Just Some Words From The Bottom Of Our Hearts

[trustywatchguy]

Dear guys,

I have been lurking in the forums recently and I think I really want to take some time to say something which I feel very strong for. I have been trading for almost 4-5 years now even before RWG 1 started. Till today, I have moved on to creating a website to sell watches to fellow members and to anyone who love the hobby of collecting replica watches..

From RWG 1 to RWG 2 and with TRC, RWI and WT still around, members are starting to take things for granted. Everytime when there are new watches which are launched, members do not really appreciate how hard the makers and how hard we dealers source to get you the watches.. instead posts like.. "Wait for 2nd version...3rd version" will surface and all in all, everyone just hold their horses and we will see people scrutinise the entire watch for quality checks.

For god's sake... that is a replica watch. Why is everyone treating this like a genuine watch? I have seen makers who tried hard to create some watches but despair at the way the sales went. To me, I am not directly affected as I do not make the watches. I take from them to sell... but without good sales, the makers will lose money and in the end..down the pipeline.. every time the maker wants to make another new replica, they will think twice. Just my 2 cents worth..

Members nowadays also think we dealers are living a high life selling replicas. Let me tell you guys that the situation over here in China is getting from bad to worse. Suppliers and Dealers like us are now HIT in this supply chain... Authorities are checking packages going out from China and worse of all, we keep losing money to lost packages to customs due to worldwide strict customs due to pressure from the US government on Intell. rights. Personally, I have lost about USD2000 last week because of this... I know it's the risks we have inherent to this trade but customers I have do not understand and start to accuse me of not sending the items even after I explain clearly what happened. Sorting centers have been closed and remaining ones are very strict on checks. Bribery is so common just to get packages out. =P

The money from this risky trade will never be able to cover the kind of risks I, EL, Jos, TTK and other dealers are taking. We risk being thrown behind bars, face sentences..fines..etc. I am not venting any anger but just sharing from a dealer's point of view. Spoken to some dealers recently and seems customs problems is pretty vast and common nowadays.. wholesalers I know are also facing the same problems..

Thanks for hearing and have a nice weekend.

Ciao

Andrew

Edited July 16, 2006 by trustywatchguy

[Bignasty]

Thanks for joining in on the threads! We appreciate everything all of our dealers do for us! I think it is sometimes hard to remember that these are reps because you guys keep offering such great new pieces!

Cheers,

Jon

[Gerco]

Hi Andrew,

Not every customer is taking everything for granted. I respect all of you guys to make it possible to put on a very special watch on my wrist every single day. A watch I could NOT effort to buy as a gen. Everyday I put a watch on with a big smile on my face.

Maybe it is time for a customer review topic on this forum, so the dealers know what kind of custumer you're dealing with. I think it's easy to make a anonymous posting, only limited to the dealers. It will wash out the wannabees & troublemakers....

Keep up the good works & high spirits !

Gerco (NL)

Edited July 16, 2006 by Gerco

[Usil]

Trustywatchguy was my first dealer and I have bought several reps from him. I know that there are risks involved for all and I am thankful that dealers provide the service that they do for guys like us who enjoy this as a hobby.

I have seen many of the posts here from those that just don't get it and have unrealistic demands and expectations. It has been said many times here that we should never use money that we can not afford to loose. That is the price of doing what we do. Sometimes, things just do not work out and we need to move on. If we can not accept this then we should not even attempt to purchase reps. The dealers here do there very best to satisfy us in the sales and many bend over backwards, sometimes to their loss, to keep us happy. I know that and most of the others here do too. Unfortunately, many are forgetting exactly what we are all doing here. I can not imagine a much harder business to be in for the dealers with so many obstacles.

Frankly, if this all went away, I would suffer withdrawal as I love the reps I have purchased and count myself lucky that I have so many nice watches. I appreciate the dealers who have provided them to me and I would like to think that I will be able to do this for years to come. So, please accept the thanks from most of us here and those that are sour about the whole process, just forget them as they are not representative of the rest of us.

As for some of the comments about the 'next versions', this is a community where much is discussed and hopes are expressed. Just because we say these things does not prevent us from buying. It is just community talk amongst ourselves.

We appreciate your efforts.

