Jimmythree

Another eta clone... http://hangzhouwatch.com/product_view.asp?id=56

"It is very easy to say that if you can not provide for a child, don't have one but this philosophy is not followed in society." Very true. Many of the world's ills are caused by overpopulation with more sure to come.

You are correct of course...a slightly different point of view. I think that if a family can not provide for kids they should not have kids...period, and that parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. I understand conditions can come up that change well laid plans though. The friends I grew up with all came up pretty rough and it has stayed with me into later life. I never had a lot of sympathy for others, plain and simple....one exception is kids.

disclaimer: I did not read the replies below, only the headline post and my comments do not take into consideration what has been said other than the headline post. I have seen many stories about 'child labor' in developing countries and they all seem to target a particular section of popular merchandise...clothing, electronics, footwear etc. I have also seen claims by legitimate brand owners that the counterfeiting of popular products...handbags, shoes, watches etc was performed by 'child labor' and the product in question was sold to raise money for terrorism or some other nefarious deed. In short, they always try to lay a guilt trip on you. I do not believe much of it. I carried newspapers when I was 13 years old. Was this 'child labor'? NO! ...but it seemed like it was (to me) on cold winter and hot summer days. I worked in a supermarket bagging groceries and mopping floors when I was 16 years old. Was this child labor? NO! ...but it seemed like it when they had a week long 'chicken sale'..."Cut up Free! Only 29 cents a pound!" Kids working in a factory sewing shirts or handbags together is a bit easier for me to believe than a kid assembling mechanical wristwatches...although I have seen some watches that looked like they were assembled by a five year old kid with ADD. A few reasons why this never did bother me very much (assuming might be true)... 1...It is not my problem...the kid's parents are to blame first and foremost. 2...This is an enforcement problem for the country where it takes place. If the kid is denied an education, mistreated, and/or forced to work...this should be stopped. no question about it. If the kid works part time under adult/family supervision, then this is probably not much of a problem. 3...I would have to see real proof that 'child labor' was used to make replica watches before it would change my mind and everyone should know that proof and truth are extremely rare commodities when dealing with foreigh countries. As far as that goes...truth and proof are extermely scarce in the USA when dealing with politicians etc! Especially during election years. 4...The majority of replica forum posters do not actually know where replicas are assembled. (I for sure do not know) Are they assembled in factories?, sweatshops?, small workshops that specialize in mechanical/quartz watch assembly?, in homes where assembly is performed by family members? (this is probably where most 'child labor' goes on imho) Maybe a 'collector' could shed some light on this subject.

