TeeJay

That's fair enough though, that's more along the lines of taking a car in for getting a quick tune up and oil change, what I was meaning, was someone who buys a gen, expecting a level of perfection beyond human capacity, because they've spent the dollars, it means a zillion % perfection, because it's a real, not fake R0lex!!!1, and keeps taking it back, several times, within a few days/weeks of purchase, having found a new issue each time it was returned to them. As someone pointed out on TZ once, the person who does that, has probably never bought anything expensive before. Of course, in the rep world, such a person would be told to just buy a gen... In the gen world, I guess the AD flips the sign on the door to 'Closed' when they see them walking down the street

Sounds like a plan, bro

I think you're right there, bro, the higher up the ladder you go with the real world watches, the harder it is for the reps to keep up, and then the lesser quality becomes apparent. Not so much because the rep is a crap watch, if it was being viewed as a watch by itself, but just by comparison to the gen, which likely includes a few complications, and precious metals

I quite agree with you, bro, as I just posted to By-Tor, it's not flaws in replication which are a problem, but sloppiness in construction which is the issue. Okay, I appreciate where these watches are coming from, I understand who's making them, and I accept all that. I accept that human error means that even the most dilligent builder will eventually make a mistake while building their quota. It might be something small, it might be something glaringly obvious, but those're the watches which as above, dealers should not be sending out to people who have paid top dollar for them. Bargain bin specials, sure, but not full priced watches, as people's expectations are for a quality watch

I have to agree with you there. It's like I said to Robbie yesterday, the only rep I've bought which has the kind of unacceptable flaws mentioned (all in one watch) is the Canal St PAM I picked up in Spain. Even then, the dial is clean, that's why I was considering making it a project watch Okay, I might not be buying Super Reps, but when the dial on a $100 GMT Master II can have totally even dial print, each indice properly aligned, and with lume which lasts all night, it does make me wonder just what garbage is being sent out, and what makes dealers think people will accept such substandard stock. I know, people will always say "Well it's only a rep, what do you expect..." Well, if the factories can make most watches at a reasonable standard, they can make all watches at that standard. I know, there'll always be 'factory seconds', but they shouldn't be getting shipped out by dealers as the quality items listed for sale. Offered as 'discounted seconds', or 'good for a project beginner', perhaps, but not as a full price watch. It's like when I said to someone last week 'Buy a gen' because they were concerned about the color of the GMT hand on their asian GMTIIC (which actually matched the dealer's photo of the asian watch) Okay, it might not be the right shade of green, but boo hoo, it's still green, it's not as if it's blue Those're the kind of folks who will only be satisfied by a gen (and would then likely take the gen back to the AD five times, because the bracelet links seize together, or the date wheel doesn't flip at precicely12:00:00 hours, or because the dial is shifted .1mm to the left... People like that will never be satisfied with anything less than 100% unadulterated perfection, which sadly, does not exist even in watches of Rolex prices )

What of them?

I've only dealt with Robert the once, but found him pleasant to do business with. To be honest, I would have said that the version Piratedzeus posted is the same as the one on Tony's site, but the quality of photography on the first one is different, making the dial and insert look a bit darker, and less garish, so I would say that the difference is just an optical illusion created by different lighting conditions at the time of photography

In terms of physical perfection, I agree. That said, as I mentioned with coke vs generic, sometimes the differences can make the rep nice in its own right

