tokei Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 I've been seriously considering doing a transplant of a Gen Swiss ETA 2893-2 to my GMT-MII Ceramic (IHS) with Asian clone 2836-2. Has anyone done this or could provide some pointers? I really like this rep...but the movement seems to be a timebomb (from everything that has been posted). My main concern is: will the existing Asian clone hands fit a gen ETA 2893-2? How about the dial feet position? From what I read, the hands on the ETA2893-2 are 150/90/25. Anyone know what they are on the modified asian ETA clone 2836-2? Once this is done - should make for a great reliable Rep (without the POS movement inside)...still with IHS, though. Any thoughts or experience? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 I cannot verify the hand sizes for the Asian clone (or even verify whether you have a clone), nor have I read about anyone yet doing this transplant. However, in theory at least, it should be workable. Assuming the clone's hand sizes are the same as the gen ETAs (they probably are), the only problem you may run into is the nearly 1mm height difference between the 2 movements (the 2893-2 is shorter @ 4.1mm than the taller 2836-2 @ 5.05mm), which would necessitate your possibly having to correct for a stem mis-alignment (with the case tube). Again, I have never done this, so I cannot provide any specific guidance or definite answers beyond these suppositions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdavis Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 As I understand it the 2836-2 with the IHS isn't the "time bomb" but the CHS is the problem. If that is the case, I would think that you will gain little by this transplant considering the possible problems you might incur. If you decide to go through with the plan, you might PM Silty to see if he could provide a movement holder for this swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokei Posted November 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 As I understand it the 2836-2 with the IHS isn't the "time bomb" but the CHS is the problem. If that is the case, I would think that you will gain little by this transplant considering the possible problems you might incur. If you decide to go through with the plan, you might PM Silty to see if he could provide a movement holder for this swap. Thank you for the replies. For the time being, the Asian clone movement seems to be doing ok. Not sure about other folks experience, but the gears just "feel" really rough - especially when I manually wind it - gives the sense that it may give anytime. Anyways, I've already had it swapped out once. Perhaps, it maybe easier to source an extra modified ETA 2836-2 rather than the 2893-2... Thanks again for the help...if I do this, I'll be sure to post pictures and outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Let me ask you a question: Why are you winding it manually? There's absolutely no need to wind ETAs or Asian automatics manually. You're only wearing out your gears that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anton Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 I see the justificiation of transplanting a 2893 on a GMT2 w/ a modified 2836. As we know, a 2893 is a true GMT movement. An issue I've noticed about these bastardized movements is the slow(er) moving GMT hand that causes a lag, and a "freemoving" hand when setting the time that also causes it to be off. In order for the GMT hand to be nearly accurate, you would have to set it during the :00 hours. Freddy is right about the movement being thinner. And jdavis is also right about contacting Stilty. Because I believe he had a DateJust project where he transplanted a 2892 (maybe?) into it. As far as hand sizes go, here's a listing of Rollie-style hands that will fit a 2893: http://cgi.ebay.ie/WATCH-HANDS-FOR-ROLEX-T...tem310032582099 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokei Posted November 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 I see the justificiation of transplanting a 2893 on a GMT2 w/ a modified 2836. As we know, a 2893 is a true GMT movement. An issue I've noticed about these bastardized movements is the slow(er) moving GMT hand that causes a lag, and a "freemoving" hand when setting the time that also causes it to be off. In order for the GMT hand to be nearly accurate, you would have to set it during the :00 hours. Freddy is right about the movement being thinner. And jdavis is also right about contacting Stilty. Because I believe he had a DateJust project where he transplanted a 2892 (maybe?) into it. As far as hand sizes go, here's a listing of Rollie-style hands that will fit a 2893: http://cgi.ebay.ie/WATCH-HANDS-FOR-ROLEX-T...tem310032582099 That was one of the reasons for considering the transplant. Of course, I only started to consider this with the wealth of information available from the folks on this forum...funny, would never have considered this before hand. By-Tor: from time to time, I do manually wind the watch...I didnt realize it would grind down the gears (noticably). Wow, does this also mean I should refrain from doing so with my gens? During the weeks I wear my GMT-MII, I also put it in a winder as it has a tendancy to stop during the night. Again, beautiful watch, but I would certainly love an improved movement... BTW - missed out on your WM9 Sub and love your reviews...learned so much in the last month or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thanks for the compliments tokei. Appreciated. Regarding hand winding the automatics... Ziggy has always said it's bad for the movements... gen or rep. I just echo what he says in articles like this. Just don't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokei Posted November 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thanks for the compliments tokei. Appreciated. Regarding hand winding the automatics... The Zigmeister has always said it's bad for the movements... gen or rep. I just echo what he says in articles like this. Just don't do it. Clear enough for me...great article from The Zigmeister. I must have missed that one...certainly will save most of my auto watches now. Got me a bit worried on the GMTII. I'll open it up and take a look. Hopefully, it's not too late...if it is, well, I guess I'll be going through with the transplant sooner than anticipated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Regarding hand winding the automatics... Ziggy has always said it's bad for the movements... gen or rep. I just echo what he says in articles like this. Just don't do it. I still disagree with Ziggy on the issue of hand-winding gens or ETAs. If you understand the mechanics of how auto-wind gearing functions, it is fairly easy to see the potential issues that can arise from overwinding a movement that was designed to be (primarily) auto-wound. But Rolex and most other gen makers recommend manually winding a stopped watch to get it started & they do so without qualification (Watches returned from RSC arrive with this tag attached) Problems can arise in poorly made or unserviced movements if the watch is manually wound on a regular basis because of the amount of friction generated in & around the reversing wheels (these are