kanerich

Again, that possibly explains the flattery, but without necessarily conferring sincerity. If you can't tell a GMT Master from a Sub I don't think you're ready to start picking out fakes from gens at any distance.

Let it go. Unfortunately, buying and selling illegal goods means taking the occasional loss. Don't go from a hobby criminal to a professional one by presenting false documents to customs. It's hard to see how that could possibly be a good idea.

"Red trim" on a sub? A sub shouldn't have red trim unless it's a super-rare vintage red sub and I'd be surprised if you could pick out the dial print from 15 feet away. So the red trim certainly sounds suspicious. As far as your other "dead giveaways" go though, as the others have pointed out they don't sound like dead giveaways. Real Rolexes have flat, glasslike crystals. The bands don't look particularly high quality. Most reps suffer from poor date mags, not overly powerful ones.

I'm an American who lives in Japan. I understand your misunderstanding but I like to think I understand things in the context of western culture as well, having spent 28 of my 32 years in the US. I don't really understand the "how much did you pay for it" question as a fishing method though. If someone I didn't know asked me what I paid for my Rolex, I would not think they were suspicious of its provenance, I would think they lacked manners or were angling to mug me. If a friend asked me I'd just assume he wanted to know if I got a good deal. Either way I don't see how that is supposed tactfully hint at the watch being a replica. You might as well ask me where I got it, that wouldn't mean much to me either. My experience in the West, grasshopper, is actually that it is MORE rude to ask people what their possessions cost them than is the case in Asia, where (again, in my personal experience) people are more blunt about asking what your house, car, shoes whatever are worth. My relatives on my wife's side even asked me how much I paid for her engagement ring. If it is common for Americans to pry in this manner I am thankful to say I have not kept such company. I must say that it is still my belief that you own a gen Rolex I think chances are good you would notice a rep oyster bracelet, it's pretty much the first thing I noticed as the gen is notably silkier and free of sharp edges, especially the clasp. It only looks as sharp-edged as the rep bracelet. But again that's just my opinion to so there's no real way of saying conclusively.

You may be right (we're both just speculating). Still, I assume you were not closely acquainted with those people on the cruise . . . I don't presume people in general are wearing fakes especially given certain contexts. However, if my brother in law, who I know makes less than $35,000 a year and doesn't save his money, suddenly showed up with a new LV at the next family reunion, I'd be more suspicious. I feel like there are also two major differences between your story and his -- the other person didn't bring up the subject of replicas. Saying "hey great watch," and "hey great watch, thought it might be a rep" are two pretty different things in my book. Also, you didn't let people handle your watch. Passing the sleeve test is a lot easier.

Yeah, I've also seen this article trotted out a bunch of times on both gen (like chronocentric, the "unbiased" Omega fansite) and rep forums to "prove" that Rolex are overpriced crap. Maybe that's true depending on the criteria and one's personal preferences, but lots of people like the more highly regarded John Holbrook, Jr. have questioned Odets' methods and motives. In any case, it's just Odets' opinion what a watch should or should not cost, since everybody knows the MSRP of a watch is not based on some formulaic markup of the production cost. This is beating a putrified horse. The "$600-800" figure is a bizarre one because 1) it's sort of a dead zone for watches that are not mainstream and not quite luxury, and thus I don't know what Odets sees as fairly priced competitors to the Exp I; and 2) any mainline luxury watch maker (Omega, Rolex, Cartier etc.) COULD sell their basic dress watches for that price if they wanted but don't because they don't have to, so it's not like Rolex is uniquely guilty of some transgression. Honestly, Omega and Cartier sell SS quartz watches for more than Odets' "$600-800" figure. So why would the Exp I be especially a lousy deal unless marked that far down? I smell bias. If you wanted to do this kind of "expose" of the obvious you could rip on a lot of luxury brands. The Zigmeister could easily write an article showing how the Pam 196 or Breitling Bentley are much more shameful ripoffs because they use the same ebauche as the $700 Hamilton X-Wind. But what does that really "prove"? People already know these watches use a commonly available movement and that watches cost what they cost, not what they are worth in some hypothetical perfect world.

My point is that often when people bring up something tactfully that didn't need to be said at all, that is their way of saying "I'm on to you." You knew what I meant, don't snipe unnecessarily. Although I realize that is what you do here.

You clearly missed my point. I stated quite plainly that Andrew acted with nothing but class so I have no idea what your first assertion is supposed to address. In any case, I am not referring to just this thread . . . I have seen numerous threads in the past two years where someone is accused of wrongdoing and some members feel the need to start talking like Judge Roy Bean, with no apparent purpose other than to show how badass they are. As if a replica watch website is the place to prove such things. It was especially bad on the old RWG where I recall threads involving alleged dishonesty or some such, and members talking about forming a posse to go over to the alleged offender's house and assault him or some such utter nonsense. At the least, members chime in about banning the person for life and how we need to "lay down the law" with bad apples. There is much bemoaning and hand-wringing about how the administrators aren't tough enough on troublemakers. Then the alleged offender apologizes or offers some semi-acceptable excuse and all the self-appointed tough guys melt away, presumably to return to pondering who has the best Sub. I have no doubt that airing out problems on the board helps resolve problems. That's why I participate in this and other threads. However, people shouldn't pile on to call for a head on a platter if they don't really want to see it and they should not be so quick to forgive and forget if the conduct really was bad. There is a word for this type of capricious follow-the-mob human behavior, but it is not yours, "normal." It is "childish."

