TJGladeRaider

I think that example does not correlate to the rep industry. A better example would be, why $250K for a Ferrari if Guangzhou Motors is selling an almost identical car, offering almost identical performance for $15K- often with the exact same parts? Bill

Reps are in a constant state of revision. If you see a rep today with an obvious flaw, stand by, it will be revised. Reps stay in production so long as there is a market for them. Life's too short for pitiful reps - the good ones will come along, followed by ever better, although sometimes there are bumos in the road and the next gen is actually inferior to the last. Bill

Well I must say that I admire your strength and resilence, but if anyone else out there has one of these miserable MBW's, I'll relieve you of it . . . my generosity knows no bounds. I need another Rx or two. Bill

As some of you may know, and some probably do not, the USA took on Rolex and the Swiss cartels before many of you were born, the problem being their price control systems. Here is the latest development - February 2006. USA v Rolex - Show Cause Here is a commentary cut and pasted from another web site. Attention AWCI Members: Critical Spare Parts Issue Precedent Looms JIDA's position on the Consent Decree By Bill Nagle, President JIDA In the last issue of Horological times, the AWCI Board of Directors took a position not to support the continuation of the consent decree that Rolex seeks to dissolve. The AWCI Board of Directors fails to think through the ramifications of their action and its effect on the industry as a whole. This is the industry from which YOU derive a living and a future. It is critical that our voices be heard in Washington D.C. on this matter. Retaining the consent decree in total is unlikely, but key portions must be kept in place in the spirit of fairness that US laws are based. Removing the decree in its entirety would allow the luxury brands legal latitude to operate as they have for the past several decades. Rolex has agreed to pay $750,000.00 in order to settle with the United States Department of Justice. The final judgment prohibits certain defendants from imposing use restrictions on watch repairers. The United States charged that Swiss watch companies agreed to regulate the use, distribution, and pricing of watch repair parts. The primary harm that the Final Judgment sought to remedy was cartel behavior led by Swiss industry organizations. Contrary to the legal standards applicable to the termination of an antitrust final judgment with the consent of the United States, "The US has not offered a reasoned and reasonable explanation of why the termination vindicates the public interest in free and unfettered competition". The watch industry has changed due to technological advances during the last 40 years, altering the number of lower-priced units sold in the US. The volume and manufacturers of luxury watches has not significantly changed in terms of units sold. The defendants targeted by the consent decree deal primarily in the luxury watch market, with little or no participation in the low-end market. Therefore using the addition of quartz movements, Timex, Bulova, Seiko, and other low-priced alternatives, (given as a reason to change laws in place governing the luxury watch market), seems to be an incorrect application of the rule of reason in place of the per se rule. The dropping of the consent decree could put Rolex's revised policies in violation of certain Sherman Antitrust Act provisions. These provisions include vertical price restraints in regard to fixing minimum and maximum prices, non-vertical price restraints in regard to spare part resale restrictions, and tying contract violations in regard to the policy voiding warranties if generic parts are used. Material houses will be affected by the dropping of the consent decree, which will in turn have a direct impact on AWCI members' ability to make timely and profitable repairs in their businesses. One fact that may not have been recognized by the AWCI Board of Directors is the true financial history of Material houses compared to the luxury watch brands on AWCI. Did you know that during the past twenty-five years, various material houses (JIDA members) have purchased approximately 80% of the advertising in the Horological Times, which equates to well over $1,000,000. The manufactures/brands only recent contributions come no where close to matching that of the material houses past and present support. Is the AWCI Board of Directors protecting the group that truly pays the bills, or the prestigious brands for which they hope to be associated with? The original judgment has vertical restraints that the Department of Justice deemed necessary as a means of watch parts distribution in the 1960's. This was designed to keep the Swiss Cartel from restricting the flow of parts necessary for the watch repair trade to operate. The "Swiss Cartel", as it was known, may not exist today in name only. The common business practices of today's Swiss Watch Groups, who work together, produces the same result of the illegal Cartel from earlier decades. The companies may have changed their names to "Groups", but what was against the law in 1960 is still illegal today. If you have any questions regarding this important development, please contact your local watch material house. There is a sixty-day public comment period that expires on June 6, 2006. You can send your comments directly to: John R. Read, Chief, Litigation III Section, Antitrust Division, US Department of Justice, 325 7th Street, NW, Suite 300 Washington D.C. 20530 For further information regarding this pending action, If any of you feel like engaging in a little Rolex Activism, the phone numbers at the US Attorneys Office, and the names of the people handling this case are at the bottom of that pleading linked above. Tell them that the Swiss Cartels are indeed alive and florishing as evidenced by the ridiculous prices commanded by their products and the price control systems related thereto. Bill

