automatico

"The Link is to a Red 1680 with a fake Mid case." Thanks, I am not really sharp enough to tell but that would explain the no bevel lugs. It seems there may be quite a few vintage watches with replica parts unknown to the owners. I wonder if this guy knows? Probably not. I have a red IG44 dial that looks a whole lot like the one on the watch too. I am not very good at busting fake stuff, I'm more of a movement guy...and not too good at that. Suspicion seems to be raising its ugly head... "Service papers only mention bezel insert replacement. Could a 46 year old bezel be in such good condition? Hmmmm." "The mid case is fake. Engravings are completely wrong. Long E, Incorrect Stainless Steel, Incorrect size."

sneed 12: "When a movement has a Novodiac shock spring and the retaining clip has only 1 notch, it's a clone." True....almost always. I have a genuine parts junker 2836 with a fouled up HS so I removed the balance and HS from an 'unknown clone' and installed it on the genuine 2836 balance [censored] (balance c-o-c-k is the proper name but it gets censored) with the three notch Novodiac shock spring and away it went, keeping good time. The only difference was the HS stud was a little bit loose in the fork that retains it so you squeeze the forks together a little. Not much way to tell if this has been done. Clone 'balance complete' sells for around $20 on eBay. This has probably been done to some of the 'genuine swiss Etas' in replicas etc.

The beginning of the story... I bought two DW 1680 cases a few years ago that did not arrive in a timely manner (about 3 months iirc) and DW sent me two more. The first two finally arrived and I sent them back but as far as I know they never made it back to DW. Later I bought a couple more direct from DW and a few from him on eBay before he went rogue plus one '5513' mid case from an RWG member. So...I ended up with about 10 DW cases, some fully signed, some partially signed, and a few 'buck naked'. What to do with them? The first one was used to house a 1680 'Mk I' dial and 1570 movement from an old 1680 with a rotted out case. The '5513' mid case was used for a 5513 project with genuine 1520 hack, Yuki dial, ST bezel kit, GS crystal, TC tube/crown, drilled lugs...and a case back from a 'River' Exp II from the TRC days. I had to cut a gasket groove in the case because the River cb did not have a gasket groove and was not thick enough to cut one. I also had to make a little thin spacer out of aluminum to fit between the dial seat and dial. Making the flimsy spacer was ahellofa mess. It had to be made in a 90 year old (just a guess) bezel chuck. Why the spacer in the '5513' case? Because all the DW cases I have are made the same inside as a genuine 1680 case, like the MBK cases, the difference being that all the DW cases have a 26.5mm dial window opening like a 1680 and the MBK cases have a 26.0mm dial window opening like a 5512/13. Why not just buy a 5513 case back rather than cut the gasket groove in the case? Because any good cb with a gasket groove would have cost more than I paid for a complete DW case and the River cb was a freebie. Time rocks on and the DW 1680 with the 1570 and Mk I dial are still in the safe since being finished on 4-4-2011, the '5513' is all apart with the 1520/Yuki dial put in a MBK case, and now I am wearing a DW '1680' with a no hack rlx 1570/5, Yuki dial etc but it still has the original spring wire bezel and crystal as does the '1680' in the safe. I never changed the bezels out. I have also put together a few projects and taken them apart using DW cases but the three mentioned are the only watches that were completely finished. Score... Add one point for the DW case vs the MBK case because a 1570/5 and dial will drop right in. Subtract one point for pot belly case sides and no lug bevels. Add it back if you like the used vintage look of no bevels etc. Subtract one point for the spring wire bezel although they work fine (a ST/Cark bezel kit will work with the right crystal). Add one point for cost, DW cases cost about 50% of what an MBK case sells for now, about 30% of a Yuki case, and 20% of a Phong case. In a few years a DW case will probably go up a little but MBK cases will probably go up a lot. Yuki and Phong will probably go up in cost too. After looking at a few hundred supposedly genuine 5513/1680 on the internet...I found quite a few 5513/1680 with no lug bevels and here is one I spotted today... http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=7186910&rid=0#msg_7186910 I have also seen quite a few genuine watches with pot belly case sides, no doubt caused by wear and polishing. Wear a DW case watch a year or two and you have the vintage look. The end of the story (finally) ... What's the bottom line to all this BS? In retrospect, DW cases turned out to be better than I first gave them credit for. I mostly dissed them because they had 'pot belly' case sides and no lug bevels. So... maybe DW cases ain't so bad after all. Too bad they are gone from the scene.