Theo, I think you are doing precisely the right thing by posting on the board that while you are making no accusations, you want to know if anyone has information that might help you about what Angus might be up to. If this thing gets rolling into a big enough ball then Angus will almost certainly have to address it. I wish everyone would be patient and civil enough to deal with their problems like you, instead of alerting paypal if they don't get their watches the next day. Best of luck to you, I would be hopeful everything will work out OK.

Often when someone says "I thought your watch might be a rep" that is a tactful way of "I THINK this is a rep" and giving you the option of coming clean. I think you might have missed a hint. If he handled it, it is doubtful he didn't know it was fake. The sharp edges of a rep bracelet are a dead giveaway to anyone who has a gen.

People need to react more evenhandedly when we have these problems. It always starts with real tough talk about kicking ass and lifetime bans and then he apologizes and it's all good. I'm not saying it matters to me, it's the dealers' call as to how to deal with booster. But wild ranting and jumping to conclusions doesn't help anybody, neither does blowing it all off so easily. IMO more serious discourse, less mob mentality and jumping on and off the bandwagon would be nice. Kudos to Andrew who definitely acted with class from start to finish.

What is there to investigate? This person operates on ioffer, not here. You can access this site and steal photos and text without providing the slightest information about yourself and even if you figured out who it was what could the site do about it? Lock her out? How? What are Eddie and TTK going to do, sue this person for copyright infringement? Report her to ioffer for unethical business practices when ioffer is crawling with worse scammers? IMO sometimes [censored] happens and there's not a lot to be done about it. Hopefully people weren't fooled into thinking she was EL.

I get high quality reps I want at a reasonable price from an honest dealer who will even stand behind his products, and this is the transaction I can expect pretty much every time. This is a very unique scam all right. It's such a complicated scam that I don't think even the dealers understand how they're ripping us off.

If it's gen there's no issue -- you get the 183 since it's twice as much! Even if you want the Speedy you take the 183 sell it and pocket the difference The 183 is a LOT closer to gen than the moonwatch rep and I own both. I know the latter has its fans but wrong subdial placement, cheapy bezel and incorrect 6'clock hand function are all pretty significant flaws in my book. Especially considering it's a not that cheap rep of a not that expensive gen.

Nice smartass comments about Sprockett not knowing how to read a 24 hour hand when he makes it very clear in his initial post that the GMT hand is losing time. Maybe people should read what someone actually has to say before firing off the snidery. I seem to recall the PAM GMT watches commonly having this problem, something about the hand stack causing friction. The Zigmeister wrote about it extensively.

Lately I've been thinking about putting the next 12-18 months' rep budget into a gen and getting out of the rep game for a while. It's tons of fun but just takes up too much of my time and attention. My fault, obviously. I've been torn for some time between getting a nice diver, either the Seawolf or PO, or the Speedmaster Professional. However, recently I went down to the local watch dealer (not AD but a real nice guy who runs a mom and pop shop here) and he offered to sell me both a new SMP (black, not 007) and a new Speedy Auto (the little 36mm one) for 220000 Yen out the door. At the current favorable exchange rate that comes out to a little under $1900 for both, which I think we can all agree is a very good deal. So what would you do, get just the Seawolf/PO or Moonwatch, or compromise and get both the SMP and the Speedy Auto? Or buy 8-10 more reps??

#470 from EL.

I completely agree, don't see what the fuss over Shamalamadingdong is. Fine, he's "original." But that doesn't mean he's any good. I did like the Sixth Sense, I thought Unbreakable seemed to be going places but was disappointed. The Village was garbage, something that a first-year film student might have thought was clever.

Interesting enough I also just got my 187 . . . I originally got mine a month or so back but it had a bezel marker missing and so EL offered to swap for a new one. Well, it took some wrangling and time to finally get it on my wrist I'm happy to say that not only does this one have a full complement of markers, it also has a better pearl and . . . joy of joys -- the bezel properly lines up at the 12! Kudos to EL for taking care of things.

