panerai153

Alex, It may be more of a "cannot get the watch" rather than "Cannot afford the watch" Raising prices 20% will have some effect, but a more chilling effect would be no dealers, or dealers with no product. It will be a totally different hobby if the only watches available are from small workshops like the Ming Quy in Vietnam . They produce very high end reps, but at a stiff price. Prices like they charge for reps, 1-6K would probably eliminate 80-90 % of the buyers of rep watches.

I think one thing that has come back to haunt the Swiss watch industry is the very lax 50% rule, which has allowed them to outsource a whole lot of the parts. Guess who is making most of these parts? I bet it isn't Portugal or Slovakia, it's China. If you outsource parts manufacture to other countries, essentially what you are doing is exporting your technology. Lets say Rolex decides to have the Tudor cases made in China, they send the CAD/CAM specs to the plant in China and they build the cases. Who's to know whether or not the plant owner isn't producing another couple of thousand cases to sell to a rep manufacturer? In some respects the Luxury brands in their unrelenting quest to increase the bottom line have created their own monster. They let the Genie out the bottle, and now they want the Chinese government to stuff her back in!! Interestingly in 2007 the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH) tried to rewrite the rules upping the value of Swiss made parts and assembly requirements to 80% of the value of the watches. Obviously that rule has been opposed by the manufacturers because it's now 5 years later, and the 50% rule is still in effect. Going to 80% would cut out a tremendous amounrt of outsourcing, but it would cut profits as well. This may have little to do with the current crackdown, but it is part of the whole situation. The 50% Rule for Swiss Made watches Use of the Swiss Made label for watches is covered by an ordinance of the Federal Council dated 29 December 1971. The Swiss standard is often pejoratively referred to as the 50% Rule. However, it has its basis in real life economics. Again, the law merely sets forth a minimum standard. The famous or infamous Swiss Made Ordinance has, for a number of years, been subject to many criticisms, particularly inside the industry, because it is considered too lax, but also in legal circles, where the view is that it no longer fully meets the legal mandate specified in the companion law on trademarks (SR 232.11). In 2007, the FH plans to seek political action on a proposal which introduces a new aspect to the definition of Swiss made, in the form of a value criterion. Accordingly, any mechanical watch in which at least 80% of the production cost is attributable to operations carried out in Switzerland would be considered as a mechanical Swiss watch. For other watches, particularly electronic watches, this rate would be 60%. Technical construction and prototype development would moreover need to be carried out in Switzerland. Raw materials, precious stones and the battery would be excluded from the production cost. The Swiss movement in the existing ordinance already has a value criterion, namely the rate of 50%. Considering that here, too, the definition needs reinforcing, the draft amends these value criteria. For mechanical movements therefore, the rate would be at least 80% of the value of all constituent parts. For other movements, particularly electronic movements, this rate would be 60%. Technical construction and prototype development in Switzerland would also be a requirement in this case. The draft also stipulates other provisions concerning the definition of Swiss constituent parts and assembly in Switzerland.

You are correct, but what you have here is a virtual police state. the party allows capitalism to flourish as long as it's within their parameters. They have the power to shut down any business they desire. I believe as watchmeister said, maybe they have gotten a little too big and too bold for their own good. Maybe they have adopted the same philosophy as the banks here in the USA, "too big to fail" I doubt that that philosophy will fly in China! Factory owners driving Ferrari's, sending their kids to school in Switzerland, moving money out the country, all is being scrutinized by the authorities. And then along comes a bunch of really high profile companies screaming bloody murder that the Chinese Counterfeiting industry is costing them millions of dollars in lost sales per year, and OH, by the way didn't you guys lobby for years to get accepted into the WTO, and Oh by the way did you read the rules before you signed the documents? Big section about copyright infringement ,intellectual properties, etc,etc. Maybe you folks need to start looking at the rules and enforcing them. Lets face it most of the luxury brand are still high volume middle to somewhat high priced items. Rolex builds between 800,000 and 900,000 watches per year. I'm sure Omega is near that along with a few other mid range companies. That's a lot of 3-10K watches to sell every year. Cut the sales by 10% and they are looking at a significant downturn in revenue. The big question that will never be answered is just how much does replica sales hurt the luxury brands? It's impossible to tell how many Hermes Bags were not sold because women found a replica that was 99% as good for 20 % of the cost. How many Rolex Subs were not sold because folks were able to find a rep that was 98% as good for 5% of the cost.Although that number is an unknown, obviously the luxury brands think that it's significant enough that they are pulling out all the stops to shut the replica trade down. As someone else said above, as long as the rep watch trade was cheap knock offs that tourist bought and wore on vacation then either stuffed them in their sock drawer, gave then to their nephew or tossed them out, the makers of luxury brands were not too concerned. the replicas were so awful that the average person could tell that the gold plated Rolex with the gold wearing off was a fake or the quartz Rolex Day/Date. Let the idiot tourist buy a fake for vacation wear, they would never dream of taking the watch home and wearing it around friends. But today, the reps are incredibly accurate. A couple of years ago, there was a scam going on in Florida, really good looking girl goes into a Rolex dealer, charms the sales person into buying her almost brand new DSSD, it was her boyfriends and he left her , or she lost her job and needed some seed money to start another one, just use your imagination, lots of very good plausible stories out there, and if it's a really hot 25-30 year old in a really nice dress,jewelry, etc. Some guys going to fall for it. She gets the money, by the time they discover the watch is a rep, she's long gone. this was on the Rolex forum a couple of years ago, supposedly the scam was pulled at several very reputable jewelers around South Florida. So the point is the reps are getting dangerously close 1:1, including the Rolex movements. I will tell you, when the watch and movements are so close to genuine that a Rolex watchmaker has a very difficult time telling them apart, it will be open season on Rolex. That is one of the reasons I believe that the luxury brands are being so aggressive. This is a preemptive strike, before the reps get any better.

