namor Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Dear members - seniors and newbies, after having a conversation with some friends I decided to share some thoughts and facts with you all. Topics are especially modding reps, modding watches in general and modders/watchsmiths: First of all, this goes especially to all enthusiastic newbies, be aware that a rep will ever be a rep - no matter how much you mod and tweak it... Even if you build a franken watch, using mostly genuine parts - you'll still end up having a rep - or at most, if you use all genuine parts a "mariage". So always have an eye on your spent budget before running into this ! You can get many nice and qualitative gens for the price of a highly modded rep ! Don't get me wrong ! I know that -for example- a gen Omega never will be the same like the PAM you're after and you're trying to get more accurate, but still this a valid point - think twice before unloading big-bucks to a rep ! Like I mentioned, even a mariage watch - with all your heartblood in it, after all that time and effort hunting the parts - is still not equal to a gen (talking about naked market value !). (In 99,9% of all cases - there always are exceptions to every rule !) To sum up: always be sure that your expectations are realistic ! This will save you a lot of money and time... If you're unsure - search for your similar watch shown by other members having the mods you're after - ask questions, read - whatever you do - but don't fly high and then be disappointed just because your watch has still not transformed into a gen ! Now to the more important point: modders/watchsmiths. As most of you know/remember - there were a few more members offering work on watches in the past. The number of these went up as our community grew - and one after another disappeared with the time except very few true craftsmen... Some of them just messed up the watches they did work on, some of them disappeared with your money and your watch - even if they were trusty in earlier times... Ever asked you why this happened so often ? Yeah, first point is to make easy, fast money. But almost all of them were (and I believe still are) honest persons and good members in our community !? So again: how could this happen ? After well more than a decade in reps and doing some watchwork for myself I'll give you some answers: I'll exaggerate it ridiculously just to make it clear ! Reps are junk in point of quality and quality control ! (Now that sounds like a post from a gen forum ) You try to remove a screw - it breaks. You remove a hand - the post breaks off. You try to clean the movement - the mainspring jumps out of it's barrel and hits your eye out !! Got the point ? You never know which problems are awaiting you ! And even our best (my opinion !!) man for these kind of jobs, Ziggy, is confronted with problems which can't be solved within a reasonable time and effort - so he doesn't accept these particular jobs !! IF you have a problem - you're often not able to fix it with standard parts you can get in your favourite stores, so what to do ? Yeah, you have to ask your dealer for spareparts or hunt after a broken watch to cannibalize or parts from other members... If that is not difficult enough, you must be sure to get your version of that part !! For example a crystal from a cartel submariner will not fit your noobmariner... Still not bored and following me ? Now think of yourself, having modded dozens of your own watches successfully - and now you accept a friends watch... You open up that caseback, unscrew the case clamp and *wham* the head of the screw breaks off !! Now you can't mount the movement securely again - so you have to remove the rest of that screw - and what was a 5-minute job takes you an hour now... If you can't remove it - you need help or a new movement - who will pay for that ? If you're a honest guy, it's your responsibility... You'll eat up the costs and hopefully get your lesson. What about having 20 watches on your bench - all from different members ? All of these watches could have invisible problems ! So you earn 30 bucks from each job - and mess one up causing a hit of 100 bucks... Is it worth it ? Another point: lets say you have a timeframe for working on watches of 2 hours a day - in this time you work on 2 watches. After going public with your skills in our fora and accepting work from others - you end up having to work on 10 watches a day in the same timeframe !! You're not capable to handle all the problems, the workload, the payments, the shippings etc. etc. So remember my words at the beginning: "...some messed up the watches..." (yeah ! because they didn't had the time to make all the work in the best way they normally are capable to do !!) and "...some took you money and your watches..." (These persons couldn't handle the mess they produced but also were blinded by the money...) All this is no excuse for anyone - but kind of explanation. Hard facts you should weigh in your thoughts and plans about your reps - or your career as a modder if you plan to offer services for anybody..! Thanks for all your time - hope I didn't bore you too much and I would like to read your comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 You make some good points (which cover some of the reasons I limit the amount of new work I take in). However, even with the best gen watches, you never know what you will find until you open the case or disassemble the movement. This is why watchsmithing is 90% experience & 10% knowledge. It is knowing how to handle the unexpected flying jewel or stripped screw or broken tooth that separates an amateur (like me) from a journeyman professional. Would you want to trust a student doctor, who may have committed the entire medical school's library to memory, to operate on your beautiful child? That is essentially what you are doing when you entrust the repair of your favorite watch to an inexperienced watchmaker. Sometimes, the best of intentions can result in botched jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_brian_ Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Excellent post - thanks for writing down your thoughts. "Reps are junk in point of quality and quality control !" - This is one of the reasons, why I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Great post namor! It actually voices some of the