ubiquitous Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I am oft times asked the question of 'who has the best Daytona', and figured I would put together a brief, quick guide on my perspective regarding the subject matter To start, I would highly recommend anyone considering a Daytona to read ByTor's great review and buyer's guide for the 7750 sec@6:00 model. My posting here is more along the lines of addressing some of the general aspects of the popular reps out there, along with a brief explanation of their characteristics and follow up with some insight on putting together franken-Daytonas and why I choose to go the route of building. So, the question goes: "I am looking to buy a daytona and have started like the vintage reps. Do you know if they have the seconds at six problems like the daytona's now or was there ever a problem? Should I just shoot for the current style daytonas?" First, let's run through the variations of popular reps out there, and their details: Vintage- 6263 1) 6263/5- DW with mystery movement- These models have a dummy hour counter @ 6:00 and are fitted with bi-compax movements of questionable reliability and unknown caliber ref, origin, etc. This makes servicing these watches nearly impossible as one would not even know where to find correct replacement parts for an unknown caliber (and believe me- More often than not, they are required). However, the subdial spacing is accurate to gen, case measures a correct 37.xmm with 19mm lugs, pushers are asymmetric (as per gen) and overall, a very nice looking watch (and hopefully free of problems for those lucky few who have serviced and operating examples *cough*kruzer*cough*). One other issue to note is that the early examples have excellent gen-like bracelets (78350) with hollow links and 571 end links, while the more current versions have mediocre bracelets fitted (poor fitting end links, solid links, etc). two different generations of DW with mystery movements; silver dial is a 2nd generation while the PN and 6263 are 1st generation 2) 6263/5- DW or EE with 7750- Better than the mystery movement models in terms of reliability, however the subdial spacing is incorrect and because the 7750 is a relatively thick movement, the caseback is substantially larger than the gen as it must facilitate a winding rotor. However, one could always remove the rotor and install a slimmer caseback; you would be relegated to handwinding only with this option (which is correct for this era/vintage of Daytona). All DW and EE 7750 cases are 37.xmm, and have asymmetric pushers; all EE watches have the nice hollow link 19mm 78350/571 bracelet combos while the DWs are hit or miss. an immaculate example of an EE6263 3) 6263/5- Seagull based Daytonas still suffer the incorrect subdial spacing issues and also carry a dummy hour counter at 6:00. Cases can vary in size- Some are the correct 37mm with 19mm lugs while others are 40mm with 20mm lugs. The Seagull models typically have symmetric (evenly spaced) pushers. The movement in this one is pretty robust however and will likely lend to problem free enjoyment. empty seagull case on the right- 40mm case and 20mm lugs Neo-vintage- 16520 3) 16520- 7750 based 'El Primero' Daytonas have the subdial spacing issues, as the 7750 cannot easily replicate the closely grouped subdial positions as the El Primero 400 without modification. The El Primero 400/Rolex 4030 is also a fairly slim movement for a chronograph (6.5mm vs. the 7.9mm profile of the 7750)- largely thanks to the fact that it is an integrated chrono and hence the case for 7750 based pieces are a bit taller to accommodate the extra height (This applies to both case and caseback, I believe). If the subdial spacing does not bother you, this is a good candidate for a Daytona rep. 4) 16520- Asian movement with faux chronograph. These watches have a standard movement inside with a dummy chronograph 'look' to appear as though it is a full functional chronograph watch. I have not seen or handled one of these so I cannot say as to whether the subdials are completely faux/glued on hands, if they act as a calendar function (day/date/month) or if the pushers simply move the hands arbitrarily around their subdials. Nice, slim case, but no functionality. Current- 116520 5) 116520- 7750 based seconds at 9:00 modern Daytonas will house a reliable, unmodified 7750 movement inside with incorrectly spaced and positioned subdials. The genuine Rolex 4130 has the hour and minute subdials at 9:00 and 3:00 and these registers are positioned slightly above axis of the crown and center hour/min/stopwatch seconds pinions. The case for this model is only slightly thicker than the 16520- Still a bit thicker than a gen 116520 (which has a 12.7-ish mm profile thanks to a slightly thinner movement than the El Primero 400) as the rep has to use the 7750, but overall case/caseback dimensions are probably the closest to being accurate (but still off). 6) 116520- 7750 based seconds at 6:00 modern Daytonas offer the correct subdial layout/position/functions as gen, but will be a less reliable movement due to the re-engineering of the subdial positions and added friction of additional gears (for more information on this, there are several threads discussing the topic, please search for additional detail). As the movement has additional plates/gears added, this makes the movement even thicker than a standard 7750- As a result, the watch casing is larger to accommodate the extra height + rotor, which means either a thicker case, thicker caseback or both. The thicker case models also have a taller rehaut and thicker, more angular bezel, which is incorrect for this model. For these reasons, the thinner case with shallow rehaut and flat bezel (but with thick caseback) is preferred. thick cased 116520; Valjoux 7750 mod sec@6:00 thin cased 116520; Valjoux 7750 mod sec@6:00 I built for a family member. This one kicked the bucket within a few months So, how can one obtain a nice, accurate Daytona? The short answer is to build one. Luckily, Rolex had utilized outsourced chronograph movements for the last few decades while developing their own in house. What this means is that the movements for the 6263 and 16520 are fairly common in other brands and models of watches, whch can make for an interesting project. For 6263/5s and the numerous other flavors of handwind Daytonas, one can opt for a nice, V72 specific casing from a number of different vendors either on the net, on eBay, secondary market here on RWG, etc. A fully built handwind Daytona using a V72 is a great option because the gen uses a Valjoux 72 as the basis for the Rolex 727 movement as well. So, needles to say, gen parts like dials and hands fit (if you care to spend that much for these bits and pieces), etc. Cases will also accept gen crystals, pushers, crowns/tubes, bracelets, etc. For the most accurate build, the V72 is the first choice. A second option would be to use a DW with mystery movement and swap the motor out for a Swiss V23. This is a nice, low cost, lower budget option for those that don't mind a slightly taller rehaut, lower positioned crown and a dummy hour counter at 6:00. It's probably the most straight forward option for replacing a busted DW mystery (misery?) movement. my very first DW with Swiss V23 transplanted For 16520s- I can only recommend one route and that's to build. Since Rolex used the El Primero as the basis for their