Dani Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 In terms of physical perfection, I agree. That said, as I mentioned with coke vs generic, sometimes the differences can make the rep nice in its own right i agree but when we go on the other scale of complicated watches the China reps are crap, i woud NEVER buy a 7750 or lets say base pam gen for more then 2k$ and we all now most cost much more. but when you see have much a breitling emergency is and have complicated and its history its worth it. same whit my EWA it has a damn alarm in the watch have crazy is that and more like date,second timezone. so for my wis'nes those watches was worth the $$ I dont agree with Dani here with his short statement, I dont think reps suck, and I also think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you feel that 15,000 is worth it then by all means, enjoy the watch, and enjoy the "you get what you pay for" aspect of it. I'm sure it will be perfect in every way. For me, and to rehash robbies statement on whether the small details matter...IMHO, the fine details don't matter for me. If i know that externally, a rep will look just as good as a gen, including the 5% flaws, then I will be happy to wear that rep. Everyone is different, and everyone leads different lives, I know the way I am, and the way I work....I have been banging my steelfish around like crazy. Every 10 minutes this watch is taking a heavy hit from computers, storage systems, server shelves...etc. If this were a GEN, i would have taken it off, and 4k would be sitting in my drawer because I'd never have a chance of wearing it, hence, no need for the watch and I dont want that. Sure you could say I need to be more careful, or I need to acknowledge the fact that I have a timepiece on my wrist, but that doesnt mean equipment will listen to me as it falls, or moves, or as others are helping me build a rack of 10 servers and need to move the server 10 inches. They will not tell me "Hey jr., I know you have an expensive watch, heads up" LOL. That would just be weird if i told them to give me a heads up in the future. Anyway, for me, and ONLY for me, I think buying the REP is fine, I agree that you do get what you pay for, and in my case...I'm getting what I paid for, because I'm paying 300 instead of 100 on a crappy rep. I'm getting a better degree of crappy rep in a sense. I'm getting a higher end replica, that is a term that should never be said, but they do exist. There are levels of crappyness, from canal st. crap, to watchsir, to a higher end like andrew and pam111. But the point remains the same, i'm getting what I pay for, and I'm happy to do it, i'm getting a 95 to 98% accurate replica ,that no one will question and I will enjoy wearing. The people I encounter in my life will not question its authenticity because where I work and live, watches are purchased, discussed once and never discussed again, its not a volatile area where watches are discussed and mentioned all the time, I dont interact with very rich individuals who are familiar with expensive timepieces, and I dont work in a watch store..etc. Also to share another point, I certainly can afford the GEN's of the REPS that i wear, I just choose not to. I like so many different pieces out there, that I'd be in the hole so much if I went out and purchased only a few of the Gen's I love....so for me, purchasing the rep saves me money, and also gives me the pleasure of enjoying the timepiece, until I get sick of it and give it away, or put it in a box. I wouldnt want the feeling of losing 5k because i'm sick of a watch and dont want to wear it anymore, and i'd end up selling it for much less. I think because my taste changes so much with watches, REPS are the best fit for me, flaws and all. Look above in my answer to T. I myself is wearing a pam rep right now becasue yes i would not shell out 20k on a gen whit a ETA movment, when i have 99% right now, did cost alot but again it was more fun then just buying a watch in a box. but if you like watches its not always satisfaction to own reps when we go in higher "wis" scale then a steelfish. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I seriously wonder people who say that "reps are crap compared to gens". That might be true when we're talking about high horology pieces like Breguet and Vacheron, but Rolex, TAG, Ebel, Omega, Breitling, etc. are all mass produced watches, and the reps are actually damn good and accurate. Especially those that have ETA & Valjoux 7750 gen counterparts. At least Rolex only uses the inhouse movements, and I can see why that's important for some... but most gen Breits, Omegas, TAGs... very good and solid automatic watches, but if we're honest they're nothing that special mechanically. If someone says the reps of these watches are crap and "full of flaws", I think the person has lost his perspective. They're amazingly accurate and close to the gen "feel" in every possible way. Look at reps like Ebel Discovery for Christ's sakes... what "flaws" you're talking about? Or the new BCE... those possible flaws are so ridiculously small... and they're still rather obscure models... I mean, who could possibly be geek enough to give a crap? Maybe I'm just not WIS enough... but it doesn't really make a lot of difference to me whether I'm wearing my gen or rep Rolex. They feel and look 