PAMman

Sorry to hear of your health problems Neil. Hope you get well soon. Nothing else really matters, certainly not a handful of reps which are only a bit of fun after all. Take care and all the best of luck.

Put a solid SS B series caseback on it and you will have one of the nicest, most accurate reps with a genuine, unaltered Swiss movement. Sure the 'A' is slightly off and the crown is marginally too thin and the cannon pinion slightly recessed but these 'faults' are common to all unmodded reps. This watch with a solid B series caseback (or its 112 equivalent) is my choice all day long.

Bingo. The taller bezel is correct, but the real Pre-A's crowns weren't that high. Perhaps the the dials were further away from the crystal than the more contemporary models? I don't know the answer...

I don't agree that the pre-Vendome models (201A, 202A etc) had higher bezels than the current watches. In fact, the reverse is correct. The pre-Vendome cases were 'squarer' in side profile, that is, the corners sat higher but the bezel was, if anything slightly flatter than the later watches. Here is a very good link which illustrates the differences in the cases and it is clear that the 201A case has a bezel similar to the normal rep. If you doubt what I say check it out:

hxxp://www.paneristi.com/archives/casedifferences/index.html (Change xx to tt as usual)

I have normal reps, a Davidsen rep case, Jimmy Fu cases and F & G gens and I can confirm without doubt that the best case for a 201A replica is a normal mainstream rep. These have lugs which are too much rounded and corners that are too high for the current watches but are very close to the preVendome case. In fact my first rep Panerai 005 came with an accurately replicated 201A caseback which carried the number of Mr Yellow's genuine 201A. I would not be surprised if his watch was used as a pattern to manufacture the first generation of rep cases. Drill out the lugs of a normal rep case and use the proper two-screw arrangement and you will have as close a 201A replica case as possible.

This was the comment I was refering too...

What is the gen 127 an exception to? An exception with low crossbars? This was my confusion

The 127 is an exception because ALL rep 127s had the correct A.

Yes it is a sausage dial. I have read from other another members post that base sausage dials are becoming more and more rare.

Apparently the base sausage / painted dial is no longer being made, or so I have been told by a couple of dealers.

How does DSN's 2-screw strap attachment set-up work? Does it still use tubes in the strap?

...

Something about that sentence made me chuckle.

I hadn't noticed the A's until a few months ago - they are very noticable when you know what to look for, and are frustratingly easy to correct (in Illustrator, convert the text to a path and change the location of the horizontal bar. Not that difficult really when you look at the lengths rep makers go to!)

Totally agree - the frustration comes not from the degree of inaccuracy but the level of needlessness. This could be sorted in a heartbeat but it seem's to be a case of; 'the light's on but there's no-one at home'.

Just consider the extent of re-engineering that goes into trying to replicate the Panerai E and H series movements, which won't be visible on your wrist, while a couple of minutes work would correct the dial flaws.

I've been looking at this one with suspicion. What d'yall think?

hxxp://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42463&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Change xx to tt

Two good links for detail on the gen dial. Check out the 3 of the 5218/201A dial in the second link.

hxxp://www.paneristi.com/archives/PreA_Panerai/Pre_A_Panerai.html

hxxp://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/message/1204535906/For+no+other+reason+than+it%27s+the+3rd.....

Change the xx to tt

A great link for Tudor Sub fans and a good reference for modding or building your own rep.

hxxp://forumamontres.forumactif.com/revues-videos-photographies-fiches-pratiques-f2/tudor-submariner-t1013.htm

Post a better picture.

Looks gen but how do you expect to say with that thumbnail photo?

Exactly. From that photo it's anybody's guess.

100% rep, no question.

Hi,

i built this Tudor franken last year but the source for the correct case (its nothing like a Rolex sub case) that i used is no longer around but i believe they originated like all other quality cases from Vietnam.

Dial is from Thailand and hands from Classicwatchparts.

Its powered by a 2836 which has been made not to hack and has correct movement engravings. I will check around and let you know if i find something...

Actually i don't think i can call this a franken coz nothing on it is gen... oh apart from the crown. Does that count then?

P.

If anyone can source that dial from Thailand I am ceryainly interested.

How close does beadblasting look to a brushed finish? Anyone have any pics of a beadblasted case? Thanks, Wan

Both are satin finishes but beadblasting doesn't have any brushmarks. A beadblasted treatment is the normal finish on a Ti case so the SS beadblasted will look like Ti but the metal is simply not as dark. Personally I don't like brushed PAMs but I have seriously considered beadblasting as an option.

Looks really classy. IMO this the nicest of the subs but is the plain bezel watch still available from any of our dealers?

I'm fairly new to the Reps area but I've been modding watches and building Franken-watches for a while.

My next project is to build a Tudor Submariner that I hope will come out something like this one

I've sourced the bezel & insert plus the hands, I've got a gen Tropic crystal for it and I'm doing the dial myself.