"Yuki is the only one that can hold the gen date disc and accept gen hands." "So, Yuki is the only option so far?" Swiss Eta 2836 or 2892 are other options but they may take a little more work. They are very reliable though. A genuine or aftmkt 3135 date disc will work on an Eta 2836/2892 but you have to cement it over the existing date disc...the 3135 disc rotates the same direction as a 2836/2892, 1530 and 3035 discs do not. I have a 15200 with a Mido/Eta 12892 (12.5 ligne, the 2892 is 11.5 ligne) with a genuine dial, date disc, hands, case, crown, crystal...all genuine except the movement and strap/buckle. A forum friend put it together and I bought it. The dial feet were clipped off and dial dots were used (iirc) to hold the dial in place for installation The movement is held in place by case clamps and screws and the pressure on the movement exerted by the case clamps also helps hold the dial in place. The 2892 Eta hands are .90/1.50/.25 and the rolex 3135 hands are .95/1.40/.22 so the H hand had to be closed a bit and the M and SS hands had to be opened. The nos chronometer grade Mido movement was serviced and the case still had the green sticker on it. It was basically a new watch. At today's prices it will probably cost close to $1000 to put one together with a 3135 clone or serviced/nos Eta 2836/2892. I would go with the 2836 because parts are easy to get (compared to a 3135 clone) and all repair guys are familiar with them. I do not remember what was said about the space under the dial for the date disc on the 12892 but the 2836 has enough room. The H wheel, CP etc might have been swapped for taller parts but do not remember. The main difference between the 12892 and 2892 is the 12892 main plate is larger in diameter but will still fit into genuine spec rolex cases. Here are some good pictures of an Eta 2892: http://www.chronometrie.com/eta2892/eta289202.html

"As far as I'm concerned vintage and good don't go together, but that's just me"

"Sounds great but I don't like the idea of a Quartz mvt for some reason!" Can't argue with that, quartz is not for everyone. The Santos autos in this size had a bulge on the case back for the thicker movement back when I bought the genuine watch and did not conform as well to the wrist, that is why I chose quartz. Back then the quartz models were a lot thinner and the case back was curved to match the case. I owned a genuine Cartier Tank Francaise automatic in 2005 (about the same size as the Santos) and it had a thin Eta 2000 auto movement in it. Now they use a thinner movement (Eta 2000?) in the Santos automatics and thinned the case backs down and flattened them out. There is an older auto Santos on eBay, item number 301852794938 that shows the bulge in the case back in the last two pictures. It is an earlier model with the regular (not hidden) clasp. A later model item number 291665874995 has the hidden clasp and flat case back. I do not know which case back the automatic replicas will have but the models with the bulge are not as comfortable.

ST and Clark bezel kits are the same.

"Cartier santos mid size on a bracelet?" I owned a genuine quartz Cartier Santos quartz many years back and traded it away. About 10 years ago I wanted another one and bought a replica stainless steel quartz model that is super accurate to the genuine. The case back has 987901 over 27953 and has the modern style bracelet with a hidden clasp. It has screws in the bezel like genuine and all the screw heads are applied to the outside of the bracelet, not stamped. The watch would be hard to spot as a replica. The only thing I changed was to replace the Phillips head case back screws with slotted pan head screws like the genuine watch has. The movement is a Hattori (Seiko) and has been running reliably for 10 years with a few new batts. The main drawback is it has the 'knuckle link' bracelet exactly like genuine and they will not tolerate bending past where it develops resistance. The case is 30mm wide across 3 to 9 not counting the crown guards. My guess is they still make this exact same watch today.

"Are we part of a dying hobby?" It sure seems that way to me. No one I know outside watch trader/dealer circles seems to care about watches anymore. Most do not wear a watch and the rest have $25 junk or maybe a $100 quartz Seiko/Citizen at best. I have sold more $10 cheapo fashion watches and $20 Disney character watches in the past 5 years than everything else put together in the past 35 years...volume, not $$ value. Everyone knows what a rolex is but not many buy one because they cost so much. That's probably one reason why high grade replicas are popular...why spend $8k on a genuine watch when you can have all the glory for $350? After all, you get the same comments on a $350 watch as on a $8k watch from all the Gomers. If the world economy takes a dump you may see some of the high $$ swiss watch companies bite the dust while replicas of their products are still being made. The irony is pure gold.

Bulova and a few other brands used JB/C&I etc solid oval outer link/split inner link jubilee style bracelets that are very close to what rolex used on USA watches in the 1960s/early 1970s. Find some hoods and a clasp to complete it. Most are 18mm or 19mm but a 19 will look Ok on a watch with 20mm lug space as long as the hoods match the case and center links of the bracelet. The older bracelets with split center links will fit 2mm spring bars if you spread the center links a bit. The catch is most of them have disappeared. eBay item number 151940797561 has good pictures of a vintage jubilee to go by. Modern style jubilee bracelets are easy to find.