quote = I am sure that The Zigmeister noted that in most cases the eta parts will fit the clone, not much of a "clone" other wise, they are proberbly made on ex ETA machinery any way, The Zigmeister what is your take on this? /quote The only thing I know about the 2836 clone made by Sea-Gull is from reading this: http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f...p;sk=t&sd=a The 2836 clone at the top of the post is like the one I had with the rotor that fell off...it had the fancy decoration etc with rolex type cutouts in the rotor. I have never had one apart to see what will interchange but the guy who wrote the TZUK article said not much will. I do not know. I also seriously doubt the clones are made on Swiss machinery as the Swiss are finally figuring out that China will sooner or later be a huge threat to the Swiss watch business. The ST19 (Venus 175 clone) may be built on Swiss machine tools but Venus sold the machinery because they no longer needed it. If they thought it would ever be a threat to "Swiss Watches", they would never have sold the machinery. Why? Because time goes by and things change... Late 1970s: Japanese quartz watches knock the Swiss watch business flat without warning. Example: The new quartz Seiko Astron was selling for $2000+/- while the average Swiss mechanical watch was around $150+/-. Early 1980s: The Swiss started making quartz watches and movements to stay alive but quartz watches were getting cheaper at the retail level every month. Mid 1980s: Rolex and a few others stick with mechanical watches while pumping out all kinds of propaganda about "Swiss Tradition", "Swiss Quality" etc in an effort to make people want obsolete Swiss mechanical watches again. Rolex had a quartz watch but it did not sell...probably because the second hand jumped just like a $15 quartz watch. Late 1980s: It's working!...brand new "obsolete" mechanical Swiss watches that went unsold for $200 in the late 1970s are selling like hot cakes for $3000 retail. 1990s: Swiss mechanical watches are making a huge comeback as collectors run auction prices higher and higher and the Swiss brands are jacking retail prices up!, up!, up! The mecnanical "Swiss Made" watch business comes back from the brink of destruction. Many "Swiss Made" watches had German, French, HK etc cases in the 1960s and 1970s so in the 1980s and 1990s many Greedy Swiss Watch Companies keep making "Swiss Made" watches with more and more non Swiss components...mostly China made cases, bracelets, dials etc to save $$ on production cost and increase profit. The Swiss set the stage for this years ago by lowering "Swiss Made" standards so they could use non Swiss cases, bracelets, dials etc and still claim the watch to be "Swiss Made". Keep in mind that with the lower "Swiss Made" standards...they can now sell a Chinese watch with a Swiss movement and still claim it is "Swiss Made". 1990s revisited: Good news! Computer design and computer driven machine tools make watches cheaper to make than ever...stick a chunk of metal in the machine and stand back! Bad news...The internet is growing by leaps and bounds and the "Swiss Made" 51% Rule (by value) plus "Swiss Assembled and Adjusted" scam comes to light world wide. ...people begin to notice "Made in China" stamped on the bracelet of their new $4000 "Swiss Watch". 2000s: Now that China is beginning to make better movements, the Swiss are finally waking up and start working on rule changes so the watch has to be 80% "Swiss" (by value = Swiss assembled and adjusted) rather than 51%. (they are also beginning to wonder if China just might be able to make complete high grade watches someday) Good news? Probably not...the Swiss will probably just use cheaper and cheaper non Swiss made cases, bracelets etc to lower the ratio to 20% in value. "Assembled in Switzerland" = stick a few screws in the movement and slap it in the case. "Adjusted in Switzerland" = make sure it runs. 2005 - 2011: Swatch decides to cut off movement kits to watch brands outside the Swatch Group and limit the supply of complete movements. Early 2008: Eta 2836 jumps from $75 to $175, Eta 2892 jumps from $125 to $225 and supplies are way down. The Chinese (Sea-Gull) have started making 2836 and 2892 "clones" and watch makers are putting them in watches. Good news? Yes!...but only if they make the movements to a high standard and stamp Sea-Gull under tha balance wheel and on the winding rotor. Bad news? Yes again!...unless you like fake "Eta" stamped movements with hair and dirt but no oil...at Eta prices. This is the problem. Finally! Why do I think Eta clones are not being made using Swiss machine tools? Because all this can not make the Swiss very happy so I doubt they sold Sea-Gull the machinery to do it with.

I had one about a year ago. I traded it and the winding rotor fell off. The guy brought it back, I dug the rotor screw out, put the rotor on and it never came back. It ran OK...gained a little. Having said that...I do not want another one because like the man said...they are hit or miss and no parts. No parts is a real problem because it makes the movement worthless if anything goes wrong and a part is needed. According to the teardown of one on TZUK, pivot sizes etc are different from eta and will not interchange. If they were $25 or $35 like other China movements they would be OK...but at eta prices...forget it. When I read about someone passinng them off as 'Swiss Eta' I get a little bit red in the face. Imho they are nothing more than $35 fake eta movements and should be used in $125 fake watches. Why not just make fake rolex movements?

quote = The Polex-ones are rare collectibles. /quote How many of you have a clasp with: RBGSFRKED SNSAWABE on the left side of the rolex logo... and D12 STEBLHOX 62523N.18 on the right Just me probably.

quote = Some guy over at RWG1 posted a thread about what a shame it is that so many people are wearing subs yet they do not dive.... He went on to explain that a watch should not be purchased/worn unless you plan to use it for its intended purpose....and was rather arrogant about it also.... So this got me thinking....does ANYONE agree with this lunatic? My argument was that if you like the way it looks and you can afford it then you are justified in buying and wearing it regardless of its intended purpose.... With this he does not agree.... /quote It makes me laugh when someone gets puffed up about "tool watches". ...especially fake tool watches. I have a friend who is an airline pilot. He does not wear a watch when flying because: 1...Close quarters in the cockpit causes him to bang a watch on everything. 2...There is a radio controlled clock on the instrument panel. 3...The last thing you need to know when landing a plane full of drunk vacationers in a thunderstorm is what time it is. On the ground, he does not wear a watch...he has a cell phone if he needs to know what time it is. I also have a friend who is a sat diver and he does not wear a watch when in the water because: 1...Someone topside keeps track of time etc. 2...The diving company will fire him if they catch him wearing a watch while diving. He wears a $125 quartz Seiko diver when off duty. I have another friend (brother of the airline pilot) who is a locomotive engineer and he must have a railroad approved watch on at all times and it has to be within 15 seconds of the Chief Dispatcher's Standard Time. He is required to check his watch against a standard clock every time he goes on duty. Three things you better know when you are on the road: 1...Your mile post location within 1/10 of a mile. 2...Speed. 3...What time it is. No watch, speeding etc = an investigation. Investigation = formal hearing with a Division Trainmaster and someone (usually a union rep) to represent the employee to find out why an operating rule was violated. He wears a Seiko RR approved quartz watch while on duty and does not wear a watch when off duty...he carries a cell phone. The mechanical "tool watch" is a dinosaur.

