chris5264 Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Interesting, I think I am following this post. There is nothing actually wrong with the pallet being a [censored] as opposed to a bridge; this is just a good way to easily identify this movement. The real problem is how the hairspring is attached, which does look like a serious mod. Is there any reason you couldn’t just replace the entire balance assembly using another from a different movement? While this may not be good solution for everyone, I have an extra from a movement with other problems so it would work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Ziggy, So the concensus is: #1 These are NOT ETA Swiss movts? Well, the mainplate MAY? have been a Swiss 6497-1 at some time, but as you noted, why is there so many differences between this model, and a genuine ETA 6497-1??? The "ETA" mark is not identical to the Swiss one, a bit different, and not as crisp and clear... So in my opinion, not Swiss, certainly the balance wheel is NOT Swiss... #2 Even if they are working they are timebombs destined to fail anytime? Maybe yes, maybe no... I can't really tell...so far, 4 out of 4 models have the problem...so the odds are that it will fail at some point. #3 Should be serviced or replaced even if working OK out of box? If it's working fine, I would leave it alone. No need for attention if it's not broken... Of all the movements I service, this is the first time I have noted a problem on the balance wheel with a bad hairspring... I am not sure if the ETA Balance and Hairspring would fit on this model or not, it is a 18,000 Beat model so the ETA may(??) fit... Thank you for your most informative comprehensive post. Your welcome, glad you got something out of it... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Interesting, I think I am following this post. There is nothing actually wrong with the pallet being a [censored] as opposed to a bridge; this is just a good way to easily identify this movement. The real problem is how the hairspring is attached, which does look like a serious mod. Is there any reason you couldn’t just replace the entire balance assembly using another from a different movement? While this may not be good solution for everyone, I have an extra from a movement with other problems so it would work for me. Exactly correct, the pallet [censored] is not the problem, only the way you identify this model... The one and only problem, is that the hairspring is attached crooked, and touches the balance [censored]. I have not tried a new balance yet, and I don't have a movement in house to test it on...it's the same speed as the ETA 6497-1, at 18,000 BPH...so maybe the ETA balance will fit directly... Replacing the balance requires the same first steps as shown here, i.e. the balance and hairspring have to be disconnected from the balance [censored] and the new one secured in place...not for beginners... Thanks for clearing up the apparent confusion on the pallet [censored], vs balance hairspring... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olreon Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Exactly correct, the pallet [censored] is not the problem, only the way you identify this model... The one and only problem, is that the hairspring is attached crooked, and touches the balance [censored]. I have not tried a new balance yet, and I don't have a movement in house to test it on...it's the same speed as the ETA 6497-1, at 18,000 BPH...so maybe the ETA balance will fit directly... Replacing the balance requires the same first steps as shown here, i.e. the balance and hairspring have to be disconnected from the balance [censored] and the new one secured in place...not for beginners... Thanks for clearing up the apparent confusion on the pallet [censored], vs balance hairspring... RG hello, when i recognized that i have problems with mine i tested if another balance with [censored] will work on it. i just swapped it from another swiss 6497, the one with the old plates like in the pam036. and it worked fine without any problems normaly this would be ok, but the black seal has a crystal-caseback and it´s boring me that the balance stud doesn´t have the same engraving as the whole movement. best wishes olreon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelamore Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Ziggy I hate to keep harping on this but is there a chance that some hairsprings on this model are attached correctly and will be fine..or is it the balance [censored] design that causes the hairspring to be crooked when installed at the factory and they are all doomed? I know you haven't sampled many yet , but I take it you have never seen one level and correct as of this date, right? I'm trying to understand if the failure happens over time like Finepics' theory suggested , or the fault exists out of the factory on all and is so close to the [censored] that the slighest jar will push it rubbing.. Thanks, Gil The three I have seen were defective as built, this is not a problem that occures over time, or due to wear, it's an assembly defect when they put the hairspring onto the balance wheel. It exists out of the factory, and why your seeing it cause a problem later on, could be just due to the hairspring almost touching the balance [censored], and then shifting a little bit, and touching from as you say a slight jar or whatever... It would take years for the balance wheel pivots to wear down, and even if they did, were talking about a crooked hairspring in these watches...if the hairspring was paralell as it should be, it would never ever touch the balance [censored], even if the balance pivots wore down to nothing... So far, of the three I have worked on, all three were defective, some worse than others...but defective nonetheless... If you have one of these, and it works good, then leave it alone...it may always work fine...who knows... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 hello, when i recognized that i have problems with mine i tested if another balance with [censored] will work on it. i just swapped it from another swiss 6497, the one with the old plates like in the pam036. and it worked fine without any problems normaly this would be ok, but the black seal has a crystal-caseback and it´s boring me that the balance stud doesn´t have the same engraving as the whole movement. best wishes olreon Excellent news, so that means that the ETA balance wheel can be installed on the new [censored] and fix the problem for good... Thanks for this... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Excellent and thorough review as usual, Rob! I'm curious about one thing: When you say there is aproblem version and a non-problem version, does this mean they're slapping the deocrated bridges and swans necks on genuine ETA movements and on some sort of Chinese copy or that both of the versions are copies and one is just better consructed? If some are ETA and some are copies, that's a pretty disturbing development--probably not even our dealers would be able to guarantee which one is used in the watch that gets shipped. If both versions are copies, at least we can hope that the "bad" ones represent an early attempt that has been replaced by a new, better generation represented by the "good" example. Either way, I wish they would at least decorae the damn bridges accurately... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olreon Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 hello, this is realy getting mysterious. i own one of these new bad 6497´s and another is on the way. i have reassembled the movement and took a closer look at the gears and the finish of the movement. i compared it to the other gen swiss 6497´s and to a asian 6497 i own. the finish of the gears and the whole movement is equal to the gen swiss 6497 but as ziggy said, there are some differences in the main plate of the movement, screws for the dialpins, etc. the next thing i recogniced is that the design of the balance of these 3 movements is different. but the genuine, bad and asia have the same design take a look at the pics and you will see. genuine eta, genuine eta panerai, genuine eta (best version available, i think) bad new eta asian eta for me the balance of the bad is closer to the genuine than to the asian. i have compared them and saw that the bad new eta balance has a different gold colour (similar to the gen) than the asian. but you can also see that there are differences between the genuine balances but who knows, i think the only ones who can clear this are the dealers. they have to talk to the makers! best wishes olreon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 (edited) Excellent and thorough review as usual, Rob! I'm curious about one thing: When you say there is aproblem version and a non-problem version, does this mean they're slapping the deocrated bridges and swans necks on genuine ETA movements and on some sort of Chinese copy or that both of the versions are copies and one is just better consructed? If some are ETA and some are copies, that's a pretty disturbing development--probably not even our dealers would be able to guarantee which one is used in the watch that gets shipped. If both versions are copies, at least we can hope that the "bad" ones represent an early attempt that has been replaced by a new, better generation represented by the "good" example. Either way, I wish they would at least decorae the damn bridges accurately... There is only one version of this particular model as far as I have seen... If you have a 6497-1 with this type of pallet attachment [censored]...Then you have the one and only bad movement. All the movements I have seen, with this type of pallet [censored] assembly have had bent hairsprings. Any movement that looks like this is a BAD one (from what I have seen first hand)... My reference was to all "other" variants of the 6497-1, both Swiss and Asian, with a NORMAL Pallet Bridge - as shown here. Any movement that looks like this, is OK and NOT a problem RG Edited September 7, 2006 by ziggyzumba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 I am still convinced that the mainplate is definitely ETA - the engine turned finish on the dial side and overall appearance visually (colour as well) looks exactly like the older defnite ETA's. If the chinese were making the whole thing then one has to ask why on earth would they change the pallet to a [censored] from a bridge - it would seem totall unecessary and expensive since they are already making the correct shaped pallet bridge in the asian 6497.So what I think is this - they have for some reason got in ETA movts that have different markings and the pallet [censored]. The asians in a further attempt to make it more like the gen have, as well as making the familiar dowel pegged bridge plates (another ETA tell), used some of the other asian components to make a hybrid. In fact it might be that the mainplate is the only part sourced from ETA. This would be a shame as the ETA gears are much better cut and I have recently seen cases of the asian 6497 centre wheel coming apart. So if they are using asian gears this would also explain the different sized centre wheel bearing - certainly smaller than standard ETA. I also noted that the gold finish of the going train is not the matted brass like ETA but much more shiny like the asian 6497 and rougher looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Your probably right on Finepics... If that is the case, these must be very old movements that the mainplates are coming from...given the pallet [censored], and the fact that the dial attachment is like it was on old pocket watch movements years ago... So maybe these mainplates are from pocketwatches from the 40's or older??? The mystery deepens... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelamore Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 I am still convinced that the mainplate is definitely ETA - the engine turned finish on the dial side and overall appearance visually (colour as well) looks exactly like the older defnite ETA's. If the chinese were making the whole thing then one has to ask why on earth would they change the pallet to a [censored] from a bridge - it would seem totall unecessary and expensive since they are already making the correct shaped pallet bridge in the asian 6497.So what I think is this - they have for some reason got in ETA movts that have different markings and the pallet [censored]. The asians in a further attempt to make it more like the gen have, as well as making the familiar dowel pegged bridge plates (another ETA tell), used some of the other asian components to make a hybrid. In fact it might be that the mainplate is the only part sourced from ETA. This would be a shame as the ETA gears are much better cut and I have recently seen cases of the asian 6497 centre wheel coming apart. So if they are using asian gears this would also explain the different sized centre wheel bearing - certainly smaller than standard ETA. I also noted that the gold finish of the going train is not the matted brass like ETA but much more shiny like the asian 6497 and rougher looking. @finepics I think you're on to something.I found this older ETA 6497 and it has the pallet [censored] and older dial screws. New old stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Could this have been one of the changes made when transitioning from the Unitas 6497 to the 6497-1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olreon Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 hello, this morning i recived a brand new "bad" 6497 from trusty. i inspected the movement and the hairspring isn´t bent, till now. i have wound it up and it workes fine, the hairspring is not touching the balance [censored]. so we will see, i will let it run over the weekend in different positions, face up, face down on the side etc. i will let you know on monday if it is okay or also making problems. maybe the first run of these new movement does have the hairspring problem and they fixed it on the later runs. best wishes olreon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Fantastic post. One has to wonder whether this is the end of complete ETA movements in our reps. I think I will stick with my "inaccurate sword" versions. In this case it sounds like the older engraved movement versions are the better versions. A genius (by accident of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 @finepics I think you're on to something.I found this older ETA 6497 and it has the pallet [censored] and older dial screws. New old stock? Excellent find, that is the same movement for sure... So your probably right, old stock mainplates, with aftermarket bridges, and aftermarket balance wheel. This would also support why the ETA balance wheel fits on this model. Great infomation and glad to see everyone participating and adding information. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Could this have been one of the changes made when transitioning from the Unitas 6497 to the 6497-1? That could be true, I dont' have access to what the -1 changes were... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 here other 6497 (not 6497-1) i hope it will help you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 I just received two of these movements last week. Have been running them in both positions on the bench...Can't tell if they are accurate, but they haven't stopped. One movement shows no problems: the spring is perfectly parallel to the the balance wheel, and does not come close to hitting anything. On movement #2, the spring was at a slight angle, but still did not make any contact at in either upright nor upside down positions. I applied light pressure (with a small screwdriver) to the spring near the stud. This deflected it just enough to bring everything back into parallel. I will have the watch regulated once it is built-up, but I don't expect to have any problems. I've tried to take pictures, but it's really hard to get the necessary depth of field, from the side, on full macro settings. I'm happy to be able to use these movements, as they are really beautiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Since first reading this post and finding out i had one of these i had not wanted to wear my fiddy in case it broke but last night i thought " if it breaks it breaks, then i can send it to Ziggy and getthe cannon fixed relume all at the same time" not that i want it to break but if it did. It is a bit like a bike crash being natures way of telling you it is time to customise your bike! Got to admit rather than just glance at the time i have been watching the seconds hand just to check it is still going! Finger crossed eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defender110 Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 is it the general concensus to go with the predecessor ETA movements.. the ones that have engravings but incorrect 'sword' shape and SN? thoughts? j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 is it the general concensus to go with the predecessor ETA movements.. the ones that have engravings but incorrect 'sword' shape and SN? thoughts? j It depends on what you're after...That would be the safe choice. I was after aesthetics. I didn't know about the problem before I bought the movements. And now that I know both of mine are fine, I have no regrets. These movement are really nice looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leitztozeiss Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 As The Zigmeister has said - it's an assembly issue. Some are more prone to have interference between the hairspring and balance than others. And, as The Zigmeister has stated, it can be fixed IF it becomes a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 The bad news is "some" of these models have crooked hairsprings... The good news is, that it can be fixed by straightening the hairspring, or replacing the whole balance wheel with a new one from ETA... Seems to be fairly isolated as other than my 3 bad ones I have serviced, and the one from olreon, there doesn't seem to be a rash of posts about non-working movements... We have seen worse things on these watches before, and overcome the problems... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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