PAMman

@PAMman: I suppose you mentioned the 027 rep dial just as an example of good print quality. Lacking the "sunken" power reserve gauge, I would actually feel it not so very accurate as a whole...

Yes, sorry I thought that I had made that distinction. I was simply commenting on the quality of the dial in terms of standards of finish. The rep doesn't have the sunken PR scale and has the droopy A so the accuracy isn't good but the finish is on a par with the gen.

I don't have a problem with Davidsen producing the dials providing someone can insist on 100% accuracy. I agree that his 010 dial was the best that he ever produced but he just seems to be too happy to simply provide a 'different' product rather than a better one. For example I have one of his PAM 116. The case is good, the caseback is thin and the engravings look cheap and nasty, the crown is quite good, the CG is totally wrong and poorly finished - nowhere nearly as good as normal reps, the dial is a joke and the movement is a stunning Swiss CdG decorated movement of the highest quality. As you may have guessed I bought this from another member simply for the movement then was pleasantly surprised by the case and replaced the caseback with a normal Ti caseback and will replace the dial soon. If I get a decent Ti CG then I will have a good watch but it won't be a typical Davidsen.

Well it looks like there are lots of people behind this and it would prove a popular seller, but what we need is a manufacter behind this, has anybody mailed our collectors in particular DSN?

DSN hasn't reproduced anything accurately so far, despite having access to manufacturing facilities. I want to take this to someone who has proved their willingness to fine tune their product until it's right. How can we access the dialmaker who produced the latest Aquatimer dial or the Omega Seamaster chrono for example? Which dealer is best at outsourcing this type of custom work?

This question is directed at the veterans who might know this, but what else would it take to make the "ultimate" rep?

1. PAM 001 T dial

What else? Is there a specific, case, movement, etc.?

Maybe we could have a dealer assemble an entire watch?

Normal rep SS case is fine,

Any Swiss or Asian 6497 (original Swiss ETA is correct)

Correct solid caseback (existing rep B series is OK but A series would be better)

Good thick crown

Normal rep CG is correct

If an accurate dial was assembled into a normal rep case with a good thick crown and the regular polished CG and the existing rep solid caseback then we would have the most accurate handwind rep.

If indeed we can commission a rep PAM that you can confidently wear anywhere, I'm definitely in!

I guess the next step is to 1.) find a trustworthy dealer who'll get the ball rolling 2.) get a list of those interested and collect the deposits.

So I'll start the list here....

Those who are interested in putting a 50% deposit for a PAM 001 T dial

1. Ztech

2. PAMman 6+

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

Please repost and add your name. You all know what to do.

DISCLAIMER!

Once you decide to get on the list and put down your deposit, there is no turning back. If you do, you loose your deposit.

I will by ANY panerai that has a correct dial. So if we can get one commissioned - i am IN. It is insane that the other reps on the board of Breits, IWC, etc are soooo good and these are so pathetic.

Totally agree. The complex dials are repped so well and the simplest dial is so poor. A base Panerai dial is less complex than an alarm clock.

In fairness to the Risti, similar to these forums, there is a core group of members with unbelievably good knowledge and then a whole lot of folks showing off their latest watch - myself included.

Yes, I agree and I suspect that 'core group' belong here too. The best way to spot a fake is to know what the rep looks like. Remember Finepics educating the 'Risti and them being so appreciative of his knowledge. Don't forget V's recent thread which is a fair indication of the extent of gen ownership on this board and those gen owners who are members here will also be members there. The names will be different but I think that that's a large section of your 'core group' which will also include the 'lurkers'. The tell-tale sign is the 'Risti who go ballistic about reps generally can't recognise them with any degree of accuracy, apart from the really dire Canal Street stuff. Those who are more knowlegable generally take a more balanced view.

I would be in for a couple, but if I have to choose a 001 with a T dial is my grail

The 001 T dial is good because the existing B series caseback matches the 001B which can have the T dial. Get a decent Palp crown and you really have a highly accurate and desirable rep that you could wear anywhere.

If we could possibly get enough "committed" memeber in on this, and find a trustworthy dealer, then maybe we could send deposits to get something like this moving. I would certainly buy several just to get "in" on a project like this.