What I'd like are your recommendations for the best source watch to provide the case, with drilled lugs, good basic shape and - most important - the ability to accept a gen crystal and bezel, a good rehaut - nice and thick and fairly vertical, plus the movement (can be 2836 or 2824, but must be Swiss ETA)

Until now I've been using the Sandoz as donor for Sub style projects, but thanks to this place I now have a much bigger choice.

So, where would you start?

Thanks guys

I am no Rolex expert, but I understand that the MBW case is the only one that will accept the genuine parts. If that's correct then you don't have many options. However, I am intrigued by your comment 'I'm doing the dial myself'. I am a Tudor fan, particularly of this 'military' dial, and if you have any capacity to accurately reproduce these dials I am certainly interested.

I assume a limited run dial (100 pieces) will obviously cost more than a regular rep dial. However, never having bought a regular rep dial, I don't even know what they cost. I agree that I don't mind spending more for quality. I was just looking for a ballpark figure so I would know how many of these dials I could afford to purchase. Maybe someone with experience with one of these types of projects could help me ballpark the cost. Are we talking:

1) Under $100

2) Between $100 - $200

3) More than $200

If there are still too many variables, I understand.

Thanks

There are too many variables to be confident of price at this stage and is largely dependent on how many we can use / sell to members.

My enquiries with one of our dealers, who wasn't interested in getting involved anyway, was that a dial maker normally produces a minimum run of 100 dials and wouldn't be interested in anything smaller. However, it would seem that 100 dials would be considered 'normal' and shouldn't really carry any excess surcharge based on quantity. For what it's worth I have been able to buy a couple of regular painted 111 dials for $20 each plus shipping etc.

It's very difficult to equate this cost to 'our' project as it will require initial setting-up costs and samples / corrections / more samples / more corrections etc which will all have to be paid for in the final run. One of the problems would obviously be that as soon as I took delivery of 100 dials to pass on to forum members all of our dealers may also be offering watches complete with 'our' dial at no additional cost. In that senario I would be left with a batch of dials that few people would want any more.

I have also discussed this project with an EU based dial maker who, at this stage, seems surprisingly unconcerned about producing a rep dial and while I would feel more confident about my own involvement in the setting-up and quality control process, because of accessibility etc, I have some concerns about overall quality levels. However the whole communication and cost issue would be more transparent this way and 'our' dial would not be available outside of 'our' network.

It's too soon to even know with any confidence what 100 dials would cost and the individual cost per dial to each of us would have to be the total project cost divided by the number sold - sell only 50 dials and each will cost twice as much - sell only 25 = 4X etc.

So, to answer the question, I really don't know how the cost would end up, but being realistic probably in the $100 - 150 region when everything is taken into account.

This is not something I am suggesting from any angle of making a profit. In fact it isn't something I want to do at all. You may have read my responses to Davidsen's thread on his 5218/201A dial and I would far rather that he would take on board all of the input that was offered and for him to produce totally accurate dials. I feel somewhat aggrieved by all those who kept posting encouraging remarks on his thread, telling him that his dial was great when it was still far from perfect. Obviously as soon as he was getting plenty of favourable comments he didn't feel any need to go further despite the fact that he is best placed to get these totally right. Please compare the feedback that Davidsen got to the 5218/201A dail and the feedback on the Cousteau Diver dial. In the case of the Cousteau , which is much more complicated, the feedback was brutally critical and we have ended up with something good. Davidsen gets plenty of thanks and praise for churning out even more inaccurate tat when we could be brutally honest and get an improvement. At the end of the day the most accurate handwind Panerai dial is still the regular painted 002 / 112 and I think it may even be out of production now.

How can you ever get a 100% accurate Tritium paint dial? Surely it'll only be fairly accurate as the lume would be a give-away. If it's not self-powered and diminished in the right amount for the age and Tritium's 12-year half-life, it's never going to pass scrutineering.

OK, OK, I thought I was anal. The aim here is to create a dial (and consequently complete watches) which WE are happy to live with, not to pass them off or resell them as genuine. I have a genuine tritium dial Panerai and an unused 003 T dial. Both of them have still some self-generating 'light' in them. In other words, if I open my watch box, in a dark room, for the first time in a week or more, the T dial will glow faintly and my gen 005 can't be seen. However, if I expose both watches to 30 secs of intense light the 005 glows like a mad thing for a couple of minutes then calms down and will remain visible all night. On the other hand the T dial will be much brighter initially and gradually tail off to its normal faint glow.

I accept that without tritium we cannot totally replicate the lume performance of a T dial and there are few alternatives. One would be to match the patinated tritium colour in Luminova which naturally reduces the Luminova performance anyway and have a decent lume standard. A second option would be to just match the patinated tritium colour in regular paint which will not be true to an A series T dial today (2001) but will probably be fairly accurate in another 5 years time. The third option would be to match the tritium colour in a luminous material similar to the normal reps, which will be poor to start with, but in another 5 years time will likely end up in a similar place as a genuine T dial i.e. dead.