MANYdiscussions we have in admin on this subject. Another area of concern, is the documentation and monitoring of these jobs. I believe a lot of modders don't have a plan initially of how to control the levels of work they receive. No database, job numbers etc, and the whole problem is compounded by trying to deal with forum nicks and real names. I'm sure they don't initially comprehend the levels of work they potentially will receive, and don't plan ahead for this contingency. (As has been evidenced recently....and repeatedly!) Another issue with modding, is one of perception. What one person expects as reasonable, and another offers and thinks is acceptable. This is a VERY grey area, and it is not easy to reach a mutually acceptable level. This area of expectation is also sometimes clouded by language difficulties. So both modders and potential clients, need to go into an agreement, with their eyes wide open, and understand this is not a perfect science. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 You make some good points (which cover some of the reasons I limit the amount of new work I take in). However, even with the best gen watches, you never know what you will find until you open the case or disassemble the movement. This is why watchsmithing is 90% experience & 10% knowledge. It is knowing how to handle the unexpected flying jewel or stripped screw or broken tooth that separates an amateur (like me) from a journeyman professional. Would you want to trust a student doctor, who may have committed the entire medical school's library to memory, to operate on your beautiful child? That is essentially what you are doing when you entrust the repair of your favorite watch to an inexperienced watchmaker. Sometimes, the best of intentions can result in botched jobs. You're absolutely right ! But due to much better quality control and better assembly, better parts etc. the risk is lower when working on gen watches - also you can use standard parts to repair a defect - remember the early times when Ziggy repaired/serviced the asian 7750 movements and hadn't enough spareparts from other broken donor movements... Please have in mind that I speak generally here... Of course not every brand uses better parts or have a good quality control - and I had enough problems with gens too... Another issue with modding, is one of perception. What one person expects as reasonable, and another offers and thinks is acceptable. This is a VERY grey area, and it is not easy to reach a mutually acceptable level. I fully agree ! That point fits very good to my post - but let me add something too: when it comes to modding (for example crownguards of a sub) expectations may vary - but the modders/watchsmiths also offer standard work like replacing some scratched hands - and here we are at a point where expectations just go into one direction - a clean good job. The new hands should sit in their place, not scratching the dial, not flying around in crazy angles not anything else than just doing their job - turning round and round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sul Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Good post indeed. I try to buy only these watch model`s where I know that 90% of mod`s can be done by myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Great post... Over the point of modders getting in over their heads and being swamped with work. I've tried to understand that in the past, but simply - why can't they pace themselves and find a way to organise their work. Ziggy's model seems an easy one to follow - he controls very well what he has on at any one time (with J's help of course). But there are tools that can be used - IT tools (basic from the organizer in Outlook up to Project), or even using a paper based chart of the next month or 2. If you're a modder, and have accepted 10 jobs, why keep accepting more jobs at the same time. Why not tell people the next available date - or at least say don't ship within next 2-3 weeks. It's fantastic that people offer their services. And I'll not get into the point over mutual expectations of work. But really - if in real life you've got 20 things on at the same time, do you not try to delay accepting anything else, or at least give a date when you think you will be able to? The community wants/needs modders, and they're very much appreciated. I think the community would generally accept if a modder says "wait a couple of weeks". I know I have and would. These gems should not be overly pressured and burnt out - especially the new ones. Maybe some modders can comment a bit on this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 @Namor Excellent Post... This discussion needs to take place... Thanks! Double T . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athan Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 One's nightmare someone else's dream? Some people just love the adventure and the unpredictable... It's not always about acquiring the perfect copy of a luxury item. It's about the journey and how tricky you like it to be Rep Gen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailboss Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 and the whole problem is compounded by trying to deal with forum nicks and real names. Oh how true! My recent experiance with the bush fire fundraiser taught me this in short time (I actualy knew this allready, I had simply forgoten). It is amazing the extent to which this simple point complictaes things. Along with folk for whome english is a second (or even third) language. Not their fault of cause but still a further hurdle to overcome. Col. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustybrand Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I think also that the people who go over their watch with a 10x loupe after getting it back from being worked on should do the same before they send it. It might temper some of their outrage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 This is precisely the reason why I am not going to get into any kind of modding work. I know that at the moment, my knowledge of watch movements is virtually non-existent, and when it comes to mechanical skill, given that I'm not using any proper tools or magnification equipment, I know that I'm little more than a 'lucky bodger', and as for re-luming - I've never even tried using the medium. Of course, skills and knowledge grow in time, but right now, I feel it would simply be irresponsible for me to even consider working on anyone else's watches for payment, especially how there can indeed be differences between people's perceptions of what is acceptable and what is not. I'm determined not to let my reach exceed my grasp, so I leave the work to those who can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Excellent post indeed, might even be worth a sticky. It is the reasons you stated that I try to gain my own knowledge in modding or repairing so I can do my own watches. I do not yet have the proper workspace and complete tools to do as much as some members here, but I try to grow little by little and I do it for my own enjoyment. For those our there that think they want a perfectly modded dream watch, re-read this thread and realize that what you are looking to have is sometimes not realistic, especially if you want fast turnaround and perfection. Some modders do it right, and are true artisans, but even they have their limitations based on what they have to work with (cheaper quality parts which are hard to find replacements for). I wonder how many modders start out doing projects on thier kitchen table at nights only to find out that it is much more difficult than what they figured. They find that good lighting, magnification, dexterity (sp) with a screwdriver and the ability to keep things like dirt, hair and sweater lint out of the movement is all part of doing the work sucessfully. Still, they keep on until they have no choice but to dissapear. It also amazes me just how many folks spend thousands modding/building a rep or franken, only to sell it a couple of months later. Much the same as auto restoration I guess, once the project is done, its time to move on since the real interest is building, but even then, after so much work and money, why not enjoy it for a year or so. All this makes a case for getting what you want at the lowest possible price, learning as much as you can so you can take care of the little stuff yourself, and always remember that these are reps and will always be reps no matter what you do to them. When you identify what dream watch you want, shop for a proven modder who can do the work right, budget for the project, and when finished, make that dream watch one of the stars of your collection. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Excellent post indeed, might even be worth a sticky. It is the reasons you stated that I try to gain my own knowledge in modding or repairing so I can do my own watches. I do not yet have the proper workspace and complete tools to do as much as some members here, but I try to grow little by little and I do it for my own enjoyment. For those our there that think they want a perfectly modded dream watch, re-read this thread and realize that what you are looking to have is sometimes not realistic, especially if you want fast turnaround and perfection. Some modders do it right, and are true artisans, but even they have their limitations based on what they have to work with (cheaper quality parts which are hard to find replacements for). I wonder how many modders start out doing projects on thier kitchen table at nights only to find out that it is much more difficult than what they figured. They find that good lighting, magnification, dexterity (sp) with a screwdriver and the ability to keep things like dirt, hair and sweater lint out of the movement is all part of doing the work sucessfully. Still, they keep on until they have no choice but to dissapear. It also amazes me just how many folks spend thousands modding/building a rep or franken, only to sell it a couple of months later. Much the same as auto restoration I guess, once the project is done, its time to move on since the real interest is building, but even then, after so much work and money, why not enjoy it for a year or so. All this makes a case for getting what you want at the lowest possible price, learning as much as you can so you can take care of the little stuff yourself, and always remember that these are reps and will always be reps no matter what you do to them. When you identify what dream watch you want, shop for a proven modder who can do the work right, budget for the project, and when finished, make that dream watch one of the stars of your collection. Cheers Absolutely spot on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defender110 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 to be fair- in many cases the arguments (cons/negatives) that are made for the reps can be made for the gens. once a gen is opened or worked on.. you can have anything happen also, from as minor as a a nick/ding/scratch etc... to as major as not getting the watch back for 6months plus! and the quality in reps is amazing and saddening at the same time. pick your project carefully! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellus Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Intelligent post, namor, thank you ... I will think about it .... btw: PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceberg1459 Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 well collecting gens are also craziness...some people buy watches, wear few times and keep it in safe then sell it for half price couple of months later in ebay..just for enjoyment of owning the gen i guess and for frankenreps i guess its the enjoyment creating the watch your own, motivated by paying less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellus Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) ... sell it for half price couple of months later in ebay... Wrong watches ... half the price ... Right watches, double or four times or even more, the price ... ... f.e. Just like right red wines from Bordelais Rolex Daytona Cosmograph 16520 or Le Pin 1982 ... I bought it ( Le Pin) for about 42 German Marks, last week i sold it for 1480 Euros Edited March 19, 2009 by mellus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Great post. I think also that the people who go over their watch with a 10x loupe after getting it back from being worked on should do the same before they send it. It might temper some of their outrage. Ain't that the truth... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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