99% the same. GMT Master II is a bit different for me, because I like the mechanics of 3185. It's a great movement that reps can never duplicate properly. But modern Subs, Sea Dwellers, etc. I'd never invest $5k on one. Yeah, I certainly wouldn't say they are crap at all - nor are they inferior in any way. Dani and I most certainly don't agree on that. To me reps are not crap, they are just different. But I wasn't speaking about accuracy. They are very accurate. I wasn't speaking of "flaws" but rather manufacturing sloppyness that not everyone can even see or be bothered by. But to me, that Swiss precision - and NOT the accuracy of the replication is my hot button. Sloppyness drives me insane! I want to be able to gaze with a loupe for hours and revel in the fact that everything is perfectly aligned and clean and precise. And movements and complications are a whole other thing, but that is another thread... So I haven't "lost my perspective". That IS my perspective. I'm just a guy that never really judged a rep on the merits of its accuracy to the gen in terms of visual flaws or even its materials (rep materials are more than fine), but rather the tiny differences, which to me make all the difference in the world, and which separate the amateurs from the pros so to speak in the watchmaking world. But I definitely concede that what we are talking about is splitting hairs. But splitting hairs in the micro world is for some the whole point. That said, many of the errors on reps can be fixed too - or modded. In my case, I also used to enjoy that process. Now I don't. To each his own right. I just don't like getting a rep I'm excited about, finding out that the bezel doesn't center, the lume on the 5 is to the left by a 16th, the glass is dirty and the threads are stripped. Sure I could send it off to someone and fix much of it maybe, but I just say f*ck it and get the gen which I know won't ever disappoint me. But I still love the 1:1 reps from a standpoint of being able to make collection choices without spending an arm and a leg for what amounts to a mistake. So now I buy reps and if they are screwed up I don't even notice it because I know I'll never keep it. There is a purpose. If I fall in love, I'll sell it and get the gen - if I don't I'll sell it and not get the gen, and then on to the next one. But given that my love of watches in in the precision of the details, I had no choice. I just couldn't stand being bummed any more since I don't have the inclination or time to "fix" and "mod". Trust me, I have done my fair share of that. You could ask quite a few watchsmiths on this and other boards who are holding thousands and thousands of my money for such work. Now I just give that and more to Switzerland instead, PLUS to China because I still buy reps too. I just don't keep them for as long as some... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I couldn't have said it better BT... I would like to post a personal experience regarding the rep vs gen thing. I had to pay 80 euros for a crown problem on a gen TAG CARRERA CHRONO although it was within warranty time (8 months old in a 2 year warranty limit)just because the authorized service wouldn't cover any crown damage issues only mechanical damage...cost of the watch nearly 3000euros. Since then i had 3 reps (total worth of 900 $)with the same problem sent to my CN dealer,all of which were repaired free of cost and shipped back to me on behalf of my dealer's expenses (total shipping cost of 75 $). Could some one explain to me why should i waist 3000 euros or more on a gen and not get the proper customer friendly service i should get for a purchase at this cost?And on the other hand i get a more than customer friendly service from an unknown CN person-dealer,all for free... Beats me... Thanks for listening guys. You are generalizing here my friend - many are actually. "Waste", along with some other words getting tossed around are relative terms. You are also speaking of your expereince only which doesn't have to happen to others. As an example, I have at one time had maybe 30 gens to the tune of 100k invested or more and never once had any problems with them. I also had in that exact same time another 30 reps and had to fix nearly all of them at my expense. I too have sent reps back to China and had all of them replaced for free if defective which is standard now. Of course if the gens were defective they would have been replaced too. LOL. Sorry about your TAG experience, but we can't use that to generalize a discussion of the merits of reps and gens - or how some watches break and others don't. Or I suppose we can, but that would be a poll thread. Both reps and gens have all the merit in the world and again, as I said in my OP, the only question is how each of us perceives quality as it is subjective, and how each of us makes choices based on those perceptions. There is no right answer. Multiple choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hey, great thread BTW. I forgot who started this now but it is excellent. We haven't had a really good "opinion" thread in quite some time now. Isn't it cool that we can all have such differing views and take in all the perspectives? Gotta love RWG - especially if you are a watch nut... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 In a way, I have a reverse view to yours with regards rep/gen purchasses. I'll go into an AD, try on the gen, and if I like it, I'll buy a rep. I just saw this bro - yeah - exactly. Instead I go to China, try on the rep and if I like it I buy the gen. Isn't it great that two guys with the same birthday can live out the exact same process in reverse? We should do a movie together - like Arnold and Devito in Twins or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 What of the rumors that rep watch sales fuel/finance the Taliban and their murderous, religious supremacist operations? What of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I seriously wonder people who say that "reps are crap compared to gens". That might be true when we're talking about high horology pieces like Breguet and Vacheron, but Rolex, TAG, Ebel, Omega, Breitling, etc. are all mass produced watches, and the reps are actually damn good and accurate. Especially those that have ETA & Valjoux 7750 gen counterparts. At least Rolex only uses the inhouse movements, and I can see why that's important for some... but most gen Breits, Omegas, TAGs... very good and solid automatic watches, but if we're honest they're nothing that special mechanically. If someone says the reps of these watches are crap and "full of flaws", I think the person has lost his perspective. They're amazingly accurate and close to the gen "feel" in every possible way. Look at reps like Ebel Discovery for Christ's sakes... what "flaws" you're talking about? Or the new BCE... those possible flaws are so ridiculously small... and they're still rather obscure models... I mean, who could possibly be geek enough to give a crap? Maybe I'm just not WIS enough... but it doesn't really make a lot of difference to me whether I'm wearing my gen or rep Rolex. They feel and look 99% the same. GMT Master II is a bit different for me, because I like the mechanics of 3185. It's a great movement that reps can never duplicate properly. But modern Subs, Sea Dwellers, etc. I'd never invest $5k on one. I have to agree with you there. It's like I said to Robbie yesterday, the only rep I've bought which has the kind of unacceptable flaws mentioned (all in one watch) is the Canal St PAM I picked up in Spain. Even then, the dial is clean, that's why I was considering making it a project watch Okay, I might not be buying Super Reps, but when the dial on a $100 GMT Master II can have totally even dial print, each indice properly aligned, and with lume which lasts all night, it does make me wonder just what garbage is being sent out, and what makes dealers think people will accept such substandard stock. I know, people will always say "Well it's only a rep, what do you expect..." Well, if the factories can make most watches at a reasonable standard, they can make all watches at that standard. I know, there'll always be 'factory seconds', but they shouldn't be getting shipped out by dealers as the quality items listed for sale. Offered as 'discounted seconds', or 'good for a project beginner', perhaps, but not as a full price watch. It's like when I said to someone last week 'Buy a gen' because they were concerned about the color of the GMT hand on their asian GMTIIC (which actually matched the dealer's photo of the asian watch) Okay, it might not be the right shade of green, but boo hoo, it's still green, it's not as if it's blue Those're the kind of folks who will only be satisfied by a gen (and would then likely take the gen back to the AD five times, because the bracelet links seize together, or the date wheel doesn't flip at precicely12:00:00 hours, or because the dial is shifted .1mm to the left... People like that will never be satisfied with anything less than 100% unadulterated perfection, which sadly, does not exist even in watches of Rolex prices ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmarin.72 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 You are generalizing here my friend - many are actually. "Waste", along with some other words getting tossed around are relative terms. You are also speaking of your expereince only which doesn't have to happen to others. As an example, I have at one time had maybe 30 gens to the tune of 100k invested or more and never once had any problems with them. I also had in that exact same time another 30 reps and had to fix nearly all of them at my expense. I too have sent reps back to China and had all of them replaced for free if defective which is standard now. Of course if the gens were defective they would have been replaced too. LOL. Sorry about your TAG experience, but we can't use that to generalize a discussion of the merits of reps and gens - or how some watches break and others don't. Or I suppose we can, but that would be a poll thread. Both reps and gens have all the merit in the world and again, as I said in my OP, the only question is how each of us perceives quality as it is subjective, and how each of us makes choices based on those perceptions. There is no right answer. Multiple choice... Point taken,your opinion is greatly respected Robbie.Of course most of the things we do or say are based on our personal experiences.And of course i am not using my bad experience as a standard,that would be most inappropriate .I just thought it would be a nice chance to post an experience i had ,not regarding the quality of the watch but mostly the customer service i have been given by both the gen and the rep dealers. Thanks for reading my post but mostly thanks for your reply,your opinion is always appreciated. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Point taken,your opinion is greatly respected Robbie.Of course most of the things we do or say are based on our personal experiences.And of course i am not using my bad experience as a standard,that would be most inappropriate .I just thought it would be a nice chance to post an experience i had ,not regarding the quality of the watch but mostly the customer service i have been given by both the gen and the rep dealers. Thanks for reading my post but mostly thanks for your reply,your opinion is always appreciated. John No worries bro. Didn't take it that way. Nice to make your aquaintance BTW. As a side note, funny you should say that as I had a couple TAGs over the years although I don't hve one at the moment, and as I recall the crowns were all kind of stubborn and difficult to turn, get threaded right, etc. I wonder if it is something to do with the tubes they use or the way they are seated or something? I always wonder about that stuff. Like the UPO rep crown issue BTW. I have a gen PO and the crown is one of the smoothest I have so I wonder why the design would somehow cause a problem with that particular rep. I mean I know the movements are different but both ETA so it shouldn't really matter. Meanwhile, I have a gen IWC Aquatimer and that crown is the worst. Takes me two tries usually and great care to get it threaded right. As I recall the rep felt the same. Go figure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Those're the kind of folks who will only be satisfied by a gen (and would then likely take the gen back to the AD five times, because the bracelet links seize together, or the date wheel doesn't flip at precicely12:00:00 hours, or because the dial is shifted .1mm to the left... People like that will never be satisfied with anything less than 100% unadulterated perfection, which sadly, does not exist even in watches of Rolex prices ) You are going to crack up, but I just did this. I'm not a bug the AD type at all but my UN MMD which I have had for maybe 6 months now had the slightest issue with the bezel just a hair off center and the datewheel just a hair off on two of the numbers and I brought it in yesterday for a quick fix. Goes to show the level of detail I'm into, hence my opinions in this thread. But the AD was happy to do it for free of course, and even a bit embarrassed stating that he was surprised that the brand would ever have an alignment issue. "Those Swiss...Too much brandy in his cocoa that morning maybe.." was his statement when he looked at it. But the point being that I would bet 9 out of 10 people here wouldn't even notice it if I handed you the watch and asked you to find something wrong with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmarin.72 Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 No worries bro. Didn't take it that way. Nice to make your aquaintance BTW. As a side note, funny you should say that as I had a couple TAGs over the years although I don't hve one at the moment, and as I recall the crowns were all kind of stubborn and difficult to turn, get threaded right, etc. I wonder if it is something to do with the tubes they use or the way they are seated or something? I always wonder about that stuff. Like the UPO rep crown issue BTW. I have a gen PO and the crown is one of the smoothest I have so I wonder why the design would somehow cause a problem with that particular rep. I mean I know the movements are different but both ETA so it shouldn't really matter. Meanwhile, I have a gen IWC Aquatimer and that crown is the worst. Takes me two tries usually and great care to get it threaded right. As I recall the rep felt the same. Go figure... Nice to talk to you also mate.Just for the record i've been reading your posts from my day1 in RWG but i never got the chance to say hi. As for the crowns...i agree...go figure!!! C u later R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 @Robbie: I know exactly what you mean. Reps can never get the "last 5-10 percent" right. If you like a watch a lot, and are sure that you're going to keep it for good, gen is very good option for the hardcore WIS. But just as you said before, GMT IIc is a good example of a watch that isn't "$6K amazing", but definitely is "$300 amazing". Very nice watch to have and wear, but it lacks the "spirit" of the classic GMT for me. Completely a taste thing of course. Let's take the Ebel Discovery... the gen is what... $2.6K and the rep has Asian counterpart of the Valjoux 7750. It's visually and functionally 99% accurate... for $350. Not technically of course, as Asian 7750 can't compare to Swiss, but still... I'm a Ebel fan... but I'd never buy gen Discovery because the movement is nothing special. Ebel has inhouse calibers in BTR, and use El Primero in the older models of 1911. Both much more desirable. But I really like the design and dial of the white Discovery... so that was a perfect rep for me. SMP Chrono, Stainless steel BCE, TAG Aquaracer, Link Chrono, Skyland, SFSO, etc. all fall into this category. I think they're all excellent buys, and excellent watches. They would be very nice automatic