thewightstuff

significantly more than the value of a rep SRSD good luck with the build. looking forward to seeing some pics and thoughts

What year is your 5513 though. It was mentioned above that a 78 sub had the notch. No 60s or early 70s case i have seen has had it and my two dont so i wonder when it was introduced.

is anyone elses spideysenses tingling with this thing. it doesnt seem right to me

alligoat, you can see in the batch of pics above that the CGs dont have the droop, the first pic shows it clearly but also so does the upside down ones. my 5512 and 5513 are both from 67 and 66 respectively and droop also. i dont have the skeet and ural book at hand but be wary of believing everything you read in there. its full of errors or less than clear explantations amongst the vintages for sure. ive only ever seen two types of 5512 CG. the early ones with the pointed (diamond) shape CGs and then the later ones which were curved and remained for the rest of the line. these were introduced when the 5513 and 5512 began using the same case around 1965. if anyone wasnt sure about the case, just look at the placement of the crown within the CGs when viewed dead on. the CGs curve more in across the top than the bottom. classic sign of a rep case where the hole for the stem is placed off centre. gens are centre and the curve of the CG follows the crown in under the bottom and not the top. my gen sub cases dont have that notch either inside the case. maybe it was incorporated later on however but ive not seen it inside any gens ive looked in. it sure makes install/removal of the movement easier though. on the rolex you need to rotate it round quite a bit to free each case screw.

im going to say rep. the dial finish on the actual face doesnt strike me as being quite right, theres issues i see at first glance with the font on the dialk writing, the bezel font isnt quite right and the case doesnt hit home for me either. all this may be wrong ofcourse but it would be more than enough to make me call it as a rep or walk away from a purchase. often with reps when they get good, i find there a sum of tiny inconsistencies that give you an immediate feeling that its wrong. although the actual issues can be troublesome to single out or you can convince yourself that you are reading more into them and begin second guessing yourself this initial feeling almost always proves to have been correct

this may hold alot more water than you would think. best thing i ever did was invest in a quality screw driver set. ive got a bergeon set for working inside the watches and a very expensive screwdriver with a myriad of replaceable heads, all in small sizes only and types including torx etc. youd be surprised the ease with which things like these can be undone that before would have resulted in stripped threads, bent screwdriver tips and knackered screw heads. while it may not solve your problem, id look at what screw driver you are using and how well it fits the slot. it should fit perfectly, all the way down with no slack whatsoever anywhere while also matching the length of the screw head too.

you know what....f$*k me. thats beautiful. you should be very proud of your work. the owner should be very happy...and the rest of us can just continue to look on with envy. absolutely amazing. if my arms were longer id give you a hug for that one

should be fun, remember to try to get gilt hands though. what movement is that 1520 or 1530? i know what timezone said about this dial but im still sticking to it being redone in some way. ive got one almost the same somewhere but with SCOC text and its redone for sure. its pretty irrelevant though in the grand scheme and timezone is less factual and more opinions expressed as such too large a percentage of the time for me. id personally tidy up the airking and keep it

i meant across dealer sites but thanks for your comments. alteast they added to the thread and werent caustic for no reason whatsoever. the irony of your yellow emblazoned VIP status and eunomians lack of the same despite his civility and post quality did almost make up for it though.....

predfan, ive got a couple of those ones at home and they really do need more than just a pearl and the CGs worked sadly. as for the modern versions, im not really up to date on them im afraid. ive not much interest in the moderns and have never owned one so cant add much as to whats accurate or not. theres a ton of people though who can thats for sure and jetsons started it as i see above

ive seen this version before with the puzzling gold hallmarks inside the stainless steel case but cant think where. unfortunately i cant offer more than that. i dont go for the modern subs so cant give much pointers as to accuracy details though at a glance it seems to be pretty much the latest quality swiss version doing the rounds. im curious to know the reason this will be of interest to the group though

nice watches guys and nice photos. you know i really keep trying to get into the GMT, especially the vintage 1675 but i just cant get inspired by them. i really want to but they just dont talk to me yet. i wish they would hurry up though as you can still pick up old ones for sensible money. no doubt ill get the bug once theyve rocketed too

