vlydog Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Set your sights high, be persistent and eventually good things will come your way. A little luck and good friends are also a winning combination. Well it looks like the planets have come together for me. I was smitten with the Tudor snowflake from the moment I laid eyes on TMG's gen in a wrist check thread just after I joined RWG. With all the current buzz around this beauty and with the likes of Ubi, Lani and Stephane strutting there stuff, I have no choice. It is time to give in. I was lucky enough to score a set of NOS lumi hands from the bay. Good fortune also came my way a short time later when I pinged Lani and asked if he would consider selling a dial that once belonged to Ubi. A trade deal was worked out and now the dial resides with me. If it were not for the good will of both Ubi and Lani this dream of mine would have still been in my pipe. I need the help of the RWG community. Both Ubi and Lani have weighed in with their opinions now I would like to hear what the rest of you have to say. I have to make a decision on how to lume the dial and hands. First I must say, I am not a big fan of the lume that shows a lot of age with the deep rusty color. I am more a fan of a light cream or ivory vintage lume like the dial of my 1665 or on this 5517 dial. It almost seems like a crime to desrtoy the naturally aged indexes on the dial I will be using... So what's a guy to do? As I see it there are only 3 choices. 1) Leave the dial alone and re-lume the hands to match the dial. 2) Re-lume the dial in white to match the hands. 3) Re-lume both the hands and dial in my favorite creamy tone. Your help please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Option 1 for me. Naturally aged lume and match the hands. You can't replicate mother nature.....Zig comes close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Having looked at that dial in person and also retrospectively in pics... I am beginning to lean towards that dial having relumed indicies already. I think you should have the markers relumed to match the NOS hands and add a NOS bezel insert. You'll have a nice, clean example... Just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I've always been a fan of the vintage patina look.. until now and my Ubi Franken ... regardless of what you decide .. that dial that is now in your care.. has traveled through this community.. with a lot of friendship and care.. as with my Ubifranken it's more than a project that took over a year.. it is a source of Pride and Camaraderie that binds Us.. Live Strong and Wear it Well B !! A~C R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 # 2 - Agree with Ubi....dial looks relumed already so relume it to match the hands. Don't relume the NOS hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Compare mine with Lani's... How could you not want NOS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 One more. Both all original. One NOS and one with active duty under it's belt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 # 2 - Agree with Ubi....dial looks relumed already so relume it to match the hands. Don't relume the NOS hands +1 here Mr B. Do not touch the hands You'll have a killer ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlydog Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Thank you so much to all who replied. I am certainly leaning all white at this point. This would be C1 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavidoc Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 If the hands are luminova, I would relume them. new hands can be obtained from RSC's. My blue has white luminova snowflake hands on it. If they are white tritium, I'd relume the dial. Thank you so much to all who replied. I am certainly leaning all white at this point. This would be C1 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Vly... T Swiss T Tritium .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 You know, Lani... I love my aged dial to pieces, but there's just something so clean about pure white... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 You know, Lani... I love my aged dial to pieces, but there's just something so clean about pure white... You know I have come to relish taking that "first" look at my Ubifranken snowflake when the sun is up .. then at twighlight the markers look a tad "offwhite" .. so it's like having the best of all worlds in that dial.. but I have to get it goin with some intense macros to show off the 'fluff' of the T lume.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlydog Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Vly... T Swiss T Tritium .... Nobody is using Tritium to re-lume dials nowadays right? If I want the white color on the dial, is Luminova my only choice? @Lani or Ubi... are the hands on Lani's sub Tritium or Luminova? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Nobody is using Tritium to re-lume dials nowadays right? If I want the white color on the dial, is Luminova my only choice? @Lani or Ubi... are the hands on Lani's sub Tritium or Luminova? Vly .. I noted the "T Swiss T" ..... as a reference .. like the 1680 and 1665 MBK dials ... C1 would be the option.. like your GW 1665.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJo35 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 B, here is my two cents, although it may not be what others seem to be suggesting. 1) Try to confirm the originality of the dial. Post it on VRF, do the UV test (I think there is a recent thread on VRF regarding the testing of gen dials for re-lume). 2) If in fact, it is an original un-touched gen dial, don't modify it. However, if you can confirm that it is already re-lumed, it's ruined already, so whatever you do to it can't make it any worse. 3) Hold out and look for a gen case & movement. If desperation sets in, just wait until a good gen comes up for sale. Gen Tudors still come fairly cheap, and can only increase in value. Buying a clean gen now is a win-win situation; plus, you would have the satisfaction of owning a 100% gen watch (even if you do build it from gen parts) Good luck with your project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm fairly certain that the dial has been relumed. Looking at the method, color tone and texture... It doesn't look like a factory application and the color doesn't look very natural; rather, it looks similar to a CWP lume job. The rest of the dial, however, is correct and original paint- Untouched in that regard. So, at least we have that going for it. A gen case and movement will push the price of the project up significantly; almost to the point where buying a gen would simply be more lucrative as the price difference wouldn't be much. However, adding an unsigned 2783 or 2784, the same base movement that Tudor uses would only be $60 - $70 at most; a gen serviced movement would be $550 - $600. A non-gen case would only be a few hundred vs $1,400 - $1,600. Factor in dial value, hands, etc... It would be easier and possibly a tiny bit less to just to buy a pre-owned serviced gen with some provenance behind it, considering that gens can be had at current rate for around $3k; $5k for a clean MN example. Not much