On a personal level I would be happy with any of the above solutions, providing the dial print & finish quality, together with accuracy of font and layout matched the A series dials. Given this choice of lume methods I would personally go for the third option which would have the correct appearance during daylight and would give some level of luminosity. I fully accept that the dial would not be accepted as a genuine tritium dial by someone who kept the watch in the dark for 24 hours to test it, but when are we ever going to allow any casual acquaintance to hang onto our watch for that long? I also take comfort from the thought that if I want to scam someone I will have 24 hours to escape before he finds out.

I choose the white one (ETA) and I have no regrets. The standard AR is very good and, IMO, perfectly adequate for the white dial watch. However I have a blue 'Heritage' on its way as I like the blue version of it best. I have vistited 3 ADs and none of them have had any of the Heritage range yet and report 3 months of a waiting list.

Excellent photos of a great watch. This is one of the best reps and together with the GST Ti chrono and the 3717 makes a great IWC hat-trick.

Great stuff everyone. I'm really learning a lot from reading all of your posts.

I've searched for Jimmy Fu on ebay (jimmfzfu) and I didn't get anything. Do any of you guys know where I can find some of the parts he produced? Thanks.

You have spelt it wrong. Should be jimmyzfu. However he only has blue & gold hands left AFAIK.

To you too PAMman. A sincere, thank you! You guys have been a great help. Now I think I know where to go and how to get it done. I think I'm going to DavidSen or Angus for a PAM002B, if either have them. By the way, what's the B designate? Thanks again to all of you who've contributed.

DSN uses a different case from the normal reps and therefore many parts are not interchangable e.g. his dials are a different size and CGs can't be swapped. Normal reps accept Jimmy Fu parts, Palp crowns and gen dials but DSN's won't.

Argh. You went exactly on the hardest way. If you want a very accurate rep, both PVD and display back are a call for troubles.

What would you prefer, an advice about the best you can take out from what you have there, or hints to a pretty accurate PAM rep?

I have just posted the following on Ztech's new thread on the assumption that he wanted the simplest way to get the most accurate based on mainstream, readily available rep parts. Nearly all Panerai reps have dial issues so I favour the one with the least occurrances. I also favour unmodified Swiss movements so I'm narrowing the field but I'm ending up where many Paneristi want to be.

"I suppose that the best start is to get any gen parts that you can, then whichever Jimmy Fu parts you can find, a Palp crown if you haven't got a gen and add a Swiss 6497 behind a solid caseback. However, you may find the gen / JF / Palp bits very costly and difficult to source so then you are talking about normal rep parts. There is little difference between one rep SS case and the next - they are all pretty good and can be upgraded with the gen / JF bits later if they turn up. In my experience most rep hands are the same and they are OK. If you are going for a solid back watch the regular CG is correct only for the A - D series so that rules out the 000 & 005. The rep 001 / 111 or 002 / 112 dials are reasonably accurate except for the droopy As. That helps me to favour the 002 as there are only half as many incorrect As on it.

If you are going down this route you should find a dealer who can supply a 002B, get the best crown you can find and enjoy it. A relume may be nice but if you have lights in your house it's really not necessary. A standard 002B with a Palp crown is pretty good. The Palp crown will tighten any looseness in the CG lever when it's closed so will give you an opportunity to fine tune the standard CG."

I suppose that the best start is to get any gen parts that you can, then whichever Jimmy Fu parts you can find, a Palp crown if you haven't got a gen and add a Swiss 6497 behind a solid caseback. However, you may find the gen / JF / Palp bits very costly and difficult to source so then you are talking about normal rep parts. There is little difference between one rep SS case and the next - they are all pretty good and can be upgraded with the gen / JF bits later if they turn up. In my experience most rep hands are the same and they are OK. If you are going for a solid back watch the regular CG is correct only for the A - D series so that rules out the 000 & 005. The rep 001 / 111 or 002 / 112 dials are reasonably accurate except for the droopy As. That helps me to favour the 002 as there are only half as many incorrect As on it.

If you are going down this route you should find a dealer who can supply a 002B, get the best crown you can find and enjoy it. A relume may be nice but if you have lights in your house it's really not necessary. A standard 002B with a Palp crown is pretty good. The Palp crown will tighten any looseness in the CG lever when it's closed so will give you an opportunity to fine tune the standard CG.

A series would be better indeed... i have a B series caseback and it's quite high in the numbers... in that period B series PAM1 where made with L dials... not T dials... they changed from T to L some where during the B period. So low B series is good and all A series.

I personally prefer A series of course

There was an article recently on the subject of B series T dials and there appears to be no pattern of the T dial = low MM numbers and L = high as you would expect. They were all mixed up throughout the B series and even T-SWISS-T appeared in a few B series but not in the A.