kanerich

I didn't want to make it seem like the watch was riddled with problems, what with the bezel marker falling off and all, but yeah, the bezel on my 187 is misaligned too. Is there a fix? It seems to me that it would be tough unless there's some way to adjust the bezel insert within the bezel.

You're breaking my heart, Don Quixote. I wouldn't rely on you to find me snow in Alaska. And you assumptions about what people think are no different from mine, just assumptions.

Mine's the one where the bezel marker fell off. Yup, glued. Or at least until it wasn't.

Got my Pam 187 from EL. Allowing for the faulty bezel marker problem (one fell off in transit and was lost) that EL says he'll take care of, that doesn't affect my ability to assess the watch generally. It's a beast all right, and I'm glad to have it. I have to say though that having lived with it for this one day, I still consider the all-round Pam champ the 212. IMO it is simply the right combination of size, functions, retro chic, quality, and whatever else you look for in a Pam rep. I don't know if I'll wear the 187 that much instead of the 212, which gets the most wrist time of my now 7 pams (212, 187, 005, 118, 177, 196, 183) This is just my opinion and not a knock on the 187 rep in any way -- it is what it is. Assuming the bezel marker issues can be worked out (knock on wood) this is a fine piece of work. But I have to say that I think I prefer the clean, distinctive lines of the 183 and the 212, not to mention the classic 111, 005 et al.

You know if he really is like god and sends you to somewhere like hell you'll be sorry you said that. But seriously, I don't think ego-man really means to defend specific scammers, I think he just thinks everything is a kind of scam. I can picture him sitting in front of the TV watching commercials, shaking his head and saying while pointing as his temple (the universal "I am the smart" gesture from pro wrestling) "man, they make that product totally seem better than it really is, what a bunch of scammers just like replicacenter. Good thing I am so smart that I catch these things. Nobody is as smart as me, that's why I can claim to be like god without the slightest bit of irony."

I'll be holding my breath waiting for you to find the secret stash of $1500 NIB Pams for all of us. Seriously, why is this the forum to be asking where to get GEN watches for "dirt" cheap? What, you think we're all a bunch of pawn-shop fences or something?

Yup. I will say that I do prefer dealers not to use descriptors like "perfect" and 1:1 to simply indicate their rep is very, very good. Most people take stuff like that in context but I imagine there is the occasionally disillusioned customer.

It's hard to get luxury watches for "dirt cheap" unless you know someone who is desperate for cash. Such people do sell on ebay but most who say they are, are probably just looking for suckers to scam. For new watches, the discounts tend to be the same at places like ashford, jomashop and overstock -- at best around 40% for Omegas and Tags, 25% for Breitlings, marginal (maybe 5-10%) for Rolexes and Panerais. That seems fair to me but may not be "dirt cheap" to you. There are sellers of used watches like art of time and watchseller, although the prices there don't really impress me. Timezone and paneristi private sellers tend to have good prices and are less likely to be crooked than random people on ebay.

Nope just glued on. I can see the dried glue where the marker is missing. However, EL has already agreed to send me the part I need. Sucks to not be able to wear it now but it would suck a lot more if EL wasn't a class act . . .

Just got mine . . . unfortunately missing a bezel marker. Always disappointing to get a long-awaited rep with a defect that renders it unwearable. Other than the Asian 7750, one thing I was genuinely concerned about was how the chunky, glued-on bezel markers would hold up. You will recall it was a problem with the arktos. Well, I got my answer -- not even long enough to get to me in one piece. I assume Eddie will take care of it (just emailed him, haven't heard back yet) but it doesn't exactly promise long-term durability.

If nothing else is persuasive to he who is like God, I don't see how that isn't clear. Basically, you're saying anything short of outright theft constitutes acceptable business practice. Anyway, this talk about how Rolex, Panerai etc. do the "same thing" is misguided. First of all, premium brand goods don't purport that the value of the raw materials are commeasurate with the prices charged. That's what makes it a premium brand good. You pay extra for the prestige. That should not represent some kind of mystery to consumers. Second, this talk of how Rolexes are "overpriced" also misses the point. Being overpriced in the sense that there are people who question the inherent value of some good is very different from that good being overpriced in the sense that the prices being charged are actually more than the market will bear absent some kind of deception or manipulation. Gen Rolexes are luxury goods, of course lots of people will decide a Rolex not worth the cost. That's what makes it a luxury and not a commodity. But that doesn't mean it's a scam or price-manipulated in terms of fair market practices.