PAMman, I get your point and will look to say a PAM005 as my next rep. Thanks for the advice.

Be careful with the 005 - the dial is especially poor as it has all the usual font faults plus a really badly shaped logo. Also the rep CG is the older A - F series style so incorrect for the 000 & 005 which are G series onwards.

As far a the dial project is concerned I don't really see how this cannot be done. However, I am in EU and I only speak English so we really need an Asian partner with links to the industry. Ideally we need to be able to contact a dial maker with a proven track record and be able to communicate with him to get across the message of how anal we are. Getting this type of project undertaken in Europe is difficult as anyone with the correct equipment is already linked to legit watch manufacturing industry, so won't want to get involved. Those who may be game to try won't have the correct gear to do the job.

Which of the dealers coordinated the recent rep manufacturing, based on feedback from the boards? Can anyone suggest a collector / dealer who would work with us and act as a conduit between us members and the dial manufacturer. As I previously mentioned, in my experience the best quality rep Panerai dial (in terms of detailed finish) is the 027 in my 2892 A2 version. If we could get that dial maker on board we would be set.

Thanks for the pictures as i am clearly seeing a big difference in the crown guard as well.

When it comes to matters of detail regarding Panerai I have no doubt that members of this board will have a more exact knowledge than any 'Risti, unless that 'Risti is also a rep WIS too. A couple of months ago most of them couldn't identify a really crude DSN rep as a fake. SHEEEESH

Thanks for the post PAMman. I appreciate your input. Opinions like yours is exactly what I was looking for. I don't know if you're familiar but I follow Ocean 7 closely and own their watch and have one on order. I love how the owner, Mitch, keeps everyon involved in the design and build phases. He is quite open about Chinese sourced parts and the fact what "Swiss made" really means. I think that if one person, with the right support, can form a successful new company, then why can't a group of comitted individuals commission an accurate rep.

I don't really see how this cannot be done. However, I am in EU and I only speak English so we really need an Asian partner with links to the industry. Ideally we need to be able to contact a dial maker with a proven track record and be able to communicate with him to get across the message of how anal we are.

I still have 10 of his dials and a set of his black hands (plus 2 complete unused / unassembled cases & 3 unused / unassembled crownguards) in addition to the ones that I have already used for myself. I have sold a few new, unused cases and CGs and 1 custom watch built from Jimmy's parts. I am very familiar with his stuff and apart from the case and caseback there is no Jimmy Fu parts in that watch.

His dials were not sandwich (his Ebay ad even stated that) and they all stated L SWISS L below the 6. He had 4 options for hands - black, blue, gold & silver. All were glossy and he never had matt black.

The post asked for verification of the authenticity of the Jimmy Fu parts and I think that there is sufficient experience here to provide that.

Actually, I have spoken to Jimmy and sent him the pictures, and he verified that the Case, Caseback, and the Crown Guard, Dial and Hands are his also The Crown is some thing he questioned, He thinks the Crown is thinner than what he produced.

Thank you all for you kind input or thoughts.

Someone is telling porkies somewhere. That's not one of Jimmy's dials - his were engraved and NOT sandwich. I have 10 of them so I know what I'm talking about. Also, he didn't have any crowns during my dealings with him and I have never heard of anyone ever having bought or having seen a JF crown. Seems hard to believe that 200 of his crowns would have disappeared without any of us having come across them, unless he sold them to a rep watchmaker. Maybe he had 200 of the sprung crowns made, because certainly sprung rep crowns exist in small numbers.

Definitely not his dial and 99% sure it's not his crownguard or hands as his hands are glossy black, not matt. I have some of those as well. There's a lot of BS attached to this watch.

Photos are of a 100% gen.

DSN is trying to get the T-Swiss-T engraved/lume filled dials right as we speak. Without huge success, unfortunately. The T Swiss T sausage dials are much easier to get right, thus, have a much higher chance of actually coming to fruition.

Agree totally. You may have noted my frustration at Davidsen's failure to EVEN attempt to correct the shape of the incorrect engraved numbers which ruin the whole project. The T SWISS T dial is not dependent on engraving thus reduces the manufacture to a one-step process which should be the key to success. Just think how simple this is in comparison to chronos with sunken subdials complete with concentric circles in a contrasting colour to the main dial, applied raised indices and 2-colour printing (Eg. Series Speciale Navitimer). This ought to be a 'walk in the park'.