I have an MBW/MBK 'polex 5513' that I have had for about three years but do not know the actual age of the watch. I used a CWP crystal and it just did not suit me...the MBK crystal retainer bezel felt a bit too tight. I tried a few different combinations and ended up with a ST bezel assembly and GS crystal. The crystal was either a GS PA462-66 or GS PA462-67, do not remember which one...one is a hair bigger OD. It mounted easily and left about 1mm above the bezel. The optics are Ok but I am not very particular about this detail. Here is a list of what I used to make the watch: MBK case...TC case tube and crown...GS crystal...ST bezel kit with the matte finish polished away...ST bezel insert that came with the bezel kit...rolex 26 jewel 1520 hack ...1570/75 center wheel/canon pinion/hour wheel/calendar spacer...Yuki dial...ST hands...case screws with clamps...all gaskets from ST, case tube, case back, and under crystal retaining bezel. The case is unaltered except drilling the lug holes out to 1.3mm. As for why the 1570/75 date parts were used...read the MBK sticky above. Case clamps were used in place of rolex 'flying saucer' screws so I would not have to spin the movement/dial in the case so as not to damage the outer edge of the dial (it felt like it was going to be tight). I wore it quire a bit but it is apart now waiting on a new hack (second stop) spring. The tip of the hack spring broke off, fell into the guts, and jammed it up. After you mount a few rolex PA type crystals you can usually tell if it feels right when pressing the bezel down over the crystal. The MBK bezel and CWP crystal just did not feel like it would seat without maybe cracking the crystal. I have used CWP T19 crystals on other projects with no trouble at all. 'PA' is the GS designation for straight sidewall crystals and is commonly used in the trade and hobby. Most of this type crystal cracks because: The crystal OD is too big after being mounted on the case neck...the crystal ID is too small and cracks when pressed down over the case neck...the OD of the case neck is too big...the bezel is too small for the crystal...the bezel is not pressed straight down during installation. You can shine a bright light straight down on the crystal after installation and scope it out with a 10x loupe and usually see any cracks in the crystal side wall. If none are seen, wait a week or two and check again. After that, you are usually Ok but it is a good idea to look at the crystal every month or two. The MBK case neck OD where the crystal mounts is 28.2mm.

The picture on post 32... The side view of the case looks a whole lot like the IG44 case I bought from an RWG member a year or two ago...same 'canoe' shape. Mine has regular CG though. Also got a 1680 dial direct from IG44 but never put it all together.

"I have had good success with stainless cases using HSS bits and my drill press set to 600rpm." I had some 1.3mm HSS bits quickly get hot and dull at low speeds when cutting lug holes maybe because the cutting oil was too slick. (?) Now I use a new bit dry and change it when it starts to get dull, usually after 4 passes. Drill bits are cheaper than cases.

"Be carefull with Yuki 1680 case , bought one Try to use a gen insert dont fit Try to use a Gen tube and need to use a tap Try to contact Yuki and NO answer ..." A few years back Yuki was sending out 1680 cases with wrong case tube threads, glued in case tubes etc. A forum friend bought one but Yuki exchanged it and the next one was Ok. I bought 5512 and 5513 cases from Yuki a couple years ago and they were both good so I quit while I was ahead. I have always thought every high priced 'custom made' case was hit or miss and if you get a miss, wear them out until they make it right. After all, we are paying $600+ for $1 worth or metal and a few hours of machine work. My guess is many of the high priced cases are cheap common cases machined to closer specs with good engraving. I may stick my neck out and get one or two 5513 from Josh and see how they compare with my high priced cases. Going by the watch that 'jackflash' posted pictures of, there is not much difference. If this is true, Yuki 5513 cases can be skipped, especially for Eta projects. Josh 1680 cases may be good too. The catch is if Josh changes suppliers or the supplier changes designs and the case is not as good next time around. You do not usually see the cases get better with 'improvements'.

Might run across one on eBay, search for 'TAG Heuer parts'. Since the watch appears to be high mileage (very high), a better bracelet would be nice too. Sometimes you can find a non running watch like the one pictured for a low price because it costs so much to repair them thanks to T/H ripoff parts prices. If it was mine, I would remove the battery, throw it in a drawer, and remember it fondly.

"The phong case is 1250.00" Iirc a Yuki 1680 case is around $600/$650.