Usil

Edited July 16, 2006 by Usil

[Quarks]

Andrew, well said. Reps are reps and will forever be reps. The closer the reps are getting to look like gens, there are bound to be those anal few who will scrutinise the minute details to the tiniest dot. Some members don't realise how lucky we are to have you dealers around with excellent customer service barnone. I have always ordered from Josh and he has always looked after my needs. And I cant reiterate enough how truely appreciative I am for the service he has provided me. In return I offered to buy him a few drinks this June when I was back in Singapore (and he offered to call you along as well Andrew ), but unfortunately, the meetup wasnt meant to be as Josh was off to China.

Andrew, I have read your posts for the past few weeks or so and have seen members throwing in 'petty attacks' on the way you advertised your watches. I felt it was unfair to you. Even though I have yet to make a purchase off you, from the way you expressed yourself on the forums as well as excellent reviews on the dealer review section, I can see that you are a honest and a trustworthy person. I'm sure there are a lot more people in this forum who appreciate your efforts. I would like to thank you for your honest opinions on this matter. I'm sure (and I hope) it will open the eyes of those who have been taking things for granted for what we have here in these forums.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best and I hope to do business with you in the near future Andrew. Keep up the excellent work.

[kdo2milger]

Its too bad that sorting centers are being closed, and others are being forced to be much more strict on package inspections.

It is even worse that the avarage persona here take for granite how difficult and risky it is just for our dealers here to do business.

And thirdly, I just want to say that I appreciate everything that the dealers here have done for me and everyone else.

It is also dissapointing to see that it is becoming more difficult to get watches out of the country, and I hope that our dealers will do everything they can to continue to keep the prices reasonable.

I love my collection, and will continue to for a long time to come.

I will be home for a short vacation from my deployment in a few more days. I will have a LOT of pics for the forum then. I am excited to get home not just for the watches, but for my better half too

[kingkitesurf]

Andrew (and others like Josh, PT, TTK etc),

Let's not forget that there are a lot people on the board here that really appreciate and admire what you bring us. You let everyone of us feel special with a special good quality watch.

Many of us that NOT care for a wrong alignment of an m and m or a 1mm offset on a bezel, or a wrong datefont. It is good to know that the differences are in just those very tiny things and not in the great lines. 99,5% of the public will never know this and so what if they do. Don't try to pose with a fake as if it is real. Of course it is a sport to get a very accurate watch...but 95% accuracy for the majority group will do perfectly (especially when the price is 95% less than that of an original).

I choose to own more watches that are good timekeepers (swiss ETA) and have pretty appearances. I myself think that if a watch has the general beauty of a gen watch it gives me that special feeling (of something I could probably never afford).

You delivered this watch for me two weeks back and I love it.

On this forum they say the hour markers should be black and they are SS. I don't care. It looks very beautiful. I look at it way to often and wear it every day... Keeps perfect time. Thanks again.... it made me order two more with you (IWC FA JONES decorated back and the Vintage ExplorerII)

Keep up the great work but do not take to much risk.

Edited July 16, 2006 by kingkitesurf

[Watchmeister]

I certainly have noticed that the general environment whether in the US, China or wherever appears to be getting more difficult. And I suspect the turmoil around the world will make it more difficult. As those risks rise I would guess the dealers will have to be more particular as to who their clients are and what merchandise they elect to carry. At least some portion of the membership has a healthy respect for what dealers are going through. And no one should kid themselves, if folks like Eddie and Andrew are suffering losses for various reasons they are going to have to increase volume and/or prices to make it worth their while or they will exit the business. Like any other business it exists so long as it pays for the dealers from a risk/return perspective.

IMHO the comments to wait for the2nd and 3rd generation are increasingly working backwards. Second gen 196's are inferior to first. Although far cheaper 2nd gen 187's have markers falling off, second and third gen 2892's are fast becoming 2836's as the movements disappear, etc. But overall the bar keeps rising. Also to the extent that dealers begin to form a loose cartel or at least communicate directly that may well minimize the obsolecense risk as they can decide what generations of watches they will stock. It amazed me that within days of selling the IWC Jones a better version came out with more accurate movement.

The interesting thing is that all of the great work by our dealers here have resulted in client expectations for reps exceeding expectations for most other gen items purchased on the web. If the environment is changing for the worse communications like this are helpful because it helps us, the ignorant consumer, understand what is going on.

[Bigsy]

Well Andrew just went rapidly down in my estimation. The whole post struck me as a cynical sales ploy, I guess the flaw filled new PO chronos aren't selling that well.

Just look at it from the buyers perspective for a second, who wants to buy a replica which is going to be out dated in a matter of months? No one that's who, this applies to everything, not just replica watches. I think your just going to have to wake up and smell the coffee on that one.