If the dial is printed accurately then a hand lume in an aged tritium colour will complete the 3D effect.............SWEET.

I have 5:

Speedy Moon

Black SMP (full size auto)

Vintage SM300

Vintage (late '50s?) solid gold Seamaster

Dynamic date (80s)

If I could keep only 1 it would be the Speedy Pro, followed by the SMP. In fact they're probably listed in order of preference.

I wouldn't buy the gen PO as I think that they are too trendy / faddish and the SMP is altogether a nicer watch. Mind you I have an orange UPO which gets a reasonable amount of wrist time.

In order to flip the base dial you will need to remove the dial legs and use self adhesive 'dial dots' to fix the dial to the movement. Unless you can source a rep Destro CG your CG will either be back-to-front or upside down. The correct CG is repped but I can't recall which watch it's used on. Ask V - he knows and he sold one recently on the forum.

Reading through the various posts in this section there seems to be an insatiable appetite for an accurate Panerai rep. Oddly though, the rep community tends to favour the latest 111 / 112 H /J etc while the true 'Risti will seek out the 'T' dial watches and pay a significant premium for watches which were simpler (cheaper) to build originally and were arguably less well finished.

Particularly for Panerais, and to an extent any other watch, the best 'out of the box rep' or 'modded' rep will always be a watch with a closed caseback, absolutely no contest. The solid caseback can be repped with 100% accuracy easily while the movement can't. For example consider the casebacks for 201/A (incorrectly fitted to the original 005 rep), 001, 027, 029 etc and compare with the best of the movements visible through display backs. All of the solid casebacks that I've mentioned look totally accurate from the rear and have the bonus of unaltered Swiss movements inside. The best modified movement won't fool anyone and, in my view, has been compromised by the Asian modifications.

When we consider the level of accuracy that has been achieved with complicated dials such as the Tag Link chrono, various Omega & IWCs, Breitlings etc. an accurate copy of the plain and simple Panerai dial (001 / 002'T', 000, 005, etc) should be a penalty kick. We are talking about a straightforward print onto a flat brass disk. There is certainly the expertise within the rep industry to produce the goods so that's not the problem. Ideally I would like to find the manufacturer of the 027 rep dial as the quality of the finish is the best that I have seen and is every bit as good as the gen. I have the rep and my friend has the gen and trust me the rep is just as well printed. Some of the gen dials are nothing exceptional - for example the tobacco dial 116 is not as sharp as the similar 002. river sold the last of the 2892 A2 027s so he may be the best route back to the dial source in the first instance.

As a community can we not commission the production of a 100% accurate dial through one of our dealers? I would suggest the T SWISS T 001 or 002 dials for starters, then individually numbered matching casebacks as phase 2. We could underwrite the financing of the whole operation for a run of approx 100 items. If this is something that you would fully support please record your interest so that we can guage demand for an accurate 1A or 2A dial.

Particularly for Panerais, and to an extent any other watch, the best 'out of the box rep' or 'modded' rep will always be a watch with a closed caseback, absolutely no contest. The solid caseback can be repped 100% easily while the movement can't. For example consider the 201/A, 001, 027, 029 etc and compare with the best of the movements visible through display backs. All of the solid casebacks that I've mentioned look totally accurate from the rear and have the bonus of unaltered Swiss movements inside. The best modified movement won't fool anyone and, in my view, has been compromised by the Asian modifications.

When we consider the level of accuracy that has been achieved with complicated dials such as the Tag Link chrono, various Omega & IWCs, Breitlings etc. an accurate copy of the plain and simple Panerai dial (001 / 002'T', 000, 005, etc) should be a penalty kick. There is certainly the expertise within the rep industry to produce the goods so that's not the problem.

As a community can we not commission the production of a 100% accurate dial through one of our dealers? I would suggest the T SWISS T 001 or 002 dials for starters, then individually numbered matching casebacks as phase 2. We could underwrite the financing of the whole operation for a run of approx 100 items. I'm going to post this in a new thread to guage support.

Sounds like the rep PVD cases are pretty bad. Too bad I can't find a version of this watch with a SS case.