You can also find the crowns on eBay, item number 171641398405 I leave MBK cases as is except for drilling the lugs out to 1.3mm and maybe exchanging the crown and pearl dot. The watches are probably worth more unaltered...so no grinding/reshaping for me. Better letters and numbers between the lugs would be good and maybe blow some $$ on a case back with better lettering if the watch is a keeper (the catch is with new numbers/letters and case back you are close to or over Yuki case prices). You can also remove the bezels and install the O ring in the case top under the crystal retaining bezel if desired, none of the MBK cases I have came with the O ring but they have the groove. I have a few DW cases with good case back letters so can I swap them out but DW submariner case backs come in two sizes so you have to match them to the MBK case. The bottom line to all this you may be better off with a Yuki case and dial if you plan on extensive modifications to an MBK case using a genuine movement etc. My two Yuki cases (5512, 5513) do not have the groove under the crystal retaining bezel but the groove is easy to cut for anyone with a lathe. dbane said : "Gen 5513's, prior to the mid 70's, did not have the gasket channel in the mid case." so you would not want to go to the trouble of cutting the groove in a Yuki project 'made' before the mid 1970s. With an MBK case the gasket groove really does not matter because you can not see the gasket or groove when the watch is together and the shallow engravings between the lugs give them away as a replica anyway. Etc, etc...

"OK, so if I could only get one, which one should I get?" I agree with Umpa, the 1680 is a classic, maybe THE classic rolex submariner. I also like the simplicity of the 5512/13. The SD is great but not mainstream so it is not as popular. When it comes to modifying one (swapping Etas or going genuine) always remember the no date models are a LOT less trouble. Etas are quick set but you have the dwo hassles and all the 1530 base genuine movements are slow set and expen$ive. If I was buying one (or two) I would stick with a swisseta movement and maybe go with a slower beat 2846. With care and maintenance any of these watches should last 20+ years. The Golden Age of these classic watches was in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s but the Classic Appreciation Age of them is now. My guess is as the price of genuine examples keeps rising, more 'non purist' classic/vintage watch guys will turn to replicas and Frankensteins for every day wear. I guarantee there are quite a few Phong, Yuki, MBW/MBK etc higher grade vintage replicas being worn and never noticed as being replicas. Imho MBW/MBK watches are Classic Replicas.

ST still has new 2824 for $175, 2836 for $225, and 2846 for $189. They also have nos Zodiac signed 2878 for $129.

The few for sale may well be the last of the breed and the price is right so they will go pretty fast. I just wanted to say that they are a good buy 'as is' and the 1680/5513 case is a very close match (on the inside) to a genuine rolex 1680 except they are made for a 26.0mm dial. This info comes from the three examples I have (two 1680 and one 5513)...the 1680s are about three years old from MBK Center, actual age unknown on the 5513 but it is identical to the 1680 cases. If you leave the watch with an Eta and maybe go with a slower beat Eta 2846 etc, it is all smooth sailing. Otoh if you want to modify one for a genuine movement and genuine spec dial it would be good to know someone who can do the necessary case modifications. I am not going to buy one as I already have too many projects but I just wanted to say this is probably the last chance to snag one. Maybe someone could do a comparison of the MBK 5512/13 and latest model from Josh. This latest cartel watch may have the best affordable case for projects after the MBW/MBK watches are no longer available.

I called a USA supply house a year or so ago about a crown for a SMP and was quoted "somewhere around $60" but it was back ordered. The sales person told me this was not a good time to own an omega watch and soon going to be a whole lot worse. Looks like they were telling the truth. Notice Cousins said "Whilst stocks last". This does not sound good. The only omegas I have is an old tonneau shaped gold top constellation and a screw back dressy seamaster. It took me over a year to run down a little date flipper spring p/n 722-0563-1530 for one I was working on. I say thehellwith'em.

Pros and cons... Not too bad a buy at $2k imho as a 5512/13/1680 project will run about the same if you go with an Eta in a Phong case and high grade GMT projects are 'rare' compared to 5513 etc. Otoh a 5512/13 with Yuki case/dial and genuine 1520/1570 will also cost about $2000...but you will have to deal with an expen$ive rolex movement and all the ills that go with them. Example...I have a no hack 1575 date that loses time on some days and runs on time on others. Magnetized? No. Dirty and dry? No. Canon pinion slips? No. Balance staff rough or a cracked jewel? No. If it was an Eta I could just swap it out but being a cussed $rolex$ I need to fix it. It lost 20 minutes yesterday but is running on time today. On a timer it is within a few bps in all positions. The catch with GMT and 1655 projects with a genuine movement is you will probably spend a small fortune rounding up GMT parts and for this reason the 2893 is a very good choice...except for the 28800 beat rate and no one will notice except maybe a red and blue watch junkie. So...it still seems like a pretty good deal to me (considering current prices) and you can always sell it on the forum if and when you want to make a change. Free advice...please do not 'artificially age' the case because so many have been ruined in the attempt. Just wear it and stay out of rock piles and hammer mills. Dial types: https://rwg.cc/topic/149110-rolex-gmt-master-history-and-reference-pictoral-part-1