quote = Anyhow, just to clarify: will a 24-603-0 fit EITHER the old version or the new version tube? Or are there 24-603-0 variants (5.3mm vs 6mm) for each tube? And if so, how does one differentiate? Or do I need a crown with a different part number altogether? /quote A 603 crown will not work on a regular 6.0mm case tube, only a 5.3mm tube. Both crowns are 6.0mm outside diameter but the 24-603-0 etc has a crown post that is about 1.8mm in diameter where the regular 6.0mm crown (24-600-0 etc) post is about 2.15mm in diameter. Crown post = the tube coming out of the crown cap, not the telescoping threaded part. It's my opinion that anyone selling rolex parts should be sharp enough to know what they are selling and not keep sending the wrong parts over and over. I would ask the seller to refund shipping cost or give you an extra free crown for the trouble. Here are a couple posts about crowns and tubes: http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/mess...ation+continued http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/mess...s+information...

quote = i honestly believe that if the springdrive movement had come out with rolex or IWC or omega or panerai on the bridges it would be described as "the biggest advance in the recent history of horology" /quote I know what you mean. The diehard rolexfreaks went crazy about the 'new blue hairspring' that rolex came out with...their first new idea in 40 years. I got so excited that I yawned three times in a row before dozing off. I have also seen remarks claiming the Daytona is priced way too low...they want it priced so no one except a few rolex 'watch elites' can afford one. Then, after all the nail biting anticipitation of waiting three years to pay full retail plus tax for one...they wind up in therapy after "getting the call"...and the next guy on the list gets it. I guess the new $10k 'deep sea' is a real bargain... $10k for a $300 case and bracelet plus a $300 movement... Wait a minute! It has solid gold hands and hour markers! ...add $35.

quote = Sorry if this is a dumb question as I'm still a noob but is there a rep watch with quartz movement that has smooth sweeping second hand like in the automatic? Can you please provide examples and which dealer carries them ? Thanks, /quote About 10 years ago Seiko made a smooth sweeping quartz watch that had a regular one second tick but employed a small sweep second hand drive unit with a tiny hairspring enclosed inside a silicone filled capsule to dampen the motion. The watch was mostly for the Japan market so they did not make it into the world market in numbers and I have seen only one in the USA. I's a simple concept but would cost movement makers a few dollars per movement. If you figure the aveage high quality quartz movement cost maybe $10 to make and sells wholesale to watch makers for $20, adding a this type of smooth sweep second feature (at $10 for example) would double the production cost to $20 and jump the wholesale price to $40...a price watch makers would not be willing to pay. One exception is the quartz chronograph...some have a center timing hand that jumps 5 or 10 times a second to give 1/5th or 1/10th second timing accuracy. The reason this does not drain the battery quickly is because the timing hand does not run all the time. An instruction manual for a quartz chronograph may state the average battery life is 2 years under normal conditions and running the second hand all the time will cut it down to 6 months. Otoh a 5 tick per second quartz watch could probably run for a couple years on a 2016 or 2032 (3 volt) battery for example, but the watch makers probably figure no one cares enough to buy one. Regular time and date watches with a 2016 or 2032 battery will usually run 5 to 10 years between battery changes. It looks to me that a 5 tick per second quartz movement with a 2032 battery would make replicas a lot easier to live with than a mechanical movement that needs TLC all the time...especially chronographs! As far as that goes...I doubt the rolex oysterquartz watch failed to sell because no one wanted the convenience of a quartz watch...imho they failed to sell because the second hand jumped every second like a $20 watch. The reason watch companies make trivial changes to cheapen a watch and resist costly improvements is that the actual production cost of a $2000 retail watch may be only $200, so knocking $20 off the production cost by cutting corners = saving 10% of the total cost of making the watch...and adding $20 in improvements raises production cost 10%. Most watches retail for big bucks but cost nickles and dimes to make. It beats me how any high priced watch brand could go out of business if they sell much at all. ...maybe it's the private jet, caviar, and $10k hookers.