If the makers don't like it well I guess there going to have to do the job properly first time round ain't they. But I think they realise they make more money by producing progressively better [censored]. And ultimately the customer pays the price for this!

The whole risk/customs sob story doesn't wash either imo, the risk and custom costs (loses) are incorporated in to the cost of watches, it's that simple isn't it, same as any business. And if it really is as risky as you make out then why expose your self even more by sticking up a website advertising the fact your selling replicas? Huh? More money perchance?

I don't think for one minute any dealer does it for the love of selling reps, simple fact is, the money obviously does cover the risk, otherwise you guys wouldn't do it.

I'm thankful of the dealers, but seriously stop moaning if it's not worth it, don't do it, and if you want peoples money you going to have to play the game....and at least try and sound a bit more thankful for the business that does come your way.

Edited July 16, 2006 by Bigsy

[mossanti]

Well Andrew just went rapidly down in my estimation. The whole post struck me as a cynical sales ploy.

Just look at it from the buyers perspective for a second, who wants to buy a replica which is going to be out dated in a matter of months? No one that's who, this applies to everything, not just replica watches. I think your just going to have to wake up and smell the coffee on that one.#

If the makers don't like it well I guess there going to have to do the job properly first time round ain't they. But I think they realise they make more money by producing progressively better [censored]. And ultimately the customer pays the prices for this!

The whole risk/customs sob story doesn't wash either imo, the risk and custom costs (loses) are incorporated in to the cost of watches, it's that simple isn't it, same as any business. I don't think for one minute any dealer does it for the love of selling reps. Simple fact is, the money obviously does cover the risk, otherwise you guys wouldn't do it.

I'm thankful of the dealers, but seriously stop moaning if it's not worth it don't do it, and if you want peoples money you going to have to play the game....and at least try and sound a bit more thankful for the business that does come your way.

LOL ...bravo

[Usil]

Well Andrew just went rapidly down in my estimation. The whole post struck me as a cynical sales ploy.

A very cynical view and and, I would say, not one shared by most on this forum.

Just look at it from the buyers perspective for a second, who wants to buy a replica which is going to be out dated in a matter of months? No one that's who, this applies to everything...

Normal comparisons do not apply for reps. If they were in the open market subject to the normal competative pressures of retail sales this would be true but such is not the case for reps.

but seriously stop moaning if it's not worth it don't do it

I don't thnk many will agree with you that this is moaning. Any shairing from the dealers with us is welcome.

Usil

[4fun]

Well Andrew just went rapidly down in my estimation. The whole post struck me as a cynical sales ploy, I guess the flaw filled new PO chronos aren't selling that well.

Just look at it from the buyers perspective for a second, who wants to buy a replica which is going to be out dated in a matter of months? No one that's who, this applies to everything, not just replica watches. I think your just going to have to wake up and smell the coffee on that one.

If the makers don't like it well I guess there going to have to do the job properly first time round ain't they. But I think they realise they make more money by producing progressively better [censored]. And ultimately the customer pays the price for this!

The whole risk/customs sob story doesn't wash either imo, the risk and custom costs (loses) are incorporated in to the cost of watches, it's that simple isn't it, same as any business. And if it really is as risky as you make out then why expose your self even more by sticking up a website advertising the fact your selling replicas? Huh? More money perchance?

I don't think for one minute any dealer does it for the love of selling reps, simple fact is, the money obviously does cover the risk, otherwise you guys wouldn't do it.

I'm thankful of the dealers, but seriously stop moaning if it's not worth it, don't do it, and if you want peoples money you going to have to play the game....and at least try and sound a bit more thankful for the business that does come your way.

It's a fair comment IMO.

[Watchmeister]

If I were a dealer I would be reading all the various comments in this and Eddie's thread and deciding who I want to do business with. After all you can reduce at least some of the risk by deciding who is going to be reasonable and who may jeopardize my business. Ultimately, if the risk of seizure has gone up and it is pretty much universal folks should be expecting either price increases from the dealers or them actually disappearing. After all, this is a business with the added complexity of it being illicit.

[vmena]

Time to act as buyers and dealers. Buyers: take in account risks of this business and be patience. Dealers: act as dealers (achieve your compromises, help buyers, be gentle...)

If you buy something and you are offered a guarantee, execute it when needed. And it doesn't mean that the dealer is making you a favor. He's just applying what he announced.

Andy is agreat dealer because of the quality of his items and service. Nothing else.

