Antique Rep Watches?

[Victoria]

This post was inspired by a mordant thought on my part, about the fate of rep watches after one dies. But bear with me, it's more intricate.

I was also watching the American version of Antiques Roadshow recently, when I noticed hyper-blond appraiser Leigh Keno wearing his JLC Reverso Duo so loosely, the face was sitting on the side of his wrist! Ugh, I hate that.

Then, a bracket clock from the late 1700s was appraised, and it was valued at about U$5,000. Not a heck of a lot for such a vintage clock, and a beautiful one at that.

The thing that brought down its value, is that there was no mark from the maker believed to have made it (in and of itself, not so rare, as trademarks weren't as usual until the mid-1800s).

Was the intimation that someone had duplicated this clock using a well-known watchmaker's design?

Was this the first rep clock in the world?

My thoughts then turned to my old Tag Heuer Link (which I posted in By-Tor's Tag Eyecandy thread) and Cartier Tank reps, which I bought, oh maybe 17 years ago, when I was holidaying in Morocco. They're rusty, but they do run, and I haven't thrown them away.

So, long story short, questions:

What fate do you foresee rep watches having in your own lifetime? Will you keep them as curios in your collection, in effect making them antiques*? What is the age of your oldest rep watch, and why have you kept it?

*Remember, an antique is any material good over 25 years of age.

Just 8 more years.

(Hmm, just asked my mother when we went to Morocco...might have been a little later than thought)

[Guest avitt]

I've thought about this a little....I've even given thought to signing some of my Franken creations. Who knows? Maybe years from now, they'll be appraised, and identified with the Replica Watch Revolution of the early 21st Century.

(Interestingly, some antique fakes are highly valued. I remember seeing a ripoff Stradivarious on the Roadshow...it was appraised for a surprising amount.)

[LordRasta]

Maybe I'll put them out to pasture when my wife puts me out to pasture.

[Victoria]

I've thought about this a little....I've even given thought to signing some of my Franken creations. Who knows? Maybe years from now, they'll be appraised, and identified with the Replica Watch Revolution of the early 21st Century.

Thanks for this honest response!

My first thought is why not? Have you heard of Han van Meegeren? He's the painter-hoaxster who was so upset at critics mocking his own talent, that he went about faking some of the great painters of the Dutch Golden Age -- Vermeer, Hals, ter Bosch.

In his famous post-WWII forgery trial, he was accused of having sold Dutch intellectual property to Nazis, so he had to admit that he himself had forged these masterpieces, and painted another from his gaol cell!

There are still some of his forgeries around, and they command interesting top prices in certain underground circles, I hear.

You could be him!

(Interestingly, some antique fakes are highly valued. I remember seeing a ripoff Stradivarious on the Roadshow...it was appraised for a surprising amount.)

Exactly.

As long as people have been in the presence of genius, they've wanted to cash in on it, or not even that -- to try to see if they can create something so like, that even experts cannot distinguish the original from replica.

Have you noticed how modders in this business are very competitive? Ego plays a huge role, Avitt. Go for it!

[freddy333]

I bought my 1st rep in the late 70s but, at the risk of overexposing the members to its inimitable charms, this is my 1st (now 20 years old) franken (I replaced the two tone end links & bracelet clasp with gen parts, which, back then, could be purchased over-the-counter from most ADs)

Back then, reps were so poorly made & so few people knew much about Rolex watches that this one was quite a benchmark. It was the MBW DRSD of its day & considered outrageously priced since the retail on the gen Datejust was less than about $2000 at the time. I retain it as a benchmark against which all newcomers are measured.

And in case anyone is interested, here are a few pages from the last catalogue/order form from 'Swiss Enterprises', which is the company I ordered this watch from back (according to the post date on the envelope) in 12/87. My watch was a special custom order (because I was a regular customer they located the 'linen' dial for me) based on #203-AQL (the 'L' was the 'ultimate' rep at the time -- the 1st with an ETA movement & laser-cut (real) gold-plated bezel)

Back then (before the web), if you wanted something better than the average Canal Street fake, you had to find someone who knew someone, because distribution was done completely by word-of-mouth.

[tmg]

Interesting topic V.

What will we do with all these watches 20+ years from now. Funny, we see it now with forum veterans talking about older or small run reps that are rare and command higher prices.

