TeeJay

I absolutely agree, making a profit is the purpose of business. There are, however, companies which survive by selling a reasonable product at a reasonable price. That is also business. Personally, I do not think 'prestige' (which ultimately comes down to 'brand worship') warrants artificially inflated prices. At the end of the day, that is the decision the consumer has to make. Now, while I agree with your first part, no, it wouldn't be fair, but then again, the world rarely is. As for the second point, I would disagree. Just because they had gained experience and renown, if the quality of their product remained the same as before (barring reasonable refinements in the creative process compared to the very first strap they ever made) then there is still no justification in an increase in price as the product remains the same. As I said above, personally, I do not think that personally applicable opinions on a product (ie 'popularity'/'covetability') should have any reflection on the item's price. If something is actually worth a high price, then fair play, but just because a lot of people like it, so the maker decides to up the price? Sorry, I don't agree with that, because as you sayu, it's up to each person to draw their own conclusions. I think that that, at the core, is where our opinions are so different on this subject. Even if I had the money, I still wouldn't buy gens (unless I felt they were reasonably priced) Say I won a quadruple rollover lottery, I certainly wouldn't rush out and replace my collection of reps with the genuine versions, as then, those would just be 'watches in a box', rather than having the sentimental value which my current collection has (other than my Daytona and 111h, which were simply 'purchasses' rather than sentimental ones) That said, I'd apply that philosophy across the board, as I do now, in that I'd buy generic, replica, or more likely, hand-made clothes rather than High Street prices on designer labels. Hand-made clothes might not have a swanky label, but you sure can't beat the feeling of knowing that a garment, not only fits you perfectly, but was made just for you. I'd even go so far as to say I'd go that way with vehicles too, and buy 'kit cars', or custom built rather than buying a prestigious marque (I'm not much of a gear hear, but I'd still love to build my own kit car oneday so I could at least say "I built that...") I probably should've put this final point at the beginning as it probably makes my other comments make more sense

Rep dealers/manufacturers seem to be surviving on selling near replicas at reasonable prices...

How do YOU know what our level of knowledge may be in this field? As I said before, I have worked on many different projects over the years. Belt making close enough to strap making for you? Now you're going to phone the FTC and ask about how their definition applies to the Real World?? I hope you remember to cite Cranium's examples of guitar and golf clubs when you call them Indeed, what an angry little man you are

You're more than welcome I have a friend who I think would absolutely love a watch like that (he's not a real watch guy, but I know that that's 'his style') Ahh, I wondered if that might be the case, as when I baked the lume on my Omega it hardly glowed anymore. The thing I did find interesting, was both the hands and dial received the same baking, yet the lume on the hands was untouched and remained white, but the lume on the dial and insert pearl, went an orangey yellow (and the pearl fell out )

That looks awesome I achieved a similar vintaging effect by accident on an Omega project watch when I left it under a daylight bulb for a few hours to dry condensation from it, and the lume went the same color as you have there. Out of curiosity, does the lume still glow, or is it a reduced flourescence? I think that might well be a future project I'll have to tackle

Can't say I blame you. When I ordered the vintage Rolex, I received no tracking number, no nothing, and after a month, (and over a weekend) emailed for an update. When I checked in monday, there were two messages. One saying the original shipment (which had had no tracking number) had been intercepted by customs and was being re-sent, and the second, containing the tracking number. When the parcel arrived, it was the wrong watch, and the jubilee bracelet I ordered was absent. An email was met with the offer to send the correct dial, and the missing bracelet. I am now in the same situation. No tracking number, and after a month, I am debating if I should send a confirming email. I am torn about doing this though, because if I do, I am sure I will receive a reply saying the delivery was confiscated (again ) and that will just confirm my suspicions that Jay tells people whatever he thinks the want to hear to explain delays from sitting on orders, and if I don't sent an email, I'm also sure I'll never receive the dial and bracelet... I think I'll wait and see what happens. I wasn't going to wear the Rolex anyway, so it's not really worth running around after it. I've got my dealer who I know I can trust, so I'll be sticking with him

Of course it does not apply. One relates to jewellery, the other does not. The first FTC definition you quoted clearly stated hand labour and manually-controlled methods. Why does Oszolom need to grow up? The points they make are totally valid. If you want to consider a strap to be 100% hand made, you are left with the position of cutting the leather with your teeth and nails. Pushing the thread through the holes (bitten through, of course) by hand without a needle. Sorry, but if you're going to try and insist that 'hand made is hand made', that's the level you have to be reduced to. The FTC definition, as mentioned above, stated "Hand labor AND manually-controlled methods". Using tools and manually controlled machines, falls under the remit of 'manually-controlled methods'. To be honest, I'm getting sick of wasting time debating an issue with someone clearly unwilling to accept that their own definitions have proved the point against them, and to be honest, you're starting to look like a troll. People have more important things to discuss than if a strap is being incorrectly labelled as 'hand-made', 'hand-crafted' or 'hand-tooled'...