many of the same issues on the other one are present on this, along with the added bonus that not only is the case a different but yet still wrong shape, its also much bigger than a gen version in the flesh by a seriously noticeable amount. ive got two of these lying around the house somewhere with asian movements that anyone can have for free if they want them. the dial is also not much better than the other one, the yellow is very artificial and the dial screams at you even without this. at least its not a mix of various 5512 versions however, (the one linked by predfan and on trustys site seems to be some sort of evil offspring of the gilt dial and the later style making it so incorrect one doesnt know where to begin).. again bezel pearl !!!! the top grade vintage on the same site are improved over this though the same range as listed initially by predfan. as i said, theres very limited options and you are really looking at picking a best of a bad bunch with the vintage nodates. as above, if you can live with a cyclops the vintage dates are much better, if no date is critical and you dont need vintage you will be much closer with a 14060. theres also a vintage seadweller option. MBW/watchmaster do good versions and while theres a date theres no cyclops

heres my 5512 for a reference and comparison if it helps you to get an idea ref accuracy. theres an old one of my two subs to let you see a 5513 and 5512 together too. the comments on the site linked that its one of the best vintage versions around is actually probably quite accurate but its still way way off. the case is the wrong thickness/shape for these for starters, its based on the 1680 case as all the 5513/5512 around are. iv yet to see one correct. the dial is just so wrong its not really worth commenting any more than that. its junk. the plexis not really like the original and the usual issue that the hands are too small holds. the hour hand mercedes is tiny. theres also the usual issues pointed out above, insert is poor especially pearl!!! and CGs need modding to say the least. lug holes will need drilled too. all in all though its not a bad basis for a vintage project. just expect to throw alot of time and money at it if you want it to be remotely passable as either a 5513 or 5512. on the plus these cases take gen crystals. FYI theres not a lot of options around for something such as this and almost all are much worse than this one youve linked. trusty sells them too. something like a 1680 date vintage is much easier to deal with and starts from a much better superficial position while the modern 14060 no date is very very close if you want the no date look. for some reason the vintage no dates are without exception a joke. i guess their lack of popularity rep wise hasnt created demand to force improvement though why they should be this off to begin with is a question in itself

i didnt meant with regards to identifying something wrong with the shape, size or print of the coronet but simply a spotting of the coronet itself on the dial sparking brand recognition. this thread again raises the black cloud lurking along behind rep collecting though. it something thats sadly inescapable even though many here are as passionate or committed to their interest as any (and more so than many gen forums for sure)

im glad to hear you werent "taken" and paid a huge amount for the case however you could have had a complete and modded MBW using as good a case for around similar money im afraid to say. ive seen these cases with the 702 tube and disagree with ubi as to the authenticity of these. im convinced that they are rep versions, especially as they all come preinstalled. a gen tube in new condition would be pushing into almost half the price of the whole thing so it doesnt make sense. machining them given they can make the case wouldnt be an issue thats for sure. my only comment is that if they are making these i wish they would make some 700 twinlock tubes with respect of the eta install. its more than just a spacer unfortunately. you will most likely have to custom a spacer to adapt for your application though if your metalwork skills are good it shouldnt be too hard. the major issue may be around the stem/crown though. the eta movements stem enters deeper down than the rolex. this means that most rep cases have the crown hole somewhat offset to accomodate. your will most likely be centred which while correct for the rolex wont be for the eta. you may be able to just "flex" the stem to work however it will affect operation in respect of smoothness atleast though could be enough to be unusable. i cant say with any certainty how extreme. it may be worth your while to grab rep parts to complete and then swap these out later if you desire for gen parts once you have ironed out the wrinkles. cosmetic gen parts are both rare and expensive and getting more each week it seems. to risk damaging them while working out fitment could very soon become expensive. including a movement you could very quickly hit the 2k region for parts to complete if you go vintage rolex however. regardless it should still be a fun project and as with all hobbys, they dont always need to make financial sense as for getting a gen 5513. it may be worth having a serious look around just now. good matte dials have all but disappeared as prices have rocketed in the last 6 months. theres atleast 10 times as many wanted ads as there are for sale ones as the last few people try to grab them while they can. there doesnt seem to be any signs of things slowing down thats for sure so if you plan of getting a vintage sports, in particular a 5513 in the next while, perhaps try to grab one while theres still a possibility of not having the trawl the dregs as its already becoming that way. you would now seriously struggle to get a good one for less than 4k. ive no idea what the meters first versions are going for as these have all gone way underground and selling out of public eyesight at the moment. i cant think when i last saw one, even with replacement hands. i picked up an all original, matching tritium matte dial meters first 5513 with original crown and tube just as the crest was appearing. i had to bite the bullet at what seemed excessive then for it but what was for now a serious bargain. if you are willing to accept less quality examples with mismatched hands, inserts and poor/replacement/relumed dials then theres still a few popping up around the 3.5k mark once in a while though competition even for these is hot. the vintage GMT is a real sleeper at the moment and can still be picked up around and under 3k for good ones though they are gaining fast now too. theres a few less than great pics of mine on the nodate sub thread in this forum if you are interested in having a peek