Breitling SuperOcean Oris Chronoris or Ti TT1 Regulator Omega SMP (whichever one you like) Omega Speedmaster Professional (can get new for $1900, negotiate the extra $400 -- it's worth it for a watch you can pass down to your kid)

I absolutely agree with you, just pitching in my two cents about the situation in China. My point is simply to further illustrate that we can't judge what mainland Chinese do in their own market as right and wrong, legal or illegal, by our legal or cultural standards. They just have different rules and concerns over there. Rolex makes the best Subs. Toyota also lost a trademark suit (a Chinese company used a very, very similar interconnected loop logo). Part of the reasoning of the decision? Again, Toyota wasn't really that well known so there was no harm even if the logos were similar. If frigging TOYOTA and CHEVY are too small fry to get trademark protection, it's hard to see exactly which companies can be comfortable with their IP in China. Asia is still behind the curve in a lot of ways . . . Korea basically was an IP anarchy well into the 1980's and even now, if you are a patent holder who is not exploiting the patent in Korea, you only get an injunction, no damages if someone steals it and makes a ton of money in Korea . . . you're not using it in our country, who gives a crap is the Korean government's attitude. At a consumer level, it's still relatively easy to get fakes in Korea but I don't recommend it, the prices aren't particularly good, nor is the quality. We're talking the $30-50 Faulexes for $150. If you want American movies for 3 bucks there's plenty of that. Japan is further along the curve, but more theoretically than practically. Personal IP piracy is rampant here, and software piracy is much higher than in western countries (around 80%, closer to China than the US or Western Europe). However, the government obviously has a lot more control over what the private sector does, so laws have been passed making service providers liable for domestic internet auction fraud and counterfeit trafficking which has really reduced openly illegal transactions compared to the recent past. A ton of IP laws have been passed and a specializes IP court instituted in 2005. But they have a ways to go before they become a society that understands IP . . . the University I attend has what is generally considered the best or second best law department in Japan, yet they do not have one IP law expert on the permanent faculty. Unthinkable in the US. Domestic sweatshops cranking out fake Rolexes might exist but I doubt it . . . it's a lot cheaper and easier to just smuggle them in from China and Korea considering the tighter government control and exorbitant cost of labor and materials. I do see fake clothes and bags from China pretty often (and not in back alley, respectable mom and pop shops), much more so actually than I did in the US which was surprising.

For a guy getting into the watch business you sure seem to rely heavily on other people for the where, what and how. Many existing gen sales websites do a good job of providing short summaries of the brands they sell. http://www.finestwatches.com/learn-brands.html http://www.orolus.com/

Regarding the various posts by Bill: I too have an IP law background and I don't argue with your interpretation of US law or the reality of the US market. You obviously know your stuff. However, as you rightly point out the reality of the Chinese market is quite different. This is a country that insisted Chevrolet hire Chinese executives and engineers in order to enter the market, and those people turned right around, started their own company and sold the IDENTICAL car (clearly stolen from tires up) as a "Chery." Chevrolet, as in the US is better known in Asia as "Chevy." The Chinese court ruled that the two names weren't that similar, Chevy wasn't all that well known a brand (in China) anyway, and that you really can't copy something as ubiquitous as a car. So Chevy lost on every count -- trademark, copyright, patent. In the US they probably would have had a slam dunk on all three plus won on unfair competition and trade secret theft. Not in China. In another case, a Chinese factory making fake LV and Gucci handbags was shut down by a Chinese court . . . and the factory and inventory were sold back to the owner in an "court auction" for the equivalent of about $70 if I recall correctly. It was never intended to be more than a fine, the rest was just a dog and pony show for Westerners. This is the country that has brands like "Hongda" and "Yamaha" (different kanji) that sell motorcycles that are plainly knockoffs of the real Honda and Yamaha. So while "Ralex" may not fly in the US, I assure you that in China, it very well might. The fact is that Chinese authorities and even judges are the opposite of American authorities. Many of them, especially outside the main cities, are LOOKING for pretextual differences not to bust their own people. So there is no reason to believe a spelling error here, a cosmetic error there makes no difference in China just because that's the law in the US. Go to China and you will realize that local law enforcement is about as genuinely interested in shutting down counterfeit production as Vegas casinos are in weeding out and banning people who can't control their gambling. Even the Hu Jintao has admitted that the problem in China is not the law on the books or the central government's repudiation of IP laws, but the corruption of government authorities at the ground level that makes enforcement a joke. Yes, that might also be a pretext in this country where pretext is everything, but take it for what you will. TRIPs, the Hague Convention and other international treaties notwithstanding (which are mostly just political anyway), IP law remains local and domestic outside Western Europe and the US. Even Japan is somewhat protectionist compared to the US or the EU. Ken, who you all know as the RXW (RoleXWatch, get it?) guy, sells watches 98% identical to Rolexes under his Rockx (gee, no similarity there) brand here in Japan. So while the law is what it is in the US, to Chinese businessmen the US Trademark, Copyright or Patent Acts matter about as much labor regulations, the Clean Air Act or the Anti-Discrimination Act.

The dial and hands don't look particularly close to the gen (looks like they were parts binned from a Chronomat rep), and the proportions of the bezel to the case looks off as well, although that may just be the photography. But hey, if you like it that's what counts.

I've got my gen in hand as I look at the pics . . . not sure why it's "definitely not a genuine bezel" as it looks pretty good to me. The crown looks a bit rougher than mine and something about the CG's and the bezel/end link fit doesn't seem quite right, but then mine is a later model with the SEL's from 2001, so it may be a manufacturing difference. I suppose it's possible this is a frankenwatch with a gen dial but I would believe it's the real deal. If this is a rep it's more perfect than any "perfect" Rolex I've seen offered by our dealers, that's all I can say.