caliber 4030, this makes for an easy, no brainer of a very popular watch. Utilizing an El Primero 400 will mean that a gen dial will fit, however the hands will require a slight bit of finessing to fit (Rolex changes out the seconds, hour and minute pinions for their own proprietary parts that differ a bit compared to the El Primero). EP400 specific cases exist, albeit pricey, however the fit of the movement, dial, pushers, crown, crystal, bezel is a straight forward swap. Not cheap, but this is the most viable solution and the results speak for themselves El Primero frankensteins; gen dials, EP400's, etc. My pair of grails As of current, there are no real building options for the current modern 116520 Daytona. The 4130 is a completely in-house caliber and so sourcing a movement from other donor watches like the V72 and EP400 isn't really an option. All one can really do in this sense is get the best rep possible and maybe employ the graphite fix that some of our members have employed. It seems to work well... So, for accuracy, reliability, quality and longevity, I would recommend a build using as much genuine content as possible. It costs a bit more to achieve a finished product, but in the end, you'll have a nice, well built, fully functional gen equivalent watch (without the gen price tag) and the path to get there will be a fun, educational experience as well. Hope this rundown helps; I tersely put it together as I'm a bit tight on time, but it should get the general point across. For anything I missed, please feel free to add or inquire... Cheers, R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Thank you UBI! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Well done and researched, thanks for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Fantastic guide Ubi. Thanks for sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmarin.72 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I thank you sir Ubi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 RWG is at its best when Ubi's participation rises to this level.... Thanks, R for the very pin-worthy post!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asf Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 You are the man!!! thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 That's very informative, thanks indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gplracer Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Ubi as always a great review that willbe helpful to many forum users. You know so much more than me so I am reluctant to add this but you might want to add info about some choices having asymetrical pushers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milsub5517 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 thanks for excellent write up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Thanks for the kind words, gang! I put this little write up together to hopefully answer the more common questions for folks who are interested in Daytonas gplracer- Very good point re: pusher spacing. I went ahead and added that into the guide as well as some bracelet and case info for the 6263/5's. Thanks for that suggestion! Also wanted to get opinions... Would pics be of benefit for such a guide? If so... I can add some... Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utheman Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Thanks for the kind words, gang! I put this little write up together to hopefully answer the more common questions for folks who are interested in Daytonas gplracer- Very good point re: pusher spacing. I went ahead and added that into the guide as well as some bracelet and case info for the 6263/5's. Thanks for that suggestion! Also wanted to get opinions... Would pics be of benefit for such a guide? If so... I can add some... Thanks again! Absolutely, pictures would be icing on the cake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Pics added where applicable- Please forgive the quality as some of my images are several years old I added images where I could; I haven't owned all of these variations, but I have had my fair share... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clkcadet Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 No worries Ubi, this is sticky material! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utheman Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Pics added where applicable- Please forgive the quality as some of my images are several years old I added images where I could; I haven't owned all of these variations, but I have had my fair share... Awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Dis has gotta be pinnded.. Superlative ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milsub5517 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 haha. thats why i did not see pics the first time. i thought i was going crazy..... may be i should stop checking this thread so often... IMO, properly done daytonas are the "whales" of the rep world! guys, i wish the parts were not so expensive....! Pics added where applicable- Please forgive the quality as some of my images are several years old I added images where I could; I haven't owned all of these variations, but I have had my fair share... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterJere Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Are there any other options?? I mean, isn't there some dealer out there that will build a nice daytona exactly how you just recommended? I know nothing about Building watches and I'd like to just pay someone to do what you recommended.... Or buy from someone you guys recommend? Cheers, Jeremiah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Beautiful and informative write-up This should get people like me off your back asking about this watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Are there any other options?? I mean, isn't there some dealer out there that will build a nice daytona exactly how you just recommended? I know nothing about Building watches and I'd like to just pay someone to do what you recommended.... Or buy from someone you guys recommend? Cheers, Jeremiah I would recommend Rolex, they have the best and most exact Daytonas, but there's a waiting list for the all-steel examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Heh... Kinda funny to look back on my old images from when I first started... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letter Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Whoa...great post Ubi! Been trying to figure out all these different versions for a long time! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 :notworthy: Amazing information on Daytonas, from the godfather of Daytonas! as the rest have mentioned, this REALLY should be pinned! May I also add that Ubi gave me a wealth of info when i was just starting to look to build my 6263..always patient, always forthcoming with every bit of information... ...And i still lust after those El Primeros, btw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paneraitom Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Great stuff!! Thanks Ubi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I think Ubi should be the one writing this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolex_Daytona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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