quote = I paid quite a lot to luckyyy (when he was still in business) for a MBW sub with solid gold midlinks.... they do exist but I'd think they are not easy to get, you'd have to test each one. PreciousTime had different ones with solid gold midlinks for a while before his supplier started giving him plated ones and some were not happy. He'd had a similar test to show the solid gold... but you really need to test each watch to make sure. /quote I have been around genuine and replica watches a looong time and have seen quite a few replicas with solid gold in them. About 5 years ago, a lot of tutone DJ showed up with solid gold mid links in the jubilee bracelets and solid gold bezels. They were supposed to be 14k but when tested the gold was about 10k. I removed the bezels on a few and had them tested along with the bottom of a few center links. None were above 10k. The crowns were heavy gold plated. The watches looked good though. At the time gold was around $400/troyoz and the watches sold for $750. A solid gold (claimed to be 18k) prez was $2000 to $3000 depending on bezels, dials etc but we never tested one. All the watches had 25 jewel etas in them and sapphire crystals...the crystals were aftmkt replacements. Fast forward to March 2008... I decided to make one up just to see how much it would cost. 1...new tutone black dial replica DJ with eta 25 jewel movement = $175 iirc, it's from 3 years ago 2...replica clasp = $0 (took it from the DJ) 3...ss/14k high quality 22 link Italy made jubilee with regular weight center links = $530 today's price ** heavy weight center link bracelet is $620 today...4 years ago they were $299 for light center link and $359 for heavy c/l 4...used genuine 18k DJ bezel from watch show = $150 ** the bezel was worn where some idiot tried to polish it so I turned it down to a smooth bezel 5...genuine used crown = $25 6...new genuine case tube, sealing washer and gasket = $15 7...new aftmkt oem spec swiss made sapphire crystal and gasket = $40 8...new stainless springbars (3) = 30 cents 9...new clasp rivet set and reinforcing tube = 50 cents 10...caseback gasket = 50 cents total = about $935US (counting $0 for labor and shipping cost) Figure a 'collector' pays around $125 to $150 for a swiss eta sub in steel/gold plate. Add a 14k solid center link bracelet for $300 = $450 cost. (there's quite a bit of gold in a 12 or 13 link oyster bracelet) Add a solid 14k bezel for $150 and it jumps to $600 cost. (a solid 8k aftmkt sub bezel was $99 in 7-07, today they are $199, aftmkt 18k was $299, today they are $499...there's not much gold in sub or gmt bezels) Add a genuine crown and case tube and it jumps to about $700 cost. Flash back 4 years and the difference in the bracelet price would make the DJ project watch cost about $715. Someone making these watches today with four year old bracelets will charge today's prices for the bracelets...not the four years ago price. Today, cheapo ss/14k bracelets are around $300 to $400 (the links are sometimes uneven on the bottom side and look ratty). Unknown karat weight tutone bracelets are around $250 (anywhere from 6k up). High quality ss/14k Italian bracelets are around $500 (good fit and finish, no question on karat content). A few years ago I saw some $199 tutone jubilee bracelets that were claimed to be ss/14k...we tested one and the center links were heavy gold plate over brass and they had a piece of plated brass soldered on the hoods. The plating was very heavy, by the time it wore through to the brass you forgot where you got it.