The HBB's never really been my cup of tea, but that's an awesome watch, and a fantastic price deal

Sorry, I missread your post

That really is one of the risks of a rep. I have a similar flaw on my Rolex Daytona, where one of the marker lines is actually printed at the wrong angle. That said though, it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the watch, because I accept that as a rep, I can't expect 100% perfection or fidelity to the original. For that, one must by genuine... With regards a reliable watchsmith, I would recommend trying an independant jeweller/watchsmith as they're more likely to be prepared to work on such an item, and simply view it as 'a watch'. Any kind of branch of a chain is likely to get snooty and uppity about it, so best to avoid those. Is PT not prepared to send you a replacement dial? Best of luck

We're not talking about jewellery though, are we, we're talking about watch straps, so that definition does not apply. Besides, the other definition said 'manually-controlled', and such things, electrical or otherwise, are still manually-controlled.

There's a childrens TV character called Th0mas the Tank Engine. It would appear that there's a word filter which changes each use of the name to 'Admin'

Thanks for the links, I'll give them a look Something that did rather shock me, was the StrapCulture Legend thread. The SC photo shows a gorgeous mahogany colored strap (one I've considered getting) but the strap received, was a rather indistinct 'brown'... Not particalarly inspiring in confidence.... Thanks again for the links

Perhaps 'trick' was an ill-chosen word. As I said, Yes or No did not really apply to those questions as it was not a 'black or white' answer, but a definitely grey one. As I said before, while I acknowledge that there is a definite difference between a strap sewn by hand, and one done on a sewing machine, nothing will change the fact that the sewing machine will only do what the operator wants it to do. In both instances, be it hand sewing or by sewing machine, the maker is responsible for what happens. The rest of the article is of no interest to me whatsoever. The quote you provided summed up perfectly. You are now proving my point for me. They are not two different methods, but one in the same. As I said in my past post, are those tools, mechanical or otherwise, controlled by the operator? The simple answer is "Yes they are". As long as something is 'manually-controlled', then that, by the definition given, allows the product to come under the catagory. The point still stands about the electric guitars. The point also stands that if you want to insist on 'hand-made' being such an exclusive standard, then only Human hands can be used in the process, and, as pointed out with the comment about chewing through leather, is a standard I doubt any artisan works to. As I said, I'd be prepared to compromise between the two and call such items 'hand-tooled' as that covers both the human and the tool aspects. If you disagree, so be it, we will have to agree to disagree, as I am not prepared to keep debating an issue which has not only become cyclical, but one where definitions you provided actually counter your own argument, and I see no reason to keep reitterating the same points which that definition also specifies.

That's what I thought was interesting about it While I'd be the first to admit that radical Islamic terrorism is a problem, articles like that make me wonder if terrorism hasn't become 'the new communism'... Don't like how someone looks? Call them a terrorist... Don't like what someone believes in? Call them a terrorist... Don't like how another country runs it's affairs? Call them terrorists... McCarthy would be proud I was tempted to take a photo of my copy of the Holy Qur'an surrounded by my reps, but that would be disrespectful and borderline blasphemous, and I don't particularly want to get myself smited

I know the feeling... I know it's unlikely to ever be done, but I would love to see a rep of the HD3 Capture

I know what you mean about waiting to get it. I have the 42mm version, which was given to me as a gift. Having seen pictures of the orange PO, I wasn't over interested in it, and likely wouldn't have bought one for myself. However, being given one, is a different matter, and I figured it would twin nicely with my black 42mm PO. When it arrived, I was shocked and surprized by how nice the orange color actually is. It's not at all as garish as it can appear in photos, but is a nicely muted color. I don't wear the watch as I killed the movement by trying to work out how to regulate it, and that asside, the color just isn't really 'my style', that said, it is a really nice watch, and I can't see myself ever parting with it. I hope you get lots of wear from yours

Sorry, but that trick doesn't work in this instance Those things, sewing machine, cutting table, bench grinder, etc, are all manually-controlled by the maker, as per the definition YOU provided. I agree, it is not the same as someone hand stitching the strap, or cutting the leather by hand with a fixed blade knife, but that isn't the point. The point, which the FTC definition allowed, was for hand work AND manually-controlled methods. Is a sewing machine manually controlled? Yes or No. Is a leather cutting machine manually controlled? Yes or No. Is a bench grinder manually controlled? Yes or No. Sorry, but YOU provided the FTC definition, and that quite clearly said: Don't try back-peddling just because your definition has actually worked against you. As I said, I'm happy with the term 'hand-tooled'. It covers both, which, is what the FTC guideline allows for. Hand labor and manually-controlled methods.