Hi there -- not been buying a lot of reps have you? I bet you sent long e-mails - Ms. King doesn't speak English very well, and I think she sets longer e-mails aside until she has someone who can help her with them, but that's just a guess. You WILL get your watch, but always allow a few weeks with any rep from any dealer. Some consistently get them to you much faster, but always allow three weeks before getting concerned. Bill

PRECISELY my point. A gen manufacturer has all the advantages. They can buy parts at the best prices from legit sources in commercial quantities, and they can invest in tool/die equipment without worrying about raids or confiscation. They can advertise openly and distribute with no concerns and they can offer warranty and service that consumers can believe in - no matter who your rep dealer is, you cannot know for sure that he will be there in five years when your watch craps out. NOBODY buys a rep in preference to the gen - price being equal. Joshua Could use this as a catalog shot -- The watch in the middle is an Ollech & Wajs and I believe they manufacture that watch for Sinn as well. That watch, from the manufacturer, with the genuine Valjoux movement cost me a little more than $600 (I bought a dozen watches) which was the same money that people pay for a first quality Swiss Valjoux rep - and the rep costs more if you get it seviced. Street price for that watch is about $800 if you shop it. To me that watch, is the proof that the Swiss could beat the rep industry - who is ever going to rep that and try to compete? In other words, the Swiss cartels have a "rep problem" because the greedy bastards created it for themselves. If Uncle Rollie started selling subs at $1000 each, the rep industry would evaporate, but they cannot do that can they - that would be to admit that they screwed everyone they sold that watch to previously. I also have a box of gen Revue Thommens - same argument. First rate Swiss watches at a price that is a value for the dollar, as opposed to some smoke and mirrors marketing myth. If a watch man wants to sell me a watch, I expect value for my dollar, if they have other intentions, I have that handled - and she's better at it. Bill

Joshua had them - too much like a brick for me. Bill

First, if the aggrieved party files a PayPal complaint against the dealer, other than in cases of outright abuse, they are a common fookwit. Dealers should absorb certain losses, depending on the watch. If I buy a solid gold Casablanca, I expect to be treated different than if I buy a 99 Rolex. I don't see rules and guidelines as being plausible - just common sense fairness. My Dealers seem to have no trouble with that concept. As for private sales, if it works on arrival it's yours - if not, it's theirs. Bill

Oooooooooh, I have that coming from Joshua with a functional swan neck. The wifey It would not be good to have any undue attention though, my little Latina wifey has no sense of humor and carries a knife. ; ) Bill

If you can buy that Gen for $2K, I wonder how cheap the valjoux rep will be. Bill

I really couldn't say - and I am not sure anyone could until they have seen these new watches Joshua has sourced. They are very, very different than what he and King have offered before. I promise you I could tell the difference in the dark between these and the other subs/sd's I've got -- just unscrew and rescrew the crown a couple of times. It's like butter. Turning the bezel also has an entirely different feel. While the MBWs may make a great platform for mods, they say "POLEX" between the lugs, and I cannot say I am all that impressed by that. Bill

I have two of those - I also have the new SD with movement service package as I mentioned above. There isn't much delay, and the difference in the watch is worth it in my view. People pay that same money for the WMs and MBWs - and who has ever heard anyone say they sent Joshua money and didn't get the watch? Be sure and report back. Bill

Thank you Miss Understood, but the word "lovely" t'would be better applied to your countenace and classic coiffure. Bill

Could he be a shill? Can this be linked to any particular seller, or group of sellers? Bill

Thank you. To me, this whole issue is a curious dynamic because it is one of the few legal/moral issues I ever encountered that I found difficult to resolve. I think Guangzhou Watchworks has done the world a great favor, by demonstrating that "The Emporer Has No Clothes." Were it not for the fact that they produce a Pam with the same specs and same movement as the gens, Panerai might well be able to persuade people that there was an inherent value in their product that simply isn't there. I most definitely do not agree with the notion of counterfeiting via theft, or based upon cheap labor, or as a way to perpetrate fraud. To steal a digital master tape and then sell copies is theft, making Reeboks cheap by using kids in sweatshops is no more a "fair competition" than what the Swiss do, and passing off a fake as genuine to an innocent buyer is fraud. This, to me, is a far different thing. Bill

Maybe that's just something he offers those who buy in volume - I don't know. Basically, it includes a complete tear down and service of the movement, waterpoofing and timing. Some of these reps with swiss eta are using movements that have been lying around a long time. I can't see spending the money on best quality reps w/o paying to have them properly serviced from the git-go. Bill