"Modded 729 here & HEV tutorial here. " Thanks! J3

quote = Interesting stuff, I'm going to respond more thoroughly in a bit, but here's a pic of the helium valve of the watch linked to by cskent, certainly night-and-day compared to the MBW stock engraved He valve: /quote I have a 5514/comex like 'Paul' sold about 3 years ago with a working escape valve and it has the '729' caseback that you still see now and then. The problem was that it did not have an inner bezel (the one that clamps the crystal to the case) and the rotating bezel was just pressed over the crystal. A genuine or aftmkt tropic 19 crystal fits the case just fine but since the watch did not have an inner bezel, I cemented the bezel to the case. I could have made an inner bezel and modified the rotating bezel but did not take the time to do it. He still shows the same watch for sale but it may have changed by now: http://www.pam111.com/product_info.php?cPa...;products_id=43 Since most cases only need the crown guards modified and a few details sorted out (case tubes, crowns, crystals etc), it looks to me like a '729' etc case would be a lot less $$ than a $600 or $700 case. A friend had the same watch and iirc it had the proper bezel setup. Since the escape valve and leaf spring come in the '729' cases, you could find a case that suited you better and bore the case out to accept the valve and grind the inside out a bit for the leaf spring using the '729' case and valve for patterns. The escape valve hole is stepped (bigger close to the outside) but this can be worked out using a small mill bit. Since an O ring seals the valve against the step in the case, maybe the larger od part of the hole would be OK without finishing the step to a flat ledge. The work would have to be done in a milling machine or precision drill press with the case clamped solid to the table. You will need a lathe to make the valve and modify any round parts. As far as this goes, someone could make escape valves and bore cases for a lot less than the high $$ cases sell for. All you need are samples to make the parts from and cases that are close to spec. If someone (not me!) wanted to do this, a Sherline lathe with a milling machine (or Sherline lathe plus a milling machine frame and use the lathe motor on the milling machine). The milling machine will do the job and cost less $$ than a couple $700 cases would cost. Someone (not me!) could modify the cases and make the valves for maybe $100 a shot and pay for the machines in a short time. The leaf spring can be made out of a section of small clock mainspring etc and the valve can be made out of a small stainless steel nail or wire stock. The O rings would be easy to get from a watch material supply house. The hardest thing is cutting the stepped hole in the case and making cutter bits for the lathe. http://www.sherline.com/ As for the rolex 1570 fitting an eta case, I would not use a genuine movement in a fake case...it takes the fun out of it and defeats the purpose. I would just use a 21600 bph eta in it.

Imho, the swiss better be running for cover. The last time something this big came to pass...quartz watches took them to their knees. Japan brands have little to lose because much of their production has been in China for years and Seiko (for example) only makes their higher priced low production watches in Japan now. The swiss however, have a problem...much of their cases, dials, bracelets etc already come from China but they choose to lie about it and keep lowering the "swiss made" standard so that all it takes now to be "swiss made" is a complete Chinese/Japanese etc watch with a couple over priced swiss parts added and the movement stuck in the case and timed in switzerland. Zodiac with a Claro Semag CL888 for example. A good pic and some info on TZ... http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg...0&rid=65913 The only thing swiss watches have to brag about today is the "swiss made" movement while every day the Chinese are creeping up on them, making higher quality movements... China probably already makes most of the "swiss" cases, bracelets, and dials anyway. Then the geniuses at swatch decided to cut off a big chunk of the eta movement supply. When they announced it a few years ago...panic! Exactly what they wanted. Since then, a few other brands have gone online with movements...and the the panic is turning into a yawn. Not what swatch expected, they were looking forward to selling more eta powered omegas, longines, midos, tissots, etc...after all, they are "swiss made". As soon as Sellita (swiss), Sea Gull (China) and a few others go into full production with high quality movements...the eta shortage will be forgotten. (the key words are 'high quality') They have until 2011 before swatch closes the door and by then the other movement makers should have the bugs worked out. The catch (as I see it) is if the Chinese try to charge eta prices for low quality movements...they may look like an eta but they have to perform like an eta to make it. The Venus 175 clone proves the Chinese can make a cheap chronograph that is pretty good and their $900 tourbys prove that the swiss are getting rich by charging $25K to $500K for basically the same thing. Take a China tourby movement, slick the movement up, and stick it in a gold case and Blammo!...same as swiss except for the price and brand name. Another catch...the Chinese have no brand recognition so they will have to prove themselves by making quality watches with quality movements at reasonable prices. This will not be easy. Otoh...a $1000 totally reliable mechanical chronographs and a $3000 totally reliable mechanical tourbillion will put them on the map. Look how far they have gone with what they are offering. This is their chance to stomp the swiss if they do not screw it up. One thing for sure...they will have to get the dirt and hair out of their movements! Time will tell...