by any stretch of the means, but the goal with a franken is to achieve the same level of build while keeping the investment on parts low. Personally, for a wearer, I don't really mind what's under the caseback. If it were an investment piece, then getting gen makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Some comparison shots... CWP dial: Now compare the lume: Gen lume: Gen lume: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavidoc Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm with Ubi. That dial appears to be a relume. Values for Tudor Subs (9401 and 9411) are definately NOT cheap. Poor condition ones from reputable sellers on forums can easily fetch around 2k now. The later 76100 and 79090's are still hovering around the 2k mark for a pristine example but be prepared to shell out (as Ubi said) 3k for a pristine Tudor Snowflake. MN's go for more then 5k though. IF you are lucky, you can find a correct Tudor movement (2784) for these 9411's for considerably less then $500 but you've got to search. They pop up on occasion but are normally run ragged. I was lucky and got a NM one for less then $200. Debating on using it for a watch myself or holding onto it as a spare for my Gen 9411. What's good about the gen movement is that if you are lucky and are able to source a real case, you could easily take it to an RSC and they'd fix it up like a gen and put real parts on instead of the aftermarket pieces. Technically if you're willing to shell out the bones, you could take a real dial/movement/bezel/bezel insert/crown watch with an aftermarket case to the RSC and they'd replace the case. Cost you a pretty penny but would propbaly be less then the current rate for a NM 9411 would run you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Hmmm... Last MN I saw for sale was $5100 and that was roughly 4 wks ago. So, more than $5k, sure. $100 more. But that was not a retail price. No paps either... Folks are selling in this market... And at good prices if you know the right people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavidoc Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Hmmm... Last MN I saw for sale was $5100 and that was roughly 4 wks ago. So, more than $5k, sure. $100 more. But that was not a retail price. No paps either... Folks are selling in this market... And at good prices if you know the right people... AHHHH...No papers. That's why. I wouldn't touch an MN without provenance and papers and that's if I knew the seller. IIRC last one I saw go that had the DeComm paper went for close to 6k through a private person to person sale. That was a few months ago though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Just got home and looking through a couple of my notes for curiosity's sake... Last listed MN with papers/docs I noted was $14k retail/consumer price. Last unlisted MN no papers/docs sold at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 AHHHH...No papers. That's why. I wouldn't touch an MN without provenance and papers and that's if I knew the seller. I dunno. If the seller happened to be the same individual that the watch was originally issued to for active service, I wouldn't have a problem with no papers/docs. That would be enough provenance for me. Same would go for a 5517. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre V Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 I'm with Ubi. That dial appears to be a relume. Values for Tudor Subs (9401 and 9411) are definately NOT cheap. Poor condition ones from reputable sellers on forums can easily fetch around 2k now. The later 76100 and 79090's are still hovering around the 2k mark for a pristine example but be prepared to shell out (as Ubi said) 3k for a pristine Tudor Snowflake. MN's go for more then 5k though. Have been doing some research on Tudor Snowflake prices. A pristine Tudor Snowflake will command more than 3k in my opinion. On some Vintage forums, sellers are asking up to 6k these days for one that has been overhauled complete with box and papers --- whether they sell, that's a different question. I am on the verge of acquiring a 94010 and seller is asking above 3k, and this is for the head only. 79090s are hovering at the 2k and above mark, but at the low 2k's, they are almost always snapped up immediately --- just saw one excellent example fly for 2.1k. Most of the sellers I have been communicating with, wants 2.6k - 2.9k for theirs. Compared with the prices in 2006-2007 when most Snowflakes (aside from M.N) were hovering in the region of 1700-1900, prices have indeed increased. Ebay sellers are asking close to 4k for their Snowflakes. In conclusion, the vintage market is seeing a consistent rise in prices --- in comparison with a few Rolex vintages prices from 2001-2002 and comparing with their command these days, the folds of increase is simply mind-shattering...don't forget those wallets and bank accounts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavidoc Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Agree with everything you said. I traded an Exp II with box and papers for my Near Mint 9411 that was serviced at the RSC Australia in May. Considering how much the Exp II have dropped in value on the 2nd hand market, I think I did really good. When comparing the vintage Tudor Subs to their more common Rolex counterparts, they have increased in demand and price while the Rolex have dropped in value. 5513's can be found for $3500 and white dial 1680's in the $4200 range. Unheard of even last year yet last year you could get a 9411 for around 2k for a great example and they sat around forever if even at $2500. I was able to get my 5513 from 1982 (with original dial and hands and the service dial and hands) for just a little more then I paid for my Tudor Sub. Never would have happened even early last year. I would pass on that 9401 if over 3k and no bracelet. Overpriced. A no bracelet 9401 should go for around the 2.5 mark dependent upon condition. CLoser to 2k if the dial and hands are rough. Have been doing some research on Tudor Snowflake prices. A pristine Tudor Snowflake will command more than 3k in my opinion. On some Vintage forums, sellers are asking up to 6k these days for one that has been overhauled complete with box and papers --- whether they sell, that's a different question. I am on the verge of acquiring a 94010 and seller is asking above 3k, and this is for the head only. 79090s are hovering at the 2k and above mark, but at the low 2k's, they are almost always snapped up immediately --- just saw one excellent example fly for 2.1k. Most of the sellers I have been communicating with, wants 2.6k - 2.9k for theirs. Compared with the prices in 2006-2007 when most Snowflakes (aside from M.N) were hovering in the region of 1700-1900, prices have indeed increased. Ebay sellers are asking close to 4k for their Snowflakes. In conclusion, the vintage market is seeing a consistent rise in prices --- in comparison with a few Rolex vintages prices from 2001-2002 and comparing with their command these days, the folds of increase is simply mind-shattering...don't forget those wallets and bank accounts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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