I have that SD in my hand - just wait til you see that thing! Did you get his "service package" with it? I liked it so well I have more coming. Awesome. Bill

Just wait . . . I am going to have MORE. BTW, since you know these gen mans must monitor these boards, would that qualify as a "[censored] slappin." LOL Bill

I must say that it has been interesting to see all the statements regarding my assertion that a pressure test to 4ATM is the equivalent of 132 feet. It's pretty clear that there are few divers/pilots among us. I especially liked the one about the jello pudding . . . LOL If you're interested, I'll explain it - if you disagree with my explanation, please go here: Advice or, if that doesn't work: http://www.oracleinternational.com/advice/ One ATM is defined as a unit of pressure equal to the air pressure at sea level. It equals the amount of pressure that will support a column of mercury 760 millimeters high at 0 degrees Celsius under standard gravity, or 14.7 pounds per square inch (1.01325 × 105 pascals). As you go deeper under water (salt water), pressure increases at a rate of 14.7 pounds per sq inch (or 1 ATM) every 33 feet. It is different in fresh water (34 ft) and it would be a hell of a lot different in Jello Pudding. I must acknowledge that the guy who said that pressure testing to 4ATM should have been 99 feet. That is in error only because I was not clear and he would not have been misled had I explained things a little better - specifically, pressure testers are set up such that the scale begins at zero, as opposed to one, so when you add 4ATM, you are subjecting the watch to the equivalent of a 5ATM depth. Here is the relevant table. http://www.online.uillinois.edu/oakley/nitrox.html I hope that clears up any confusion. Bill

I read all the replies, but my perspective is a little different. Thirty years ago, I could have bought a Rolex Sub in the Navy Exchange (store for US military) for about three times the price of a Seiko diver. Now, you can no longer buy them them in the Navy Exchange, because Rolex isn't going to let anyone buy their precious $500 watch for less than $4000. In this Country, we have a federal law called the Sherman Anti-Trust Act which forbids artificial price controls that serve to raise consumer prices. For example, suppose Admin, Randy, Joe, Joshua and I own the five realestate companies serving SW Florida so we get together over coffee and decide that 6% sales commission is reasonable and we agree not to compete with one another - ladies and gentlemen, that is a crime, and I am describing a well known federal case where that is exactly what happened. The concept is simple - market controls and predatory pricing strategies that serve to screw the consumer are unlawful. I make good money, I own an expensive home, some expensive vehicles, and an offshore power boat; I can afford most of the things that I might want and I could afford a real Rolex if I chose to buy one. I do not. Instead, I have a pretty nice collection of counterfeits, and some gens that offer a good value that I am fond of as well. I have probably invested somewhere between $15-20,000 USD in my collection. I make no effort to pass my reps off as gens - quite the opposite, my friends all know they are reps, and they know that I buy reps more as a social statement than anything else. Personally, I hope that Guangzhou Watchworks puts these arrogant Swiss bastards in the position where they have to choose between going out of business, and selling their product for what it is worth. Unless the Swiss have the political clout to get them shut down, I believe that to be inevitable. I do have some gens. I have a box of Revue Thommens, several Ollech and Wajs including their MIII Mirage, the Seiko 5 40th Anniversary Titanium Diver, etc. - watches that sell for what they are reasonably worth on an open, competitive market. In sum, the only reason that rep mans exist is because the gens they rep are an exercise in predatory price controls. Just my .02 Bill

Oh no - I am terribly sorry to hear that you got one of those sad pieces of junk. The quality of reps these days! Who can you trust? Tell you what, send it to me, and try again. I'll give you what you paid for it. Am I a helpful kind of guy or what? Bill

The logo is applied and it is a beautiful ETA movement with no plastic spacer. Her watch is outstanding . . . I only bought five. Bill

Wait til you see it with real Valjoux 7750 LOL Bill

First, a couple of misconceptions. Testing a watch in a glass of water isn't much of a test - you need a pressure tester. There is absolutely no reason to take any steps to protect the movement if you use a pressure tester because of the way it works. Put it in tester, pump up pressure If the watch is not aitright, this will pump air (not water) into the watch Then crack valve so pressure drops SLOWLY As pressure is SLOWLY dropping, submerge watch Watch for bubbles -None None None None If you see bubbles rushing out of the watch, pull it out of the water while pressure is decreasing. No water can get in while bubbles are blowing out. The Pams I tested have been perfectly watertight to 4ATM - 132FT Enjoy Bill

Lord - Josh must be doing very well indeed, I just bought this from him for my Mother. It will go nicely with her: Chanel J-12 Cartier Tank Burberry LOL Bill PS: Nothing but gens for my wife - that's all I need!