quote = I got a noob or begin mariner yesterday, and it has the miyota copy in it, not the DG 2813. The pictures on the site show the Miyota, so I missed it. I noticed that the second hand is a little jerky compared to the DG, which is supposedly 28.8k, I don't know about that, the 2813 is supposed to be 21.6. I guess the dealers dont advertise it with 28.8 anymore though either. Whatever is in this noob sucks compared to whatever the old movement was. Two of them sitting side by side and I see a huge difference. I can actually count the number of "ticks" per second, 4, and the DG I can't tell if I'm seeing 6 or 8. Way smoother. The heck with the white lie about beats per hour, I want the old movement back! BTW, the movement is silver in color and has NN stamped under the balance wheel. /quote The DG/CH 2813 is a Miyota copy. A Miyota look alike with NN = Nanning 38. The Miyota clones I have seen...DG/CH 2813, NN 38 etc were 21,600 bph. I have seen them with "Swiss Made 25 jewels", "7 Jewels China" and "21 jewels China" on them...all were the exact same movement. Imho a good or bad movement of this type usually depends on dirt in the movement, dry jewels etc vs clean and properly lubricated. I have had a lot or trouble with these movements. I have had much better luck with the Seagull ST 16. It looks a lot like the other two except it has a version of Seiko's "Magic Lever" in place of a reverser etc. I have some ST 16 movements from 5 or 6 years ago with "Pusan Co. S. Korea, 18 jewels unadjusted" on them. I read somewhere that they had a factory in South Korea. The stuttering second hand is a common problem with these movements. It is caused by the tension spring rubbing the sweep second pinion not having enough tension. This allows the second hand to miss a beat now and then. It does not harm anything at all, it is just distracting. To check for this problem, hold the watch vertically and the second hand should track perfectly while the long heavy end of the second hand is moving 'uphill' and sometimes skip when the long end moves 'downhill'. Be warned that if you take the top plate off a DG/CH 2813 etc to bend the tension spring a little to provide more friction...all the train wheels, reverser etc are under this one plate. They can be a real hassle to put back together. The ST 16 is not as bad. All you have to do is remove the winding rotor and the plate over the "Magic Lever" to get to the tension spring. You need to be very careful and put the "wishbone" winding fork back right though. Good luck! J3

quote = I am getting into the SSD more and more. I want a custom crystal without that "crown" at 6 /quote Some of the first crystals with the 'clown crown' at 6 had a printed crown that could be removed. I do not know about all the various later models though. I have one of the 'perfect eta subs' from Paul from about a year ago and it does have an etched 'clown crown' on it. I put it under a 20x microscope and the etched dots appear to be rough cut but they look OK under regular 5x or 10x magnification. The crystal is sapphire as I gave it the old 'screwdriver test'. (it was already chipped) For some crazy reason they made the crystal an odd ball size so a standard DJ/submariner crystal would not fit although it is made in the same manner as a genuine sapphire crystal with a stepped down gasket ledge etc. The genuine crystal is 2.0mm thick, 30.4mm outer diameter with a 29.5mm diameter gasket ledge. The 'perfect submariner' crystal is 2.0mm thick, 30.45mm outer diameter with a 29.0mm gasket ledge. The gasket ledge is the problem as a genuine spec crystal and gasket will not work.

Wow! A genuine relax with blue dial and bezel on a silver colored watch! A guy gave me a few replicas like this and they looked so goofy that I hid them away. ...except for a couple that I gave to kids. I guess I need to dig 'em out because they are In-Style-Now!

From TZ-UK... Here is a comparison of the swiss eta 2824 and ST24 (2824 clone) plus some notes about the ST26 (2892 clone). This fellow does a pretty good job. Maybe ZZ can get his hands on a couple of these and do a comparo too. Looks like the easiest way to tell a China 2824 clone from a swiss eta 2824 is the spokes on the balance wheel. There should be an easy way to tell the China 2892 clone from the swiss 2892 after this fellow gets all the 2892 clone and swiss 2892 pics posted. http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f...p;sk=t&sd=a