watches... even with CASIO written on the dial. I understand why people put a lot of money on a watch like your UN, which has a lot of tiny details... but I fail to see the "excellence" on a watch like steel Rolex. I grew up with these watches and they don't feel or wear any better than good, modified reps. Oh yeah, the SEL tolerances are better, but myths like "dramatically better bracelet", "heavier weight and better feel" or "way different steel color" are just crap. I don't know why people constantly exaggerate these differences, even here... probably because they try to justify the ridiculous price of the gen to themselves. The solid version of the bracelet (that the new GMT IIc and Daytona use) feel a bit better on the gen though. I just handled a new steel Daytona two weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailboss Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Wow! what a thread! Great read and a lot to take in. Robbie: You and TJ share a birth DATE but from memory you're justa few years older my friend. BT:Look at reps like Ebel Discovery for Christ's sakes... what "flaws" you're talking about? Those pushers! OMG, there a whole half mm too long! Col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yeah, I certainly wouldn't say they are crap at all - nor are they inferior in any way. Dani and I most certainly don't agree on that. To me reps are not crap, they are just different. But I wasn't speaking about accuracy. They are very accurate. I wasn't speaking of "flaws" but rather manufacturing sloppyness that not everyone can even see or be bothered by. But to me, that Swiss precision - and NOT the accuracy of the replication is my hot button. Sloppyness drives me insane! I want to be able to gaze with a loupe for hours and revel in the fact that everything is perfectly aligned and clean and precise. And movements and complications are a whole other thing, but that is another thread... So I haven't "lost my perspective". That IS my perspective. I'm just a guy that never really judged a rep on the merits of its accuracy to the gen in terms of visual flaws or even its materials (rep materials are more than fine), but rather the tiny differences, which to me make all the difference in the world, and which separate the amateurs from the pros so to speak in the watchmaking world. But I definitely concede that what we are talking about is splitting hairs. But splitting hairs in the micro world is for some the whole point. That said, many of the errors on reps can be fixed too - or modded. In my case, I also used to enjoy that process. Now I don't. To each his own right. I just don't like getting a rep I'm excited about, finding out that the bezel doesn't center, the lume on the 5 is to the left by a 16th, the glass is dirty and the threads are stripped. Sure I could send it off to someone and fix much of it maybe, but I just say f*ck it and get the gen which I know won't ever disappoint me. But I still love the 1:1 reps from a standpoint of being able to make collection choices without spending an arm and a leg for what amounts to a mistake. So now I buy reps and if they are screwed up I don't even notice it because I know I'll never keep it. There is a purpose. If I fall in love, I'll sell it and get the gen - if I don't I'll sell it and not get the gen, and then on to the next one. But given that my love of watches in in the precision of the details, I had no choice. I just couldn't stand being bummed any more since I don't have the inclination or time to "fix" and "mod". Trust me, I have done my fair share of that. You could ask quite a few watchsmiths on this and other boards who are holding thousands and thousands of my money for such work. Now I just give that and more to Switzerland instead, PLUS to China because I still buy reps too. I just don't keep them for as long as some... I quite agree with you, bro, as I just posted to By-Tor, it's not flaws in replication which are a problem, but sloppiness in construction which is the issue. Okay, I appreciate where these watches are coming from, I understand who's making them, and I accept all that. I accept that human error means that even the most dilligent builder will eventually make a mistake while building their quota. It might be something small, it might be something glaringly obvious, but those're the watches which as above, dealers should not be sending out to people who have paid top dollar for them. Bargain bin specials, sure, but not full priced watches, as people's expectations are for a quality watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 i agree but when we go on the other scale of complicated watches the China reps are crap, i woud NEVER buy a 7750 or lets say base pam gen for more then 2k$ and we all now most cost much more. but when you see have much a breitling emergency is and have complicated and its history its worth it. same whit my EWA it has a damn alarm in the watch have crazy is that and more like date,second timezone. so for my wis'nes those watches was worth the $$ Look above in my answer to T. I myself is wearing a pam rep right now becasue yes i would not shell out 20k on a gen whit a ETA movment, when i have 99% right now, did cost alot but again it was more fun then just buying a watch in a box. but if you like watches its not always satisfaction to own reps