the components most likely to wear or break from overuse) due to the high velocities they get subjected to during manual winding Because of the wide gearing ratios between the stem & reversing gears, some have (correctly) described manually winding an auto-wind movement as being similar to driving a car at 90 miles per hour in 1st gear. But a good, properly maintained movement should not experience problems from occasional hand-winding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Yeah. it might not necessarily cause any damage. But I still don't see even one single reason to manually wind a working automatic watch, regardless what the official Rolex info says. If shake, rattle and roll works just as well, what's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokei Posted November 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Well, both views are very much appreciated and should be considered: 1. on gen Rolexes and well maintained movements - the occasional handwind is probably ok (done slowly and not too many times to get it started). Whew - good news for me... 2. on others/reps - perhaps additional care/attention should be given as one does not necessarily always know the condition of the movement. Even if known, care should still be taken. Avoid hand winding on if possible (i.e. I put them on the auto winder). I think a balance view (hence educated view) is what is important to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Yeah. it might not necessarily cause any damage. But I still don't see even one single reason to manually wind a working automatic watch, regardless what the official Rolex info says. If shake, rattle and roll works just as well, what's the point? The only reason anyone should need to manually wind an auto-wind watch, is to start a stopped watch. And my point was simply that, assuming the watch is in otherwise good, working order, you can wind your watch without fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdavis Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 The only reason anyone should need to manually wind an auto-wind watch, is to start a stopped watch. And my point was simply that, assuming the watch is in otherwise good, working order, you can wind your watch without fear. Freddy, that is the exact information that I received from an experienced master watchmaker as well as from my Rolex AD. The only caution was to wind it slowly as winding it simply duplicates what the rotor is doing. I think that The Zigmeister may be referring to the typical unserviced rep movement that we receive which might be prone to excessive wear due to lack of lubrication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 Freddy, that is the exact information that I received from an experienced master watchmaker as well as from my Rolex AD. The only caution was to wind it slowly as winding it simply duplicates what the rotor is doing. I think that Ziggy may be referring to the typical unserviced rep movement that we receive which might be prone to excessive wear due to lack of lubrication. I am glad you found the answer you were looking for. Also, I believe Ziggy's comment was in reference to a question a member posed as to whether it was alright to manually wind a typical auto-wind ETA-powered rep on a daily basis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Perhaps, it maybe easier to source an extra modified ETA 2836-2 rather than the 2893-2... Thanks again for the help...if I do this, I'll be sure to post pictures and outcome. An Asian clone of the ICHS GMT modded 2836-2 is about $100 + shipping. For $170 I would rather have a proper GMT movement if it could be made to fit. Any updates on your research into this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokei Posted November 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 An Asian clone of the ICHS GMT modded 2836-2 is about $100 + shipping. For $170 I would rather have a proper GMT movement if it could be made to fit. Any updates on your research into this one? I totally agree with ya on this - would prefer a proper GMT movement. Sorry, but my initial source for the 2893-2 didnt quite work out...so I was just going down the path of sourcing another modified 2836-2 when the time come (hopefully not for a while). Do you have another source or suggestion on where to get a 2893? Would still like to continue this project if I can find one for a reasonable price (given the situation with ETA movements). Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 I totally agree with ya on this - would prefer a proper GMT movement. Sorry, but my initial source for the 2893-2 didnt quite work out...so I was just going down the path of sourcing another modified 2836-2 when the time come (hopefully not for a while). Do you have another source or suggestion on where to get a 2893? Would still like to continue this project if I can find one for a reasonable price (given the situation with ETA movements). From recent posts of The Zigmeister...it sounds like you can source them but they are really expensive...in the $500 range!! That's more expensive than I can get valjoux 7750s. My ETA source doesn't have them anymore and said they are no longer listed on their availability list. Somal Canada can get a Chinese GMT movement (likely the ICHS that is found in reps now) for $20 CDN. So...with this in mind as a cheap replacement...my willingness to go down this road for getting a watch with a GMT function is restored. The movement may not be the greatest...but hey...rip and replace when it dies with a readily available cheapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhorn Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 (edited) You can also find 'donor' watches with 2893's for less than $500 ... I have seen Kiber's in the mid $300's pop up occasionally on the Bay. You could also look for used Grovanas. Steinhart/Debaufres, etc. The GMT hand size is different between the modified 2836 and the 2893, but as anton points out, you can get handsets on the Bay for Rolex pretty easily. Edited December 3, 2008 by tomhorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky driver Posted December 7, 2008 Report Share Posted December 7, 2008 Somal Canada can get a Chinese GMT movement (likely the ICHS that is found in reps now) for $20 CDN. So...with this in mind as a cheap replacement...my willingness to go down this road for getting a watch with a GMT function is restored. The movement may not be the greatest...but hey...rip and replace when it dies with a readily available cheapy. and what exactly do you ask for again? if i ask for a Chinese GMT movements will they know what i'm talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 and what exactly do you ask for again? if i ask for a Chinese GMT movements will they know what i'm talking about? I asked for an Asian GMT movement that can replace a 2836 or 2893 movement. I'm not sure if the hand sizes are the same to be honest...so you should get the hand sizes and the stack order and that will determine what you're getting and if it will work. I've never ordered one yet...but am tempted after getting the pricing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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