I do see your point, bro, and I would agree, that with some things, yes, paying a higher price will often result in a superior product. However, I don't think that that necessarily renders the cheaper product unacceptable... To use coke as an example which you mentioned, I've found that some generic colas have a taste very different to Coca Cola, but that taste, is still pleasant. I do understand what you mean, no, it's not snobbery, and it's not even elitism. I guess all I can call it, 'is an appreciation for the finer things in life': A case of being used to top rate quality, and being prepared to pay for it, on the understanding that you are actually getting something for your money. In a way, I'm the same, in that I'm prepared to pay more for something if I feel like it, but in many situations (and simply because life hasn't been as financially kind to me as others) I'm mostly unwilling to pay the higher price tag, simply because I cannot justify it to myself. To me, I can't justify buying one bottle of Pepsi (which totally PWNS coke ) when for the same amount, I can buy two, maybe three bottles of supermarket generic, which I will enjoy just as much as the Pepsi. I drink a lot of cola, due to hypoglycemia, so for me, it's more beneficial to have a longer-lasting supply, than a smaller quantity with the brand name From that point of view, I am getting more for my money by buying cheap, rather than 'getting more for my money' in terms of quality... With regards watches, the only rep I bought which really fits in the catagory of flaws you described, would be the canal st. PAM I bought in Spain last year. Other than that, even though the watches I've bought could not be considered 'super reps', I don't think any of them have had the kind of flaws you've described. Even the Rolex I'm wearing now, the only issue with the dial, is because I wanted to 'paint over' the dial print. The indices are all on straight, the print is of even quality, and, as I mentioned before, the lume lasted for 8 hours. If the hands weren't vintage, and matched the indices, and if I hadn't taken a Sharpie to the dial ( ) then it would look like a reasonably nice watch. Oh, the bezel teeth could probably be better, but, for my plans, I think the 'lighter' teeth will look better (I want it to look like an elegant watch) than the more deep teeth of an out and out 'action Sub'. It's like when we were discussing the different properties of the various precious metals. There does come a certain point when the property of the precious metal simply cannot be substituted with the rep. But, that's when it comes down to the point you made, is that difference, really worth the additional costs? Financially, I would say yes, because the metal is worth that money, and without that metal in the rep, it will never fully replicate the gen. But, on a personal level, I can only say that I can't justify the amount (if I could afford it ) simply because to me, that kind of detail, while something I can appreciate, is not one of my priorities for actually buying the watch. When I tried on the GMTIIC, I was actually impressed with the feel of it as a watch. It had 'the feel' which I wanted a Rolex to have, when I first strapped on a Sub a few years back, and thought it felt like a lightweight piece of garbage. The GMTIIC gave me the feeling I was expecting, but by the same token, the Explorer II which I tried on, I couldn't get it off my wrist quickly enough. It looked and felt like crap on my wrist. It felt no better than any of my SS reps. It certainly didn't look as good as the watches in By-Tor's incredible photos... In a way, I have a reverse view to yours with regards rep/gen purchasses. I'll go into an AD, try on the gen, and if I like it, I'll buy a rep. As yet, I've never felt let down by the rep compared to the gen in terms of satisfaction with the product as a comparison to the gen, although, I have been let down by the feeling of two gens I tried on (the Submariner and Explorer II). As a result, I bought my Sub rep (which I'm now selling, and simply don't enjoy wearing) and equally, simply wouldn't buy a rep of the Explorer II, simply because I don't think I'd actually want to wear it... So many different opinions and perspectives as to who likes what and why they like it, this place is sure never to get dull

Watcheden is Tony's RWI shop, PWC is a different dealer. I have to admit, my deal with PWC for my 104 was my smoothest transaction of them all... Just don't let MickeyPadge hear me say that I've seen the light blue sub on Tony's site for a couple of weeks, and, I have to admit, I wasn't over impressed. I think the other blue submariner available is nicer in terms of the 'blue'. My advice to anyone would be to buy the pale blue model for the case and bracelet, but then swap over the bezel insert and dial from the darker blue

They say you can't polish a turd... Well, maybe not polish, but at least make it look nice on the plate