Very nice photos. Managing the light is much more important than what type of camera you use (within reason). Keep up the good work

No doubt this will become a question of supply and demand. If the factories are forced to go back to what they were 10 years ago, that is workshops with 20-50 people working, rather than 200-500, the supply will naturally shrink, and the prices will go up. I've got all the reps I need right now and for the foreseeable future. i am more inclined to buy watches from the sales forum anyway. First off you don't have any shipping risk, especially if shipping within the CONUS or from one EU country to another. If you are dealing with a reputable member and the watch isn't as described, you have some recourse, and finally lots of the watches for sale have been modded to some degree, and priced lower that you could buy a new watch and have the mods done yourself.

I'm not sure about the future, even though we know that it's a big big business. I think I understand our version of capitalism, but I'm not at all sure that I understand the Communist version. Here if a company cheats or screws up, the company gets a little fine, a slap on the wrist, and the CEO gets a multi million dollar "Golden Parachute" in China on the other hand, the company gets fined, but the CEO if lucky gets to spend a lot of years in prison, or if not so lucky, a bullet in the head. What worries me is the Chinese government wanting to comply with all the Western rules like the WTO requires, decides that in the best interest of the government, replicas, fakes and counterfeits will not exist. If they make that decision, believe me in a police state like China, they have the means and the will to make it happen. If a few factory owners, dealers ,etc are sentenced to long jail terms or executed,I would bet that the josh's,Andrews, etc will rapidly find another profession.

What are the best options for a bracelet/endlinks for a 6542. the only thing I have at the present time is the one that came on a puretime 6542. I've been told it's not very accurate. I know yuki sells the rivet bracelet as well. Any other options, outside of genuiune? Also will any of the above allow for genuine springbars? Thanks

Wonderful Vintage Reps out there, unfortunately, all will require some degree of "massaging" to achive greatness. the 6542 is my favorite of all Rolex vintage. Again there is nothing out there that even remotely approaches the real thing, unless you plan to spend 4.5-5.5k for a 6542 from phong or Ming Quy. Otherwise you will have to build one from scratch. Pretty good "starting point" 1665's and 1680's are out there.

That may be true, it's not exactly correct, but it's something that is probably not very noticable to anyone but those of us who are fanatics. The problem with the other cases is the lack of compatibility with genuine or even afternarket parts. I had the same problem with a 6538 build using one of the cheap watches as a base, nothing worked! Couldn't even install a proper big crown because the crown tube was so much bigger, there wasn't enough depth to the case to drill out and retap the hole for the crown tube. The Zigmeister tried, but couldn't make it work. Same with the puretime case for the 6542, just too many things wrong. I realize that if you want to build a really dead accurate (or as dead accurate as we can make them) watch, probably the only way to go is a phong case or Ming Quy or possibly yuki or natalie, but they are 2X-3X more expensive just for the case set. just depemds on how you want to go.

you will never be satisfied with anything but the MBW case. You can buy an MBW, and add parts as you get the funds.You can use a 2846 slow beat, or go all the way and put a genuine 1570 Rolex movement in the watch.There are really good aftermarket dials out there as well. So you can spend 700.00 USD and have a really nice 1665, or you can go all out and spend 3500.00 USD and have a really,really nice watch with lots of genuine parts. If you start out with anything other than MBW, phong,yuki, Ming, etc. you will hit lots of dead ends trying to adapt genuine parts to work.If you want the base for a believable 1665, get a MBW

The only thing around when i was born was the hourglass! Seriously though, the example i would love to have would be either the Rolex 4062 chrono or the 3835 chrono in Yellow Gold of course.