im not sure if you were agreeing or finding some disagreement with what i was saying? for clarification my point was that while there are indeed many rolex owners who are also watch enthusiasts and thus take an interest (often seriously) in their watches and by default other peoples, many and i would stretch to suggest more, dont give two cents about their watch let alone other peoples. to expand further, the short of this must mean that many people will be unable to call out your watch with any authority but that theres always a real chance that someone both will and be armed with the facts to do so with reason. regardless of actual authority, as a rolex owner (rep or gen) you are faced with the perception that your watch is infact fake almost any time you encounter anyone either interested or who inadvertently catches the coronet on the dial. its inescapable and something i only see occuring with the rolex brand. a very very large portion of the population assume any rolex they see is fake and do call it out as such, either directly or to their friends or whoever they are with. its my experience that this is not for any reason other than we have all seen them every time we have gone on holiday, every back street shop we have been into, the price for a gen to most seems exuberant and its common knowledge its the most faked watch around. all this adds up to the assumption regardless of most situations or context that any one they notice is probably a fake. im not sure i agree with your comment regarding most rolex owners being too concerned with creating wealth to bother to learn about the myriad of variations across the models however or between gens and reps. the first part conforms to a stereotype attached to rolex ownership that in my experience is largely false and it certainly doesnt explain the latter lack of interest. almost all hobbys in the main are something passionately followed by a few and ignored by the many and watches certainly fall nicely into this category i think. its my opinion that its due to this that many have little or no knowledge on this matter and actually care even less.

the price you paid and the case itself would impact how good a deal you got. its all in the eye of the beholder though with these things so if your happy then thats fine. one point though, if you bid and paid as if it were a genuine case then you may have some scope for requesting a refund. if it was one of the myriad of replica cases advertised as "replacement" and doesnt say that its genuine then you will have trouble returning due to this. most are worded very carefully so that the buyer thinks they are getting a genuine case bidding with an according value and yet has no recourse when it appears they didnt. theres alot of seadweller and sub cases, all from the same original source on ebay just now. many going for 4 figure sums and none of them genuine. ive no idea as to quality of material or workmanship on these however. did you get the blank case or the "kit" with the bezel, insert, tube,crystal and dial? anyways, onto your questions. unless the inside of the case has been machined to fit an eta movement then you will have issues getting one to fit in easily. most likely is been done for the rolex 15xx movement i would suspect, the ones ive seen were though without more details on your one i cant say for sure. to fit an eta in here you will need a spacer ring at the very least. theres a size differential you need to bridge. while rings are readily available from the reps, you will most likely need to work down one of these to custom fit your own case unless it comes supplied with one as the size wont be the same. perhaps you could ask the seller for one. its probable that they sell them too or can get one easily enough. you may also encounter an issue with the stem placement. reps have the crown holes somewhat offset compared to the gens due to a slightly different location/depth on the movement. you may be able to just force it to work however its worth mentioning that there is likely to be some issue here too. from your question regarding the tudor movement i assume that you thought like many that the tudors are simply rolex subs with a different movement and that this might prove a good access route. while tudors did indeed use eta movements with a modified rotor, the cases are different from that of the rolex versions in order to accommodate the different movement dimensions. if you are picking up an eta movement. try to get the slow beat version. the current ones use 28,000bph compared to 18,000 or 19,500 on the genuine rolex movements. the difference is noticeable to say the least and worth the hunt. for the simplest build it would perhaps be easiest if your new case is 1:1 to buy a rolex cal 1520 or similar and use this for your watch. a decent one of these can be picked up for around $1000 or so but figure on another couple of hundred to have a service carried out on it before you start. sources of good used gen vintage parts are also becoming tight with the increase in value of the vintage sports models which isnt good news for franken enthusiasts or gen owners alike. many parts are now less then simple to obtain and what is about it often less then top quality or expensive....and often both. dials are $500 atleast for a passable one, domed crystals $150 minimum now and often more, bezel inserts annoyingly hard to get and expensive when you do. even things like bracelets and endlinks have gone rocketing upwards. even later glossy WG surround 5513 dials, IMHO absolutely disgusting arent cheap anymore. the rise of 5513 has caused sellers to speculate and charge more even for parts considered undesireable. my own 5513 has almost doubled in value in about the last 6 months or so just to give you an idea of the rise currently underway. it had doubled in value over the course of the year previous too. while its fun to build your own watch for sure, it may have proven cheaper and easier to have bought something like an MBW for your starting point and then just customised this as you felt. that being said, watches are a hobby and dont need to make financial sense in the least. theres an attachment and pride in a built watch that cant be bought for sure. its very hard to get a good result with the vintage models IMHO. theres lots of little issues that if you are used to seeing gens really jump out before you even get to the big ones like crown guards, lug holes and the fact that the watch looks too new.