OK buddy, you've got it all figured out. I especially love the don't live in the EU and don't care "argument" . . . that and the completely tangential attacks on Japan certainly lay out your points in an intelligent, civil, objective way. I'm actually an American living in Japan, thanks for reminding me that I made the right choice. Anyway, your arguments aren't even internally consistent -- you say American big corporations can do anything they want. Then why wouldn't they be able to pressure the government to laws to protect their IP interests that cost them billions a year? Yeah, you've got all the answers.

Thanks for the reviews, I'm dying to get mine! It should be coming any day now, ordered it Wednesday . . . I'm not bothered by minor details on watches like the 212 or 187. Frankly, I don't mind admitting they're reps because it's so easy to say "there's no way I'd pay $8-10K for the real thing but this beast looked so f'n cool that I had to pick it up in Shanghai." IMO a Pam rep gets a much different response from a Rolex rep (paneristi excepted) because it simply doesn't offend people nearly much when you have a rep of a cool-looking watch that's relatively unknown.

If you google Pam or Rolex or whatever, I think 2/3rds of the hits are links to fake watches and often to this or other replica websites . . . so I doubt the wide availability of reps on the internet is a closely guarded secret. On the other hand, the devil's advocate in me says if this website is commonly known and WIS's regularly check it to compare gens, then isn't that all the more reason members of this board don't have to go out of their way to provide "education?" Which is it, they should know so it matters or they already know so it doesn't matter? It seems like the same people are saying both.

I had a TW classic (lug holes, solid midlinks) sub from River, which I've since given away. At the time it was sold as a TW best so I'm a bit confused there apparently are two different such watches now. The thing is the watch does look great as a watch qua watch and is very well made. But also it's pretty easy to tell it's fake. My TW best had solid middle links and was thus actually TOO heavy to be a gen Sub. The SEL's also do not match the gen and people who know what the gen three piece SEL's should look like will easily pick this out. Also, the anthill hour markers and too-light dial print (under certain light) that is characteristic of the TW sub are dead giveaways. That's assuming that the so-so pearl was replaced and the CG's cut down, which are otherwise also easy to spot. The TW is a quality piece and this is not intended as a criticism of the watch. But it's not going to fool anybody familiar with a gen sub. Only an amateur would think "this just seems too nice to be fake," a pro should be able to pick out the actual differences.

There have been a ton of posts on the subject, but buying yellow gold reps tends to be a crap shoot. First of all, gold alloy is not all the same mixture of alloys so there's no guarantee that rep gold will match gen gold from a particular manufacturer, even if the carat content is the same. But carat content is not the same, gen Rolexes have 18kt, almost all reps use 14kt. Also, plated gold wears and scratches off since it's only a few microns thick. Not a big problem for rep owners since most rotate numerous watches, but a few months of constant wear and it's not unusual for some areas of plating to get rubbed or scratched off on gold plated reps. Your friend might not appreciate that. I had a gen TT DJ and a rep of the same watch from abay -- it was not that close side by side. The rep DJ has a slightly weird, orangy quality to the gold, probably from bumping up copper content to try to replicate the look of 18kt. I sold it to a friend who wanted it for $50, I couldn't wear it. The watch itself was quite decent and SS DJ's from aspire are actually very accurate so it's not a rep problem, but a gold problem. It's pretty well known that DJ's/DD's have been repped since the stone age, and a lot of people wear them, both fake and gen. I've had my gen TT questioned just because people tend to see a gold datejust and assume it must be fake. This is annoying when the watch is gen, potentially embarrassing if the watch is in fact fake.