No matter the difficult of the market for a business, all of us must play the rules we have accepted.

[Bigsy]

A very cynical view and and, I would say, not one shared by most on this forum.

Normal comparisons do not apply for reps. If they were in the open market subject to the normal competative pressures of retail sales this would be true but such is not the case for reps.

I don't thnk many will agree with you that this is moaning. Any shairing from the dealers with us is welcome.

Usil

Firstly, the forum can speak for it's self.....unless your the self appointed forum spokes person?

Secondly, it's not a comparison of markets, it's human nature! No one is going to be happy wasting money on a rep and have a better one come out a month later for the same price. Thats fact, doesn;t matter how much you and andrew don't want to believe that.

Thirdly, again you sure your not the forum spokesman? Anyway, 'shairing from the dealers' rofl sharing? Are you for real? Is that what's happening here? Andrews 'sharing' his watches with us all? Hahahaha, Tehehehe thats funny stuff.

Edited July 16, 2006 by Bigsy

[cornerstone]

I never understand this "us" and "them" mentality that a lot of folk have between dealers and buyers on the forum. Surely dealers are members of this forum, part of the community, and entitled to their opinions too?

I completely agree with what Usil said, for all that it matters. No need to flame him too.

[jkerouac]

Mossanti and Bigsy,

Sure this is a business and players such as Andrew, EL, TTK, and Joshua are in this for profit, and they'd either be a bit of balance or not in the game for long if they were not. But they are also good guys who do their best to give a pretty damn high level of service considering the prices, distances, business processes, and legal rules that surround this activity.

My first purchases were from ABay (Paul) and I was a satisfied customer. They went totally high volume, collapsed and came back as Aspire. They once again seem to have some of the best prices around, and I haven't heard any significant complaints, but since my first purchases I have managed to do transactions with many of our main suppliers. I did a couple of low cost transactions with Andrew, and when a watch arrived that did not perform as promised he took it back and refunded my money no questions asked. He could easily have left me holding the bag, but he didn't and for that I am grateful. He demonstrated why he is "trusty."

Since then I have settled in and do most of my purchases from Joshua. He is neither the lowest priced nor the highest priced dealer, but I like doing business with the guy and I trust him.

Deal with dealers you respect, treat them with respect, and chances are they will treat you with respect as well. Sure it's a business. But it can be more than just "here's my money now fork over the goods."

I can understand why some dealers give better prices to return customers than to first timers. First timers tend to be more hassle (expense) than repeat customers. In the future I wouldn't be surprised if more dealers institute split pricing or customer loyalty programs.

[trustywatchguy]

Bigsy...

This is definitely no sales ploy. I wouldnt even post at all to need to make extra sales. To be honest, these days, I have been busy with switching to designing my own watches and thinking of manufacturing them and then selling them. If I write all those to get sales, I think you are definitely getting the wrong side of the picture.

I do not want to say anymore.. I am just enjoying my weekend with my kids who deserve my time this weekend. Thanks!

Andrew

Edited July 16, 2006 by trustywatchguy

[jkerouac]

I never understand this "us" and "them" mentality that a lot of folk have between dealers and buyers on the forum. Surely dealers are members of this forum, part of the community, and entitled to their opinions too?

I completely agree with what Usil said, for all that it matters. No need to flame him too.

Succinct and well said. Thanks.

[sevomd]

Hey Bigsy

Your whole argument about buying soon to be outdated products applies to mainstream electronics and computers as well. I'm sure the computer you are happily typing away on became quite obsolete the day you bought it. So if you want to equate reps with the marketplace as a whole than you have to be more consistent with your arguments.

Eddy

[Bigsy]

Hey Bigsy

Your whole argument about buying soon to be outdated products applies to mainstream electronics and computers as well. I'm sure the computer you are happily typing away on became quite obsolete the day you bought it. So if you want to equate reps with the marketplace as a whole than you have to be more consistent with your arguments.

Eddy

If you want to take it far enough everything is outdated the instant it is bought in this day and age, hows that for consistency?

I think your trying to add weight to your rather poor argument by ignoring time frames here. I wouldn't of bought this PC if I knew the model to replace it was going to be out a month later at the same price. That would be pure stupidity.

People seem to be mixing up my opinion here for simple human nature, read the forum, it's everywhere. People don't want to be ripped off buying a sub par rep only to have it replaced a month later.

This is not the buyers fault, this is the makers fault, in fact more of an intentional money making plan if you ask me.