when we go in higher "wis" scale then a steelfish. Cheers I think you're right there, bro, the higher up the ladder you go with the real world watches, the harder it is for the reps to keep up, and then the lesser quality becomes apparent. Not so much because the rep is a crap watch, if it was being viewed as a watch by itself, but just by comparison to the gen, which likely includes a few complications, and precious metals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I just saw this bro - yeah - exactly. Instead I go to China, try on the rep and if I like it I buy the gen. Isn't it great that two guys with the same birthday can live out the exact same process in reverse? We should do a movie together - like Arnold and Devito in Twins or something... Sounds like a plan, bro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 sloppiness in construction which is the issue. Correction: Sloppiness in construction is sometimes an issue. I mean, if you're referring to mechanical problems. Of course, reps have occasional visual issues as well... like crooked markers. Amazingly, I've never gotten a rep like that... maybe the dealers double check before they send a copy to me. The only mechanical issues I've had... yes, they have been "complications". Correct hand stack GMT build is just terrible, and the Day-Date that I reviewed has a daywheel issue. And we all know the track record of A7750 seconds at '6. But with basic ETA/Asian 21J/A7750... I've never had even one mechanical problem... out of those 45-50 reps I've owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 You are going to crack up, but I just did this. I'm not a bug the AD type at all but my UN MMD which I have had for maybe 6 months now had the slightest issue with the bezel just a hair off center and the datewheel just a hair off on two of the numbers and I brought it in yesterday for a quick fix. Goes to show the level of detail I'm into, hence my opinions in this thread. But the AD was happy to do it for free of course, and even a bit embarrassed stating that he was surprised that the brand would ever have an alignment issue. "Those Swiss...Too much brandy in his cocoa that morning maybe.." was his statement when he looked at it. But the point being that I would bet 9 out of 10 people here wouldn't even notice it if I handed you the watch and asked you to find something wrong with it... That's fair enough though, that's more along the lines of taking a car in for getting a quick tune up and oil change, what I was meaning, was someone who buys a gen, expecting a level of perfection beyond human capacity, because they've spent the dollars, it means a zillion % perfection, because it's a real, not fake R0lex!!!1, and keeps taking it back, several times, within a few days/weeks of purchase, having found a new issue each time it was returned to them. As someone pointed out on TZ once, the person who does that, has probably never bought anything expensive before. Of course, in the rep world, such a person would be told to just buy a gen... In the gen world, I guess the AD flips the sign on the door to 'Closed' when they see them walking down the street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Correction: Sloppiness in construction is sometimes an issue. I mean, if you're referring to mechanical problems. Of course, reps have occasional visual issues as well... like crooked markers. Amazingly, I've never gotten a rep like that... maybe the dealers double check before they send a copy to me. The only mechanical issues I've had... yes, they have been "complications". Correct hand stack GMT build is just terrible, and the Day-Date that I reviewed has a daywheel issue. And we all know the track record of A7750 seconds at '6. But with basic ETA/Asian 21J/A7750... I've never had even one mechanical problem... out of those 45-50 reps I've owned. Yes, that's precisely what I was meaning. It will somtimes be an issue from the construction end. That's why I was meaning that any stock which makes its way to a dealers warehouse (or however they keep it) which is of 'factory seconds' quality, that stuff gets put in the 'bargain' section, and priced accordingly. I think the dealers would get much less complaints about things like that, (such as the member with the DSSD with the wonky 12 marker) if they were to sell them at a reduced price, on the understanding that they're being sold 'as is', with the aim of someone buying it as a mod project, rather than selling a perfect item. That way, they'd only be dealing with returns on serious issues (failures of crowns etc) rather than the more 'nit picking' stuff. I think folks would also then be less upset with their purchase, as they'd know that paying top dollar means getting the good watch, paying less, would mean getting something they know will be imperfect, but which they can then mod as a project To be honest, the only mechanical issue I've experienced out of all my watch purchases, was my very first PAM, which had no power reserve, and would stop after a few hours, and an FM Crazy Hours I bought for my wife, which did not 'jump' fully in the one go, although the replacement worked fine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Wow! what a thread! Great read and a lot to take in. Robbie: You and TJ share a birth DATE but from memory you're justa few years