Thanks for the help. Since I already have a genuine crystal, I'll certainly do that swap. AFA the movement service, I think that it's money well spent if you intend to keep a watch.

I'm trying to find out what Crown/tube is correct for the GMTIIC? How close is the rep crown, and would it be a worthwhile investment to change the crown/tube? i just got in a very nice GMTIIC, and I'm planning to replace the crystal with a genuine, get the movement serviced and possibly have the dial/hands superlumed. This watch is supposed to have a superlumed dila/hands, but I'm not really impressed with hte lume.

before you lay out the cash for the SwissETA, iwould want some assurances that it really is a Swiss movement. Since Swatch started choking off the supplyy of ETA movements, it's getting harder and harder to get quantities of ETA movements. also the prices are much higher. It's pretty hard to see them putting a Swiss ETA in a 300.00 USD watch today. It could be genuine, but I would be a little skeptical.

16750 are all acrylic inserts. If it's a 16750 all the inserts from 1675 forward that are designed for acrylic bezels will fit.

It's a lot of cash, but it's your cash, to do with what you want. The only problem with investing that much money in a Franken, and as you said, only the crystal,crown and tube are genuine, so I don't know that this would even qualify as a franken? In my estimation it would qualify as a very, very accurate rep. The biggest consideration here, and it's something i mention in every response to folks who want to spend a pile of cash on a super rep. What do you do when at some point in time you fall out of love with one of these super expensive reps. or suddenly you need cash; lost job, illness,new house, etc. The pool of available buyers for reps like this are very very small. You will get a hundred responses to your sales ad, "Beautiful watch GLWS, Wish i had the funds GLWS" etc,etc. But, not many offers to buy. Another problem here, even if you were to break it up for parts, you only have a Crystal,crown and tube that are genuine, the movement isn't, dial isn't, the case isn't. Were me, i wouldn't but them, I'm not a big Daytona fan, so all I have is and opinion based on a a fair number of years looking at sales posts on these forums, and trying to sell watches, genuine and rep on various sales forums.

Who knows, probably the same email I got 3 weeks ago! Interesting as to why it takes so long, unless they are coming in a container with a lot of other things.I suppose they wil get them when they get them. You might try sources outside the US, possibly Cousins UK?

I ordered one from Ofrei about 3 weeks ago, they said it was backordered for 4-6 weeks, so possibly they will be coming in in the next few weeks. I also tried Jules Borel, but they told me that i had to have a parts account. The Email from them said that they were wholesale only. Right off hand, I don't know who else to try.If you find another source please post it.

Water resistance in reps is pretty hit or miss. you might have a rep submariner that is water resistant to +100 Feet, the next one from the same factory, same model, fails a 3Atm. Water test. For peace of mind, I would test every watch iintended to get wet.Lots of watchmakers have water resistance testers. unfortunately, most are only able to go up to around 3-6 Atm. Not enough to take scuba diving, but good enough for imersion in the sink, or swimming in a shallow pool! I would be happy to use nanug or teejays method, but I don't have the tools to take the watch apart if it floods. Another caution, if your watch floods in fresh water, it may be salvagable. If it floods in Salt water, unless you are really fast and really lucky,it wil probably be too late.W

