "best" is best. Easy to understand, not misleading (assuming true), dealer makes his point. So true... Very good points. (and to clarify, I did not (and do not) take issue with dealers selling modded/serviced watches. That is great IMO because we dont have to waste time and money sending the watch out later.) But there is a big distinction between "best" and "perfect". "perfect" has one meaning...and one meaning only. And quite frankly, it is a meaning that will never be realized in this industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caaronb Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Can't believe that people are getting their panties in a bunch over a vendor using a bit of "poetic license" to advertise his/her wares. Since when is advertising 100% accurate? Did anyone here experience an uncontrollable and instantaneous urge to automatically hit the buy button as soon as he/she saw the word perfect? Who doesn't practice a bit of due diligence when making a purchase of this nature? As in all cases, BUYER BEWARE, if you buy a replica expecting a perfect replica because it says "perfect" in the description, and then you're disappointed to find that it isn't 100% accurate, then guess what, you're an IDIOT. Newbs (me included) and buyers do not have to be protected by the truth in advertising police. Expect advertising to use a bit of "spin" to attract buyers. Do your homework, share opinions, and ask around. Believe it or not, I read the description of the "perfect" sub and did not believe that it was a 100% accurate. I'll wait until those more experienced than I share their opinions, i'll read the reviews of buyers, and then form my own opinion. Good luck to all and give the silver-tongued vendors a bit of slack to gloss their goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Perfect in this context is very different than saying "perfect" woman. It is a subjective vs. objective test. The woman test is subjective. The watch test - objective (for perfection). A perfect replica would match the genuine in every way such that they are indistinguishable. Anything less than that is less than perfect. Ultimate, Best, etc are different than perfect or 1:1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caaronb Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Perfect in this context is very different than saying "perfect" woman. It is a subjective vs. objective test. The woman test is subjective. The watch test - objective (for perfection). A perfect replica would match the genuine in every way such that they are indistinguishable. Anything less than that is less than perfect. Ultimate, Best, etc are different than perfect or 1:1 Well...actually...your argument is a completely subjective one in and of itself...from your frame of reference the "watch test" is an objective one...from my frame of reference, and many other less concerned citizens of the world...this particular watch test is merely a subjective one (and it would probably fail that one as well). Your subjectivity confounds the desired objectivity of your watch test...even should this obvious obfuscation be allowed to pass, the "perfect rep" would be a mutually exclusive phrase for self-evident reasons. So it would be PREPOSTEROUS for any reasonably intelligent individual to really dwell upon this glaring conundrum. Friends, let this pass. Should one ruminate too long upon such trivialities, one is bound to... Talk about beating a dead donkey with a broken stick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 You mean some dealers actually Service the watches before they send them out ? ! Yes, but it costs extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 How about "perfecter"? Perfect, plus perfect, double-plus perfect. We were never at war with Eurasia. Big Brother loves you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.