older my friend. BT: Those pushers! OMG, there a whole half mm too long! Col. It's the same day, just different birth years To mangle a quote from the Highlander TV Series: Same model, different vintage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalayclass Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I don't know if it has been said but I know how prices are made (I used to work in a jewelry). Take the basis of 1000. The manufacturer sells the watch 500 VAT. Yes, the jewelry adds a margin of x 2! The manufacturer uses approx 30% of the price in communication which means here 150 Remains 350 You add all the fixed costs of structure and employees, costs of research... Your watch costs 100 approx. When you know that even manufactures have sub contractors who add their margin... the watch costs nothing... I am not dreaming, that the reality of the market. I plan to create a brand, I know what I am talking about. As rep manufactures have low cost employees, no research, no communication... that's why the price is so low. There is nothing to do with passion, prices are not fixed like this for fun. You take the decision to penetrate a market, you fix the price and then you try to do everything to produce so as to reach that price... Hope I am clear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuniorNA Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) I don't know if it has been said but I know how prices are made (I used to work in a jewelry). Take the basis of 1000. The manufacturer sells the watch 500 VAT. Yes, the jewelry adds a margin of x 2! The manufacturer uses approx 30% of the price in communication which means here 150 Remains 350 You add all the fixed costs of structure and employees, costs of research... Your watch costs 100 approx. When you know that even manufactures have sub contractors who add their margin... the watch costs nothing... I am not dreaming, that the reality of the market. I plan to create a brand, I know what I am talking about. As rep manufactures have low cost employees, no research, no communication... that's why the price is so low. There is nothing to do with passion, prices are not fixed like this for fun. You take the decision to penetrate a market, you fix the price and then you try to do everything to produce so as to reach that price... Hope I am clear... That makes perfect sense to me. I think a lot of people "assume" that watch prices are just thrown out there and chosen simply because it landed on that marker when they flipped a coin . I do agree that watches are X2 at AD's because my friend works at one. He states that you are given a certain % to drop off the MSRP, the less % off you give, the more you get in commission, the more % off you give to a watch, the less you get as commission. If you sell a watch at MSRP, then commission is at the highest for that specific price bracket. Some AD's will not take % off a watch for any customer at all, for example, ZENITH will not allow this location to take % off of their watches since they do not sell enough to make a profit with a % off. Perhaps different countries are different, and perhaps some states are different in the US based on what they sell in terms of high end watches...maybe even some stores are different in what % off they can give a customer based on their annual revenue and sales. I fall into the bracket of loving the reps that are 98% accurate and tell accurate time. I'm all for the people that want precision and want accuracy, I am like that with the cars that I purchase or the electronics that I purchase as I am into new technology all the time. For watches however, I want it to be accurate to an extent, and I want the watch to tell the right time when I look down at it 5 times a day . Sure I could buy an eco-drive for 300 and it wont die on me for 5 years, but then there is no fun in that for me. I like to purchase the rep, modify it, upgrade it, fix it, or just enjoy it until it needs fixing, and at the end of the day, i learned about the history of the watch from all the research I did, and I ended up how to fix certain points, or dissect movements and maybe get a better understanding of what i'm buying with every rep that I do buy. For me, that is what makes me stay in this fun hobby...not to try to look cool to people, but to enjoy luxury watches at a lower price, and giving myself a hobby to upgrade it and make it even better, and to learn. BTW, I'm the thread starter for this, lol . The newb that just joined ended up making the BEST thread of 09 so far !! Edited January 19, 2009 by JuniorNA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palidin Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yeah, I certainly wouldn't say they are crap at all - nor are they inferior in any way. Now, lets not get carried away here. Not inferior in any way? I certainly can't dive with my Breitling reps as I can with my gen Chronomat Evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palidin Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 What of them? Are they true? (the obvious point of the question) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Are they true? (the obvious point of the question) All just 'anti-counterfeit' propoganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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