I don't know, it seems like prices have dropped quite a bit without a huge drop off in quality . . . I was paying $300 plus for Swiss Unitas Pams and $350 for Asian movement 196's just a year and a half ago, they're all down to under $250 with better finished movements, crowns, CG's, often under $200. So some of it just seems to be market forces at work. And a lot of the dealers, big and small, have lowered their prices . . . it's not just Paul. People who bought in China have reported that the same high end pams we pay $200 for can be bought for $75-100 at the source. I'm not saying dealers have been making more than a fair profit but clearly the margins were pretty comfy when the watches were going for $300 plus. Of course they don't like it if someone decides to play the lowball game, nobody likes having to work harder for less money. But I think it's pretty clear that if a dealer wants to sell large volumes at lower margins, he can do so without losing money or resorting to some kind of pyramid scheme, and I'm not sure what evidence there is that things are going to pot. If that was true this board would be flooded with complaints about their POS watches from aspire . . . it's not like people are shy about complaining on this board.

Yes, but the rest of the world with IP can't wait for China to decide to do the right thing. The EU is proposing legislation right now that will make any knowing importation of counterfeit goods a felony, and the US is in the process of enacting laws that will increase the civil and criminal liability of carriers -- that'll make DHL work a little harder to find out exactly what "birthday gift" Johnny Smith in Omaha is getting from Guangzhou. I'm not saying it will be complete or fast, but the web will tighten. Big business interests are simply losing too much money and face, and it's not about just watches. The Chinese are counterfeiting and selling stuff that's not so easy to laugh off, from pacemakers to credit cards.

Uh, these are just the various OEM rep straps being sold as a unit. The quality isn't that great. However, the package includes the 4 deployants shown, so it's far from a terrible deal for about $130 total. Frankly, I think any dealers can offer the same straps but probably don't think it's worth the effort.

I don't see anything about A/R so presume there isn't any Claims better lume that prev generation, that's always good. Promises 100m water resistance -- d'oh! Says "considering the price, the change in movement and case details we think represents an understandable tradeoff." What does that mean? I thought the last gen was Asian 7750, this is somehow worse?? I assume by case details he means the dummy date changer and he valve? Anything else a problem

If it makes you feel any better, apparently the wobbly stem is a problem in gen IWC's as well. http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg...d=24825#msg_348

It comes from the pro wrestling move "frankensteiner" which is a leg scissors into a forward roll. It's a very difficult move to perform, yet doesn't change the fact that pro wrestling is still fake. A frankenwatch is carefully put together to seem as real as possible, but is still fake. Just like the frankensteiner. And for the more dense folks in the crowd. Yes, I'm kidding.

I agree. To me Tom's post smacked of the most obvious mixed motives -- on the surface, educating WIS's, but a healthy undercurrent of "look how good reps are getting" gloating beneath it. And IMO that's something we as rep collectors want to avoid -- tweaking gen owners' noses just to show off. With stuff like the so-called ultimate sub and 4th gen PO that are much more likely to be used to scam people, what about the FA Jones urgently requires public disclosure? It's not like the FA Jones is the kind of watch the easily-scammed "gotta have a fancy watch to impress girls" crowd is interested in anyway. Pugwash, if you know the specific criminal code section to look up, I'd be interested in seeing exactly what it says. The legal journal article I read (prepared by a French attorney) indicated that a criminal intent was necessary to prosecute possession of counterfeits in France. I always enjoy learning a little more about the law.

I wouldn't mind seeing some better Tag reps, especially the Monaco and the new Aquagraph chrono.

Seiko has been selling expensive high end watches for decades with their Grand Seiko and Marinemaster lines. Who buys them? Well, GS is the third most popular luxury watch line in Japan after Rolex and Omega. "Discovering" that Seiko makes serious, high end watches is like "discovering" there's a place called Guangzhou in China that produces a lot of stuff. Glad you found out about it, but . . . a little late to the dance to be claiming to be the host. As far as the lack of prestige of the Seiko name goes, I imagine there are more people (especially outside of the US) aware that Seiko makes excellent high end watches as are aware of obscure prestige brands that are beloved by WIS's. The average schlub is not going to be impressed at all by an A. Lange and Sohne or Blancpain as he will never have heard of it. Something like a Glycine or Anonimo might as well be a Casio to people uninterested in watches.