I've had a watch fascination for over 25 years, but only collected reps in the last 2 years. I guess my first rep (surprise a Rolex sub) is in a landfill somewhere and was a $10 Canal St. special I purchased in NY probably 15 years ago. It died a horrible death two weeks after its purchase and had green toned glass for a cyrstal.

I used to collect a lot of militaria and have way too much gear (hmmm... "TMG") and often wondered what the hell I would do with all this stuff too! -I guess sell it, let my kid inherit this crap or go on antiques roadshow with it

[Victoria]

And in case anyone is interested, here is the order form I ordered the watch from back (according to the post date on the envelope) in 12/87. The watch is #201-214 L (the 'L' was the 'ultimate' rep at the time -- the 1st with an ETA movement & laser-cut (real) gold-plated bezel)

WOW! This is Antique Rep gold.

Thanks, Freddy. Look at those prices...in 1987. Maybe the collectors today aren't charging as much as we though, huh?

For the record, I inherited my mum's counterfeit watch genes. I remember house parties where instead of Tupperware, rich old biddies would sell each other rep Cartier Tanks, Rolexes, Piagets (huge back in the '80s) galore. Where they got them is a mystery to me.

I still have one of her earliest Rolex DJ reps (perhaps 25 years old!), and let me tell you, it runs and looks great still.

EDIT: When I get a chance, I'll unearth it, same as your pic.

Freddy, your list is priceless. Thanks again!

P.S.: Hey, how come the Piaget Emperador is listed for $170, and Andrew can't even get one for me for $98, now?

[Victoria]

Interesting topic V.

Thanks, TMG.

What will we do with all these watches 20+ years from now. Funny, we see it now with forum veterans talking about older or small run reps that are rare and command higher prices.

I wonder if there will be a REAL market for these one day. A rare Davidsen (with correct font).

And as sure I am sitting here, some History major will write their dissertation on the phenomena of rep watch collecting in the late 20th-early 21st century. Micro-History GOLD. You can take that to the bank.

I've had a watch fascination for over 25 years, but only collected reps in the last 2 years. I guess my first rep (surprise a Rolex sub) is in a landfill somewhere and was a $10 Canal St. special I purchased in NY probably 15 years ago. It died a horrible death two weeks after its purchase and had green toned glass for a cyrstal.

Wow, did people really throw away their rep watches, back in the day? I can understand the Canal Street stuff, but with so many Frankenprojects being the norm these days, that's less done, I think.

The internet just changed everything, since there is a place to sell even the least desirable stuff for parts.

I used to collect a lot of militaria and have way too much gear (hmmm... "TMG") and often wondered what the hell I would do with all this stuff too! -I guess sell it, let my kid inherit this crap or go on antiques roadshow with it

TMG = Too Much Gear...ahhh. A fellow pack rat.

[FasTTaP]

My first thought is why not? Have you heard of Han van Meegeren? He's the painter-hoaxster who was so upset at critics mocking his own talent, that he went about faking some of the great painters of the Dutch Golden Age -- Vermeer, Hals, ter Bosch.

In his famous post-WWII forgery trial, he was accused of having sold Dutch intellectual property to Nazis, so he had to admit that he himself had forged these masterpieces, and painted another from his gaol cell!

There are still some of his forgeries around, and they command interesting top prices in certain underground circles, I hear.

You could be him!

Anyone interested in that guy and who likes movies should definitely check F for Fake by Orson Wells... a great movie about the master of rep

[Guest watchbuff]

I would ove to think they will be revered as a valued item, ever. They hold value to the owner only I would think. My first Franken is prblably worth only what I have inversted in parts, maybe. As time goes by only if the case, crowns become more rare will it be worth more. As for the reps, even ULTRA reps, they will be pretty much worthless to anyone other than us.

Just an observation from what I have seen of the nature of people. As long as "intellectual property" laws are on the books and we are forced to keep our fairly expensive reps with real swiss movement and mods for mods up the wa-zoo, they will remain a guarded secret to the general public. Therefore considered worthless, doomed to be carergorized as the $10.00 quartz rolex everyone thinks of when they know it's a fake time piece. Only we know the craftsmenship that is involved by ourselves and modders to make them "better" and as good a s timepiece as their ridiculously priced counterparts.