I looked at catalogs from the same USA supply house from June 2003 until March 2008 and the prices of a few items have really gone up lately. The items are: Steel and 14K Italy made 20mm jubilee bracelets in regular center link and heavy center link versions. (22 links with hoods) note: cheaper bracelets can be found but some are lower karat that advertised and/or shoddy quality Solid 18K yellow gold Italy made die struck fluted DJ bezel. note: these bezels are identical to genuine in weight, size, etc Eta 2824-2, Eta 2892-A2, Valjoux/Eta 7750 with date at 3 o'clock (all movements swiss made and assembled) Here are the prices: SS/14K regular center link jubilee bracelet 6-03...$275 4-04...$299 11-05...$299 12-06...$359 11-07...$459 3-08...$529 SS/14K with heavy center links 6-03...$349 4-04...$299 11-05...$389 12-06...$399 11-07...$529 3-08...$619 18K Italy fluted die struck DJ bezel 6-03...$179 4-04...$199 11-05...$199 12-06...$199 11-07...$399 3-08...$479 Eta movements priced in order: 2824, 2892, 7750 6-03...$55, $99, $289 4-04...$79, $99, $289 11-05...$75, $175, $289 12-06...$75, $175, $289 6-07...$99, $149, $399 (first big price increase, same prices on 11-07) 3-08...$159, $199 (if available), $429 (if available) Odds and ends: note: all priced on 7-07 Eta 6497-1...$79 Eta 2893-1 with 24h disc...$175 Eta 251.272 quartz chronograph movement...$49.95 to $69.95 depending on date/day date etc (used in high priced swiss brands) China CH2812 with date at 3...$11.95 each or $9.95 each if you buy three CH2813 with date at 3 and day of week at 12...$13.95 each or $11.95 each for three CH2198 day, date, 24h on subdials...$4,95 Seagull ST6...$12.95 each or $10.95 each for three CH2189 gold tone skeleton...$19.95 Seiko 5M43 Kinetic...$69 CH1813 (Eta 2671 clone)...$27.95

Marathon "CCG/SAR", one of my all time favorites. http://www.broadarrow.net/ccg.htm

quote = I have been on both shipping and receiving sides where a watch just never showed up. No box - nothing. Both were international shipments one from Canada to England and one from Europe to Canada. I do not think that insurance can be purchased for a rep as insurance requires complete and full disclosure and in most jurisdictions replicas are not legal. However, I am not certain of this. As to whether loss is a problem through shipping - I think it is a bigger problem than the shipping companies of which I include the post offices, FedEx, Purolater and UPS want us to know about. Where there are people handling shipped goods there will be theft. The declaration on the package whether listing a high or low price is the trigger. It is likely the labeling of the contents as "watch parts" or "watch" that draws the attention of the thief. Easy to pocket stuff and easy to sell on eBay later. I think that it is just a Numbers game and eventually we just experience a loss after a certain number of shipments. I chalk it up to the price of trading with far away places. It burns but I see no solution. /quote Concerning fedex and ups...iirc both have disclaimers about paying off on insurance for 'jewelry and watches'. They will allow (and encourage) the sender to buy insurance but if the item goes missing, they quote the obscure rule and do not pay at all or have a low limit that the sended does not know about. I think it's about $500. I could be wrong as it has been a few years since I used fedex or ups. I learned my lesson. A friend who lost a few items with ups and fedex told me UPS stands for: Usually (the) Package (is) Stolen ...and the fedex motto should be "When a package absolutely, positively has to be stolen overnight." He found one package on the roof above the front door. He called the carrier (ups or fedex) and they called back later and said the delivery guy heard a dog barking and did not want the dog to get the package. The dog must have signed for the package because the clerk said the delivery guy had a signature. ...or maybe the guy was spending the day on the roof and forgot about it. I won't mention DHL because I get madder than H... For items shipped in the USA...USPS Registered Mail may be a little better as they might try to recover the item and might pay a claim but I do not know because everything I sent made it. I noticed when I sent a package by Registered Mail last week that a big sign on the wall said the $9.50 registered mail charge (plus postage!) "Includes insurance up to $25,000" When I asked the clerk about it she told me NO insurance was included but it could be purchased. I asked about the statement on the wall and she gave me the famous USPS '1000 mile stare'. They always require a value to be written on the invoice though...insurance or no insurance...but you have to pay extra to get the insurance they say goes with it! On the receipt it says "Customer Must Declare Full Value" and has a box for the amount. It also plainly says: "Domestic Insurance up to $25,000 included in the fee." Anyone with walking around sense would assume the $9.50 Registered Mail fee WAS the fee...but NO! according to the clerk and the declaration on back of the receipt. It also says on the front: "International Indemnity is limited." ...yeah, to $zero probably. On the back of the receipt is a few hundred words making it a total mystery. Bottom line: You are on your own, it's a gamble. Do not count on the carrier's insurance to pay. The people I know who ship high value goods use a third party insurer they can trust.