There was a microtor movement in some replicas about 15 or 18 years ago and this might be the same movement back from the dead. They did not wind very efficiently and had other unspecified problems so they did not stay around for long. Watchlover David offered them in some omega seamasters aka 'sea-nastiers' back then. I also saw them in a prototype Michael Kobold watch on TZ around this same time. A fairly well known watch guy who sold private label 'swiss made' watches tried to sell this same Asian made microtor movement in some of his watches calling the movement 'all new swiss made' but he got outed. I know the details but will not go into them publicly. Some of the saga was on the NAWCC website at the time. I have a few watches with microtors (Universal Geneve Polerouter, Hamilton Thin-O-Matic, Bulova Ambassador) and you need to be very active or do the Full Tilt Boogie a few times a day to keep them running. Hamilton used Buren microtor movements in their T-O-Matic and later bought Buren out to get the movement but they gave up on them and went to Eta a few years later. I have a Ham Thino on my desk and it does not look much like the one on Toro's website and neither does the Universal Geneve. Harley Ronda also made a microtor movement 25 or 30 years ago (Harley Ronda 2538) but it was rough as a cob and had a few gremlins. You might see one now and then in a cheapo brand. Here is the HR 2538: http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/c-watch/item/391968

Many watches similar to this are called 'train watches' and were not RR approved but looked like RR watches. Yours may or may not be one of them. I do not recognize the brand logo but someone on the forum might. Most RR approved watches will be 18 or 16 size, 21 jewels, adjusted, usually lever set (not pendant set), and have a serial numbered movement with all claims engraved...jewel count, adjustment etc. Most will be in yellow or white gold filled cases, a few in stainless steel, silver, German silver, Silveroid, or chrome plated.. very few in solid gold. Different RR companies had different requirements and some even accepted 17 jewel pendent set watches commonly known as 'transportation watches'. Open the watch up and see what type of movement it has. RR approved pocket watches such as BW Raymond (Elgin), Waltham Crescent Street, Hamilton 992 and 992B all have finely decorated movements, adjusted, lever set etc. On lever set PW you have to unscrew the bezel and pull a small lever out and set the time with the crown. The crown does not click in and out of setting position like a standard PW or wristwatch. I have one similar to yours and it is branded 'Baylor' (Zale Royal Jewelers USA), has a Unitas 6497 (now called Eta 6497) and was made in the early 1970s with a train engraved on the chrome plated case. It needs c/o now but ran within 10 or 12 seconds a day for years. I paid $39 for it new in 1974 in Bristol TN, USA. http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/how-to/case-material.php

I was aware of 'swiss fakes' of American pocket watches back in the 1960s because there were still a lot of them around back then and started seeing fake wristwatches for sale in the late 1960s/early 1970s when fake Bulovas started showing up with the name 'Bolivia' on the dials. They came in signed boxes with a 'warranty' card and had one jewel pin lever movements. The peddlers asked around $25 but if you offered $12 or $15 you would usually end up with one. From talking to guys at NAWCC watch shows it seems that fake wristwatches have been around about as long as the wristwatch itself. The oldest fake I have is a 'Seiko' in a 1970s style case with a 1 jewel pin lever movement. I have owned it probably 25 years and it still runs. The first fake rolex watches I saw were in the early 1980s...quartz DD in a plated case was about $12 and a submariner was $15. An Eta 2846 in a steel case was $75. Call a pager in NYC, tell 'Andy' what you wanted and they showed up in about a week COD. Still have one or two from back then. The bezels were pressed down into the case and sealed with an O ring, the MG crystal was in a regular plastic gasket. Still have a few Exp II with DG type movements with 24 hour hands from the early 1990s and they also have the pressed in bezels. Recently looked at a few swisseta 2836 SD and Exp II from River 15+ years ago, both with lug holes...the SD is not too bad and the Exp II is very good except the wrong hand stack and both have solid mid links. Still have a few 36mm swisseta 'AK' from 'Paul' back then and planned to make Exp I out of them but never did...the Exp I, Exp II, 1680, and 5514 COMEX dials were $10 each from Paul. Don't know why I kept this stuff...put them in a 'fake museum' maybe? The movements will probably be worth more than I paid for the watches...all new goldtone swissetas, not 'put togethers' like today.