Were any mods done to the strap, or was it just forced into place? Looks good

Don't get me wrong, with some stuff, I'll pay whatever it costs, I've always been a believer in the motto "it costs what it costs", but, if I can get a cheaper alternative, then in most instances, that'll be my choice The funny thing, is that I've never actually modded a watch to get it visually closer to a gen, for the sake of getting it visually closer to a gen. When I installed a black second-sweep hand on my 113, it was because the factory-installed white hand, simply wasn't clear against the white dial. Sure, the outcome was that it was visually closer to the gen, but that wasn't actually my intention when doing it Indeed, I think anyone who does say that other people are doing it to 'look cool', are just insecure and trying to knock a homey's hussle. Yes, people want to wear nice watches, but that's because they want to wear a nice watch. People like to wear nice clothes, but it isn't so much a case of trying to impress anyone, it's just a case of wanting to look presentable The Rolex I cobbled together (in the wrist check) and wore last night, didn't get one word spoken about it, but, it was perfect for what I was wearing. It definitely got eyeballed a few times, but no one said anything. I'll take that over "Is that real??!!!" or "Nice watch!" any day of the week, as it means someone's appreciating the watch, but keeping it to themselves That's an awesome example I hope your friend told the AD he was returning it to buy a cheaper rep of the same watch That'd've really bugged them The crazy thing about it, is that your friend is probably just as happy with the rep, if not more so, than he would've been with the gen As I've said before, rep or gen, expensive or cheaper, a nice watch, will always be a nice watch, regardless of what the dial or price tag says Precisely The other thing which needs to be taken into account, is the ponce bigging it up at the bar, shaking his wrist every 2 seconds to get the attention, even if he happens to be wearing a gen (but chances are, that kind of behaviour it'll be a rep) will be thought of much worse, than the person sitting quietly, wearing a rep, which only gets exposed when he raises his arm to take a drink I know what you mean, in theory, the person behind the till might not be in the pay bracket to afford a gen, but, there are always factors to through the equasion... Graduation presents, inheritance (either the item itself, or the cash used to buy it) random fluke like snagging a watch put for the stake in a poker game... Unless the dial reads 'Bolex', it's always possible that a watch is genuine, even if unlikely... I remember once sitting opposite a businessman on a train coming out of London wearing a TT Sub. At first glance, one might think 'gen', but, his clothes looked like they'd come from a thrift store, and I figure someone working in the city, able to afford a TT Sub, would at least be able to afford a decent suit for work Also, although he might admittedly have simply been tired, but his entire demeanor was, well, let's just say a tattoo on his foreheard reading 'PWNED!' would have just about summed it up Equally, another time, I saw a guy of similar age wearing a TT Sub with jeans and a Ralph Lauren polo shirt, but, he didn't have a 'broken by the system' air about him, and his clothes, while worn, were at least good quality. I figured he probably had the kind of position where he could wear what he wanted Well, there's the factories who just buy a gen, dismantle it, and then copy every part, and there's also the factories which are contracted by the companies to produce the parts (such as highlighted by the Hublot BigBang fiasco) and who just make surplus parts to pass on. And probably several other sources as well My dad used to work in engineering, and the company he worked for dealt a lot with formula one commissions, as well as other industrial component manufacturers, and it ultimately just comes down to having an adequately stocked machine shop, the people to operate the machinery, and the raw materials for manufacture. If something can be made by one person, then it's possible for someone else to replicate it

Thanks, bro I think if I'm lucky and the Air-King dial fits (and I think it should) then I definitely think it'll have the kind of look of the SOH. I have to admit, I had planned on keeping the sub as it was on the NATO strap, but I wanted a watch on a strap for the costume party, and that seemed the most logical watch to alter. The strap gives the case a real elegance, which surprisingly, the bezel actually adds to in this instance (maybe it's the lack of crown guards) so I thought that a more elegant dial might look nice As you say, I can always put the Sub dial in the Air-King case, and that'll then be wearable on the NATO I like what you've done with yours. It doesn't matter that the dial's sterilized, it looks like a really nice, functional watch

I'm wearing this at the moment I wore it out last night, to a friends 'gangster-themed' birthday drinks. I didn't flash it about at all, and no one actually commented on it, but I did catch a few people eye-balling it at various points of the evening I kept it on over-night, rather than changing back to my GMT Sub, and when I woke up this morning, I had an idea for using it in a further project Oh, also, the lume kept it's charge for about 8 hours. It wasn't glowing this morning, but I could easily tell what the time was, and I've just kept it on all day