quote = As someone thats worked on genuine OEM stuff vs aftermarket I would charge the same for rep vs gen because standards are poor for rep stuff meaning what should take a second could take either a second or 10 minutes or an hour. Things not built to precision mean much higher probability for failure. So you remove a hand and the whole stem comes out, yuck. And then as the watchsmith you're in a very hard position of how to replace an aftermarket part that you have no supply chain for. I'm warehousing spare parts for the movements in my watches just in case. Just my counterpoint to why pricing may be high and why most smiths don't want to work on reps. /quote Eta powered watches are usually no trouble to work on. China movement stuff is sometimes very hard to work on. I will not work on China movement watches except my own so I can junk it if I get mad at it. Some of the China movements are DOA when you get the watch...full of dirt, dry of oil, wet or rusty, incorrect assembly etc but you can not always blame the movement factory...many are damaged by the watch assembler.

quote = ...which are the rarest of the reps? Those very infrequently or never seen... /quote I think the 'rare' replica watch I have is rare because no one wanted it... A 38mm eta 2824-2 powered "Breguet" in a rose gold plated coin edge case with see through back and deployant buckle. With a fancy silver dial with date at 6. It was sent by mistake and I had to eat it. I wouldn't wear it to a dog fight.

quote = US member here... For many US members, their Home States law is going to be of the most interest. The federal government leaves many many things up to the states... It wouldn't suprise me to find that different US states = different laws re: reps. /quote A local flea market vendor (southern USA) got busted a few years back with about 50 dozen fake Oakley sunglasses for sale at an outside market. First, two fellows came by and looked at the glasses and asked how much they were. The vendor priced them and one fellow bought a pair. About an hour later the buyer and the other guy came back along with a Sheriff's Deputy and a warrant. He identified himself as an 'authorized' inspector for Oakley. (he was a private detective who drove around looking for fake Oakley sunglasses, the other guy was not identified) Here is more or less how it went down... Inspector "Do you want to do this the easy way or the hard way". Vendor "What is the easy way?" Inspector "Give us all the fake Oakley sunglasses you have here and we go see the Judge." Vendor "What is the hard way?" Inspector "We take everything you have here, go to your house and turn it upside down, then we go see the Judge." He did it the 'easy' way. note: The inspector's sidekick tried to take ALL the sunglasses...Oakley fakes and unbranded sunglasses. The vendor threatened to "Stomp his ass." and the guy walked away and stood at a distance. The inspector gathered up all the fake Oakleys displayed for sale and all the vendor had in his car. The inspector loaded the sunglasses in his car and the vendor was loaded in a police car, no search, no handcuffs, no nothing. They all went straight to the Courthouse and met with a Judge. Each one told their side of the story. The sidekick said nothing. The Judge had a stenographer take notes, put the vendor under $3000 cash bond, and set a Court date. The vendor and inspector showed up on the Court date. The vendor and inspector did not have lawyers. The Judge let them tell their stories, then asked the inspector what he thought an appropriate fine would be. The inspector got loud and said he wanted "$100 restitution!" for each pair of fake sunglasses because that was the average retail price of them and that was how much Oakley stood to lose. 50 x 12 x $100 = $60,000.00...Sixty Thousand Dollars!! The Judge would not go along with this at all. The Judge asked the inspector "Is it not true that you now have the sunglasses?" Inspector "Yes." Judge" Well you get the sunglasses and I get the $3000...case dismissed!" He put the vendor under two years probation. The vendor told me he listened to the inspector bragging to a couple 'Courthouse Junkies' outside the Courthouse about how many pairs of fake Oakleys he had at home and it sounded to him like the inspector might be selling them. The two years probation is past and I see the vendor now and then on street corners...selling fake Oakley sunglasses etc on a folding table. I have seen NASCAR, Disney, LV, Coach, Rolex etc inspectors and they all have about the same routine. You have to offer the fake items for sale and state a price. The inspector purchases the item to prove the vendor really intends to sell the item. The inspector has to obtain a warrant to have a legal claim to confiscate the fake merchandise. Some inspectors bluff vendors into giving up all the fake merchandise and go on their way. Disney and Rolex inspectors want money, blood, prison time, and your first born son. I have seen Rolex inspectors at big NAWCC shows and they are sometimes extremely aggressive...but I heard they take off when someone pulls a gun on them. There are 'Fake' Fake Inspectors too! They are all over flea markets etc in the summertime. Most dress like 'Country Club' types and ask if the vendor has any high end knockoffs etc. The vendor shows them something. Then the 'fake' fake inspector gets loud and aggressive and pulls out a fake ID of some sort and threatens to take the vendor to jail etc unless the vendor surrenders all the fake merchandise. The vendor caves in and gives up the merchandise. The 'fake' fake inspector takes off and sets up in another town selling the 'confiscated' merchandise.