They are what they are, forgeries, damn good ones at though. It would not stop me from appreciating the craftmensip involved, and easier to criticize the ones that fall below our standards.

Consider this, like having a lamborghini kit car, it's still just an old pontiac underneath and worth no more than that, even less due to the perception of impracticality of whomever would be so judgemental.

[Guest avitt]

Consider this, like having a lamborghini kit car, it's still just an old pontiac underneath and worth no more than that, even less due to the perception of impracticality of whomever would be so judgemental.

I disagree....

Some of what is being done here can be likened to creating a Factory Five Shelby kit car...actually worth quite a bit more than the Mustang chassis on which it's based....

Edited October 23, 2007 by avitt

[freddy333]

Consider this, like having a lamborghini kit car, it's still just an old pontiac underneath and worth no more than that, even less due to the perception of impracticality of whomever would be so judgemental.

I think there is an important difference (favoring kit cars) -- Kit cars (copies of vintage/collectible models constructed with standard, off-the-shelf components) are generally legal, while franken watches (which many law schools cite as a textbook definition of trademark infringement) are not. This is why a kit car based on a Lotus Super 7 or Cobra is likely to retain much of its value as a replica car, while a franken watch has virtually no overt value to the public because of its status as contraband. Sure, there will always be underground sites or groups who appreciate the craftsmanship & are willing to pay to own a good franken, but, with a few notable exceptions (Avitt's 6263 & 6265 or Ubi's pair of 16520s come immediately to mind), I doubt that most reps will maintain (or gain) any real value over time.

[P4GTR]

you guys owe it to yourself to check out a movie called incognito. Its about a master art forger. Its not too old yet, '97. Do yourself a favor and remember to check it out.

I dont suppose these watches of mine will ever have any monitary value. I don't care, they are my pleasure. I hope they last as a genuine would. If/when something happens to me, I can only hope someone will cherish them as I have. It surprises me how enamored I am.

[eunomians]

@Freddy333:

Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting those pages.

Every now & then, I've wondered if I could find any traces of mail-order replica watches in my stuff from 20+ years ago. Thus far, to no avail. Anyhow, very interesting stuff.

Best regards

[NotASolder]

You can always make sure to leave your Rolex and Panerai collection to your least favorite relative.

"I leave my entire Rolex Style Submariner collection (26 pieces complte with anchors and boxes) to my dear nephew Andy and my entire Panerai Style Black Seal collection (6 pieces complete with outer, inner box and CertifiDato) to aunt Jollie."

Imagine their excitement when the will is read. They probably won't even notice the word 'style' in there.

*******

I do wonder if one of the bigger collectors here were to 'buy the farm' unexpectedly; Will any of those left behind now that they ARE reps?

[Dizzy]

my oldest rep is a broken yellow gold president from probably the early 1990's. I have two OLD mbw? subs from about 10 yrs ago that are still more accutate that most ETA sub reps available today. I will never throw them out but one day i will put new movements in them. My old two tone sub is amazingly accurate for its time. I think a lot of these vintage franken watches being built now (like the mbw 1665 and 1680) will always hold their value accordingly. I dont think todays out fo the box super-reps will be anything special in the future becase we have seen leaps and bounds in the manufacturing industy. Reps will only get better and better and i cant wait to see what is in store for us 5 yrs down the road.. i think ALL high end reps will be perfect like the Breitling SFSO and ceramic HBB

[Guest watchbuff]

Dont get me wrong, to another collector they will be worth what they are worth. look into what people have for sale, they are not fetching what they paid and that is a good guage of what it is worth.

I could see if I bought the farm, my son getting a watch that he would call a "fake" and hold it for sentimental value. Like OJ's fake Rolex, even if it was a $1000.00 super mod, it was still a $120.00 "fake".

To adress the notion that good factory 5 will fetch as more than the mustang it was built on is true, rare exception to the rule. However, it is still a kit car and will NEVER get what the owner put into it. No warranty, no guarantees the parts will all play nice together and sure as sh*t going to be constant maintence.

[Guest avitt]

I'll agree with that assertion. Most reps, even super reps and frankens, will never retrieve what the owner/builder put into them.

An exception is the vintage Daytona...this is because they are built around relatively scarce vintage movements, whose numbers will dwindle over time. This may change entirely if a replica VJ72 movement is developed..but for now, there is no substitution.