I'm thinking of taking this Silix Vintage Submariner: Swapping in the dial and hands from this AirKing: And hopefully getting something resembling the Breitling SOH: Given the measurements of the viewable dial area of the Submariner, I think it might work... Another long-term project, but I just wanted to share

The dial in this sub is measuring at 28mm, but is only displaying at 27 The plan can continue

I had a feeling they were the same Thanks for the info on the size Time to get out the measuring instroments

Personally, I take an interest in the traditions and history behind the watches, but, I still prefer to buy reps, because at heart, I'm a cheap bastard When I was wearing my 029a on vacation in Spain, and someone we were dining with asked me about it, I was able to tell them just as much about the history of the company as I could have it had been a gen, so I don't consider that any disrespect to the heritage at all, as the story is still being told with respect. In circumstances like that, when someone is simply showing an interest in a watch, I don't think it matters if is rep or gen, as they're interested in the watch itself, so it's not actually a question of it being rep or gen. I'd have to disagree with you there. Someone might know a watch inside and out, but, at the end of the day, if someone suspects that a watch is a rep (and to be honest, it is) trying to convince them otherwise, is a pointless exercise. Most people have the manners not to ask if a watch is rep or gen, and those who don't, and do ask, they certainly don't deserve an intelligent response I think a chuckle and "who cares?" is all they deserve Trying to pass a rep off as gen is just asking for public humiliation I think it depends on why someone is modding a watch to truly answer that. Someone might want to get the most accurate looking watch, so they'll have the satisfaction of something which looks just as nice as a crazy money gen, but cost a fraction of the cost. Then you've got the crazy bastards like me, who will modify a watch, not for accuracy of replication to the gen, but for personal aesthetic or functional requirements. I didn't build my GMT Sub because I wanted to be wearing a Rolex (because that's the bestest brand EVER!!!1 ) , it was just a case of those were the parts which I thought would fit together, and were easy to obtain, and result in an actual unique watch. Doing a similar thing with an Omega Seamaster, would be pointless. The SMP is available with GMT complication, and all a dial swap would achieve, would essentially, be removing the identifier GMT from the dial... The rest of the dial would be the same. With Rolex however, there is no GMT Submariner made. The GMT watches which visually resemble the Submariner have only ever been identified as GMT Masters, or, in different casing, the Explorer range. I was just going with the parts to give me what I wanted: A Rolex Submariner, with a GMT complication I think you misunderstood me slightly, bro. If I won the lotto, I would not suddenly start buying gens just so the watches in my collection would be gens rather than reps, but, if it was a case of having the funds to afford to build my GMTCSub out of gen watches, while I probably wouldn't do it, feeling the money could be better spent, but, from the perpective of actually butchering some Rollies, I wouldn't hesitate to actually do it, simply for the sheer bloody-mindedness of doing it, and the satisfaction of knowing that not only was the watch precicely what I wanted (as mentioned above) but also the satisfaction of knowing that it was actually built out of OEM parts, totally against the manufacturer's intentions To be honest, I couldn't care less if the watch I build is gen or rep, either way, it'll still be a watch which I personally put together 'my way', or my own pleasure, and that individuality transcends distinctions of rep or gen, especially in the eyes of the general public. Sure, tell them something is a rep, and they're going to think "it's a cheap-ass fake..." Tell them that you built it yourself, and regardless of the parts used, it becomes interesting as a watch in its own right

I've done a search, but can't find any reference. I know the cases are 36mm, I was wondering what size the dials themselves might actually be? I'm guessing around the 25mm region rather than 30mm? Thanks in advance guys Yes, you've guessed it, I've got another crazy idea for a potential build, but I don't think it would work

That's fantastic, thanks for the references, guys Based on those photos, I think I know which case I want to try and cram my project into Thanks again

Nice

Should they be thick or thin?

I'm quite happy to do custom requests on canvasses, but they're a bit more than eBay price

Definitely Looking good, bro