[jnkay]

There are two classes of rep buyers: those that appreciate they are reps and treat them as such for novelty, collecting or just because they like the style; and those that want "perfect clones." After all, that is the name of Jos's website, so it is not unreasonable for anyone to expect great accuracy and decent quality. Overall, I think the quality of the rollie reps (my area of interest) is very good. This is something to be greatful for. The accuracy ranges from good to very good, occasionally excellent.

It is only natural for those falling into the second group to expect the best, since reps are always being improved, or at least, changed, and marketed as such. So why shouldn't some people be dissapointed when the new sub comes out and has a better dial but now the crystal is wrong when it was previouisly correct? And then there is the cost, often between $200 to $300 USD. One would expect more for this price, versus the $40 reps you find on the street.

On the other hand, the dealers take risks and experience losses, and this must be built into the price. What I'm saying is, we are extremely fortunate to have honest and conscientious dealers like Andrew, Jos, King, Eddie etc. Most posts on transactions are very positive. However, when it comes to the products themselves, buyers on the forum have every right to pick at the reps, as good as they have become. For one, many updates correct one thing and screw up another they had right to begin with. And for another, some of the posters desperately want genuines, but can't afford them, and get frustrated with the slow progression and occassional regression of reps. This should not be directed at the dealers.

I think Andrew is 100% A+. I have to say though, that portraying the factories as trying so hard to get it right doesn't jive with previous posts explaining that the factories are purely into making money, and that there is little incentive to get it 100% right. Because, how would you get the buyer to go for the next iteration if there is no flaw to correct?

[sevomd]

If you want to take it far enough everything is outdated the instant it is bought in this day and age, hows that for consistency?

I think your trying to add weight to your rather poor argument by ignoring time frames here. I wouldn't of bought this PC if I knew the model to replace it was going to be out a month later at the same price. That would be pure stupidity.

People seem to be mixing up my opinion here for simple human nature, read the forum, it's everywhere. People don't want to be ripped off buying a sub par rep only to have it replaced a month later.

This is not the buyers fault, this is the makers fault, in fact more of an intentional money making plan if you ask me.

I guess we should all commend you on your uber-intelligence, but not every one here is a MENSA as you like to think yourself to be. It may be stupid to you but in the real world people do buy products all the time knowing that a model will replace it in the near future. Remeber newer always does not mean better. Especially in the rep world. There are many reps out there where the 1st run is much better and accurate than the 2nd run.

Also I have to disagree with your assertion that the buyer bears no fault in the purchase of a subpar rep. There is enough info on this and the 3 other forums to inform a buyer of the flaws of a certain rep or dealer. If he chooses to buy that rep and then have buyer's remorse than he has no one to blame but himself. If you are definitely sure that a better rep will be coming in the near future than you are more than free to not buy the current rep model and wait for the next one, but I for one would like to have the choice of buying now or later.

Eddy

[GFish]

To the few cynics on the board who always seem to find something wrong with the dealers, or what they say, just let me say this: When the good dealers are gone---the good watches will be gone! Just my opinion, but I would certainly hope that most members feel likewise. All the best to everyone! G

[cwai02]

Most of the members here have 5, 10, 20 or even 30+ watches. After buying so many reps, we started to know how to play this game. The first gen is the sucker's version. It sucks your money for a not-so-accurate watch and after a few months, you are stuck with a watch that you can't even resell at half price.

Personally, I don't need perfection, but knowing the fact that the watch will depreciate so much after a few months, I would rather wait for a 2nd gen or a 3rd gen.

Talking about conspiracy, I think the makers are putting some of the flaws there intentionally. So they can make a few versions to maximize profit. They always make one step forward, but two steps backward in new generation. It gives me an impression that the makers can do it better, but they don't want to do it.

The makers better think twice when they decide to make a new version. I would prefer quality over quantity. We already have too many choices of good watches. These makers can definitely make something good. They decided to make a so-so watch and it didn't sell well. Who should be blamed for the poor sale? Come on, they don't expect us to buy from Gen 1 to Gen 7. How many versions of fiddy can we afford?

Customers are asking for more and it happens in every business. Dealers as middlemen should let the makers know what we are looking for. It's just silly if the makers still believe we are going to take whatever they offer. It's a rep, we all know about it. But if it's not so good, we ll buy another rep. well, we have too many choices.

Btw, I always have respect with the dealers, especially those who take care of the customers, like Andrew. Having bought 10 watches from Andrew, I can say that the service is as good as Amazon. I hope you can do well in your business.