it would be nice to suggest that the variation in price was as a result of materials, accuracy and workmanship however sadly the price variation is dependent upon how many people become convinced that its a genuine rolex case on offer and bid accordingly. genuine rolex replacement cases are marked serial numbers 44xxxxx though there are genuine cases about from watches parted up. its rare that any popular models make it onto ebay though it does happen once in a while for sure

what would fool me at a glance. most models ive no experience with that arent patently fictional or horrendous. unfortunately though its rolex we are discussing which means only one thing. the first thought into most peoples mind is fake regardless of anything else. sure context plays a big part regardless of model but from construction worker to business man the first thought in most peoples mind is going to be "rep" when and if they spot it. i find moderns more subject to this than vintages mainly as they are more conspicuous for some reason. i think that most vintages actually go so low under peoples radars that they arent even spotted for a rolex never mind a replica version. i wear a gen vintage sub daily (either 5512 or 5513 depending) and as a result of this wrist time i can spot reps of those models a mile off. i can also spot redials, modern bezel replacements on gens too and thats for starters and without getting too close to the person. im sure that this must hold for the portion of watch enthusiasts that own a gen of any model, but i am also more sure that theres as large a portion that honestly dont care about your watch, their watch or anyone elses. ive only once had a comment made about my watch and it was along the lines of someone selling good ones on the beach on holiday. would they have cared if id told them it was 40 years old and really rather authentic?

just for fun, heres my two gens, both vintage no dates from mid 60s. 5512 above is before i put the original twinlock back on for the eagle eyed amongst you. the modern triplock is a much better design but i just love the look/feel of the original version. since theres no way im going near water with this watch its twinlock all the way with regards to reps, my own feeling is that the time and investment required to make a good vintage rep is significant to say the least. theres issues across the board with the range of vintage reps beyond that of the simple fact they they always look too new. the inserts are way off, the dials are always very poor, hands are too small particularly the hour hand mercedes and the crystal is always iffy. beyond that theres the issues with the crown/tubes and bezel feel as with the modern ones alongside the other standard issues of crown guards, lug holes and bracelets. vintage sports models have seen a huge rise in value recently. this had made parts availability scarce and expensive and thus the impact on modding up a rep vintage is serious. a decent dial is going to be around $500, a bezel insert around $150 if you can get one (and are happy enough to take a lume one, forget it if you want a tritium version), a superdome is now around $150 and upwards. vintage bracelets are now easily over $500 if you want a 93150 and through the roof if you want a 9315 or a rivet version. endlinks are now more than they are from rolex also. when you take all this in the outlay just for parts to make a decent stab at a passable vintage rep is considerable once you manage to source the parts themselves. you will still need to adjust them to fit, work on the case etc and look into fitting a slow beat eta to compliment. the modern nodates, while still with faults are IMHO a much easier prospect to get something good out of quite readily. gen parts are much more easily available and the stock models are much less instantly identifiable from a 100 yards than the vintage versions as being reps giving you a better base on which to build. that being said, my love lies firmly at the vintage door and if the plexis do it for you, then theres not a lot left but to get your sleeves rolled up and get cracking.

thats cool. its your watch so you should do exactly as you want it to be. thats the whole point ive a reference sheet listing model numbers, qtys made and full specs for all early panerais and it says that angelus 240 movement models had small seconds, rolex models didnt and im sticking with that info as being correct over any pictures im afraid. given that yours could pass for a gen if submitted with pics, i tend to not take anything from pictures i see as theres too much room for misdirection. thats a beautiful watch though, subseconds or not. i personally prefer the sub dial as it gives it what i feel to be the panerai look, many lean the other way though thats for sure. to have either would be sublime and i cant see how one could get any closer than yours. whats the watch featured in the pics above with your angelus model? is it a davidsen version? you know, i worry that the numerals are too thick on davidsens dials but it doesnt look it on your watch thats for sure

just a small point but its a pity you couldnt utilise the little seconds hand on this. according to my reference sheet the vintage models with the angelus 240 used little seconds and the rolex/cortebert 616 did without. its a small thing i know but i still thinks its a shame. regardless its a beautiful watch thats for sure. im super jealous and would snap it up in an instant great work

yeah, hes having some personal issues which i hope work themselves out for the good and we see him back and happy soon. all the best marco

does this even actually require an answer?