Have you tried asking Joshua to assemble one in a SS case instead of PVD? It's worth a try. Alternatively buy the PVD and send it to ajoesmith to get sandblasted and PVD'd properly. Then you will have a good piece.

How Can I reach to Jımmy? Has he web site (sizzling watches???)

Don't know if he has a website but he does deal in watches as a hobby. He can be found on Ebay as jimmfzfu. The only Panerai fit parts that he has are hour & minute hands.

Asad , I don't think that's a Jimmy CG , the ones I have are finished to a much better standard and don't have the gaps where the lever sits in the guard.

Also- the "shoulders" of the guard are shorter on a JF CG - making the distance between case - crown - CG more aesthetically correct to the original.

It may be the photos - but I wouldn't personally accept that as a JF CG.

Good luck

FGD

I didn't want to start any argument about the validity of the sellers claims when I couldn't personally examine the watch but I fully agree with the doubts expressed. If the CG lever feels better / tighter than a normal rep CG I suspect that this is a CG from the latest run of 027 similar to the few that River offered late last year. I bought one of those and the quality of the CG was a major step up from any other rep that I previously bought but the auto does have the larger cut out in the bridge to accomodate the 3-position crown. My guess is that it's one of those as nothing else could hope to pass off as a JF.

I dealt with Jimmy Fu for a considerable time until he sold all of his parts. During my dealings with him he had complete cases, including crystals and display casebacks, crownguards, all seals / gaskets, dials and hands but NO crowns. He had only 200 of each part copied from his own PAM 001D and he originally intended to produce his own limited edition of a sterile Panerai style watch. However, Panerai's successful action against Ken Trading in respect of the RXW Marina Militaire persuaded him that this would only lead to a whole heap of trouble and his timing coincided with the general production and availability of 'our' Panerai reps which are despised by the Paneristi community. As Jimmy is a prominent and respected collector in his own right he decided to sell his parts as 'aftermarket' spares on Ebay, with the appropriate caution about invalidating your warranty etc. It is no coincidence that, in the midst of all the outrage about reps, you will never have seen any condemnation of Jimmy's parts on the 'Risti forum and I recall one member selling a Jimmy CG on the accessories section of Paneristi without any trouble. In fact he listed it a number of times without any interest and eventually offered it free to anyone who had a use for it.

Looks asian to me even in his photos. The Zigmeister has given the thumbs up on the asian movement and many others are saying they are good as well. No 100% swiss movement has these bridges outside of Panerai. Even if the movement started Swiss it would now be full of asian parts.

I'm not suggesting that the Asian movement is bad, but I have had 2 and both had loose screws in the winding gears. When I tried to tighten them they seemed to be a loose fit on their threads and would likely loosen again unless 'loctited'. Actually I broke the head off one screw when I was tightening it and the shaft was so loose than I was able to coax it back out without much trouble.

This watch better damn well not have an Asian movement in it, I paid alot for it and it was sold to me as a "Swiss ETA" movement.

So can you guys tell me if this is the asian or the swiss, if its not the Swiss, me and Andrew are going to have some issues beyond this.

The normal Swiss ETA doesn't use this shock protection system in my experience. Check for the ETA shield which should be stamped on the base plate under the escape wheel. Whether it is based on the ETA or not the Panerai style bridges and sunburst wheels are Asian anyhow.

From the photos it would appear that this is an Asain 6497 and in my limited experience with this movement this is a very common fault. If the screw and gear are still there (and unless you have removed the caseback they must be) then it is a simple job to replace the gear wheel on its square shaft and replace the screw. However, to prevent a repeat of this a spot of jewellers 'loctite' is needed and it would be advisable to do both gear wheels at the same time. This is a DIY job for all but the most hamfisted so shouldn't cost too much at a watchsmiths.

BTW, this was causing the 'popping' all along because the small wheel was disengaging and riding over the top of the larger when you were winding. If you wound the watch 'face down' it would have wound normally as gravity would have held the gears in line with each other. I think that there is an inherent design fault with this movement, partly caused by the exaggerated bevel on the gear wheels which reduces the width of the mating surfaces and encourages one to ride onto the top of the other. Just my 2 cents worth.