Sort of off subject but someone brought up the question about movements. AFAIK, the supply of Swiss ETA movements is drying up very fast. Swatch group owns ETA. Several yearsago, they filed notice with the appropriate Swiss Watch Governing authority that they were going to stop supplying movements to all watch builders outside the Swatch group. They were not alowed to do that at the time, as several manufacturers protested that they needed time to find another source for movements. I believe that Swatch is now choking off the supply. Several USA watchmakers have said on their watch forums that ETA movements are getting almost impossible to get. Most of them were farsighted enough to purchase a large supply of movements when this first started. Howrver, at some point in time they will be out of ETA's and will then have to substitute other brand movements. Another thing I've noticed, the price of movements has gone up quite a bit. I was looking at a website the other day, and the prices were a lot higher than a couple of years ago. I was seeing prices of ETA movements such as 2824 and 2836 at close to 200 USD each. Of course that's far more than the wholesale price, but the prices overall have risen. The point I'm trying to make is don't believe for a minute that the movement in your rep is a "real" Swiss ETA. I would bet that all the newer watches coming into the pipeline have Chinese clone ETA movements, nothing wrong with that necressarily, but I wouldn't pay and extra 100 USD for a Swiss movement. Better to buy the cheapest movement avaiilable, and should it fail, transplant in a known ETA or another cheap movement. This really has nothing to do with the future of the Chinese rep industry, except to add one more little problem to all the big ones they already have.

I'm not buying anything from anybody right now, soIi really don't have a "dog in this fight". I do think that business will return, however it maybe that the "factories" will have to adopt a much lower profile. As Watchmeister said, the big factories are harder to hide, and much more difficult to move around. I'm sure all of the luxury brands have had enough. If the rep trade, in watches, handbags shoes, clothing etc. is affecting their bottom line, they will react. I seemed to have read somewhere that the major brands were selling lots of the top end watches, but the mid range brands were being hurt by the recession. It's probably not a coincidence that the mid range watches are the ones that are the most replicated, The Rolexes, Omegas, etc. Lots of folks can pull off a nice Rolex or Omega, or comparable brand rep, whereas they would feel uncomfortable with a rep of a 60k complication. The luxury brands factor in the cost of stamping out reps as a cost of doing business, just like they invest in advertising. What probably really sets them off is to spend a small fortune introducing a new model, and almost before the ink dries on the ads, the rep factories are producing amazingly accurate reps at 5-10% of the cost of the genuine! Every time Rolex sponsors an event like Wimbledon or the Americas Cup, it is selling reps to a lot of folks as well, trust me, they don't like that. It's a very real possibility that the Chinese authorities are caught between the proverbial "Rock and a hard place" On one hand if their economy is really cooling, the last thing they want is to have lots of unhappy folks out of work, which would happen if the rep business in it's entirety is shut down. On the other hand, turning a blind eye to the problem is a massive problem. They have very influential business folks asking some hard and embarrassing questions. China is a member of the WTO. under the mandate of the WTO I believe that they had to sign some pretty binding agreements that include strong anti-counterfeiting rules. So what will happen? no one knows. They could continue the raids, closing factories and arresting managers and owners and sending them to jail. At some point in time, the risk of doing business, at least on a large scale will outweigh the profit potential, and the factories will close and stay closed. If that happens, the flow of reps will slow to a trickle, as the businesses will be forced underground and will operate as much smaller entities. On the other hand, after the Chinese "elections" this fall when a new president and politburo will be chosen (appointed), business could return to what we consider the normal of the past few years. The future of reps of all types could very well be determined by the direction that the new Chinese administration takes.

That is a beautiful watch. it's amazing what you can do!! i'm a GMT freak, and that is one of the nicest 1675 builds I have seen. Very lucky owner. Hard to tell with my old eyes, are you using a 6mm crown for these are is that a 5.3mm?

Freddy is correct. Ther have been some discussionbs over on the VRF that have gotten pretty heated, to say the least. One paragraph ,sometimes one sentence from Rolex SA would put every one of these arguments to rest, but unfortunately, Rolex will not comment. Until someone comes up with irrefutible evidence that these were real, and that the PanAm story is true, the saga of the White dial will be open to speculation. It is strange that someone, a widow, child of a a PanAm executive,or even someone who worked for panAm during that era hasn't come forward with some sort of documentation that these were actually real and were indeed distributed to executives of PanAm. Time is running short however, the folks who actually worked for PanAm during this time, and would have been senior enough to have been working in the executive offices of PAnAM would probably be in their late 70's or 80's. I read somewhere that all the remaining records of PanAm are archived in the library at the University of Florida. Possibly someone who has a lot of free time on their hands and lives around Gainsville, will go through the archives and attempt to find any records of the purchase of the watches.

When did Rolex start putting the serial # on the clasp? Also wrong box, no papers on a fairly newer model watch?, Not up to speed on Datejusts but I would be really suspicious of this one. Ended at 3900.00 USD. Helluva profit on a 250.00 USD rep!

The dial in the first image looks exactly the same as my 16750. It's hard for me to tell from a straight on view if the crystal is acrylic or sapphire.