I've heard people say about using clear laquer to prevent a nickel reaction before as well. The one thing I would say, is that such a coating might require periodic replacement... If Rolexes look huge on her, then a PAM would be ludicrously oversized... The Chanel J12 comes in a 33mm case, so should be about right, and, I'd still suggest putting it on a bund strap thus: (sorry for the poor photos, but they'll give you the idea)

I don't get it?? Your're the one trying to dispute a definition you yourself provided. Just to clarify, that says: and: Now, those are your own quotes and definitions (or at least ones you are providing) and as for your comments about a dremel, you're just digging yourself further into the hole as the speed of a dremel is manually adjustable (controllable), and thus, fits into the definition you yourself provided. As I said before, I'm happy to compromize and use the term 'hand-tooled', but to be honest, the FTC definition you provided allowed for both hand labor and manually-controlled methods (aka tools)

Nice collection A PVD PAM is on my 'must have' list. Welcome to the party

Sorry, I considered hole punching in with braddling, and as for finishing and QC, that's just standard procedure. It goes without saying that an artisan checks their work, so doesn't really belong on the list... Really. Sorry, but that would mean using tools of any variety, as long as they are manually controlled, which was the point I made several times above...

Not normally a fan of the watch, but with that suit, it all works really well

After 'the incident' with 'the other strap', I got the 111h back on it's stock strap ASAP. (old pic) Really excited for the Toscana Light Chestnut Bone Crocodile strap to arrive which V so kindly got me :wub:

While I would certainly not say that a branded 'production car' was hand made, I would say that that term could definitely be applied at a 'kit car', or extensively modified hot-rod where the owner has essentially built it from the ground up by fabricating panals. A comment I read on a car forum, which I think somewhat fitting, was "You can only do so much work before a 'restoration' project becomes a 'replica'." Personally, I think that statement is a Ship of Theseus debate, but I think it still fits with this issue, of what percentage of the work must be done by hand for it to be considered 'hand made'. In which case, you would possibly find the term 'hand tooled' more appropriate in terms of strict definition? As an artist, I certainly agree that there is a difference between making something entirely by hand and using elbow grease rather than a power-tool to make something. However, this is not about what you or I consider 'hand made', but what the buying public are prepared to tollerate and accept thus. As far as the uninformed public are concerned, 'hand tooled' is the same as hand made. I might not have made a strap, but as mentioned, I have worked on other, and similar, projects. I may not be an expert, but I do know the work involved. Dyeing, pattern cutting, braddling, gluing, stitching. Have I missed anything out? My point was not what took more of the process time, but that the stitching does not make up 50% of the volume of the strap. I said that quite clearly. Stitching may indeed take a majority of the process time, and sometimes, it can play a crucial part of the structure and even appearance of the strap, but in terms of product volume, the point I was making, the majority is composed of the leather the strap is made from. It is not a case that I do not accept the standard, it is a case of the dictionary definition not being the overall public opinion, as I mentioned above re 'hand made' Vs 'hand tooled'. The dictionary definition may well be what it is, but that does not mean that that is what people necessarily think, and it is this issue of perception, which I feel outweighs 'pure definition'. To which the point returns as Oszolom said. While I would not consider a knife to be mechanical, it is still a tool, and as I said, unless you want to make a strap with absolutely no tools whatsoever, then you cannot argue that the straps are 'hand made'. I believe our disagreement is with the relevence of the tool (whatever it may be) within the process. I agree that the definition is the definition, but as mentioned above, the general public would certainly consider something 'hand tooled' to be 'hand made'. Maybe not factually accurate, but still their overall opinion. As mentioned above, 'hand tooled', rather than 'hand made', then to things it applies, certainly. Most cars are built on assembly lines which operate without human interaction, although they could certainly be classified as 'hand finished', as people have to put the parts together, as with a watch. As I said before, it is a matter of semantics.