RWG Technical Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 (edited) / Edited December 5, 2007 by ziggyzumba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Klink was right after all...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Klink was right after all...... Klink knows and he is a genious and a great friend too....however i'm not sure about his taste in hats (and helmets) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 So my question to you is this. What is it? An ETA? A Copy of an ETA? A bastardized version of the ETA? Or something else… RG its is likely a asian copy of an ETA or even more likely some parts are bona fide ETA and some are not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olreon Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 hello, i own one of these new bad 6497 movements. i got exactly the problem that ziggy described in his post above. i know what is to do to fix it but i don´t have the skills to do it. i hope that ziggy is willing to fix that for me. otherwise the movement is/was very good in timekepping. it was the first handwind eta 6497 that should not be regulated. i thought "cool", but after 6 weeks it stopped working, and now i . best wishes olreon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Yet another AMAZING post from the master- The Zigmeister... It seems that PAMs with this so-called "new eta 6497 movt" were released about 2 months ago, and the problems are only starting to surface now... Maybe we might begin to see more members with similar problems in time to come? Anyhow, one dealer I know (I'm not mentioning names, though) coincidentally emailed me today that he has reason to suspect that these movts aren't etas after all... Mystery...Mystery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Very intriguing Rob. Very intriguing indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 I'm glad I decided on a Portuguese instead of a fancy PAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabra Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Great post! Why not making it a sticky (or pinned if someone has problems with Freud)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Thanks The Zigmeister, now at least we're alert to these new Pam's that have this movement. It will be interesting to see the reaction from our dealers as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Thanks The Zigmeister, now at least we're alert to these new Pam's that have this movement. It will be interesting to see the reaction from our dealers as well. That's right.. as most of them did advertise this movt as "swiss"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 It's highly possible that the asian makers have bought in a whole consignment of ETA's that have, for some reason, had a modification or were orginally destined for a watch that meant they were made without the 6497 markings. You will not find these marks on a gen Panerai movt. Certainly I would say that the asians have used their own balance wheel in this whereas with the previous modded movts this was gen ETA. Also the centre wheel bearing and pinion on the older ETA's is a different size. So it semems more a mix of parts than the older ones. In fact the whole going train could be asian if they are using the 21600 bph balance and escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highflyingclive Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 @The Zigmeister... not being a watchmaker, I'm straining my eyes to spot the differences between the good and bad movements. But I notice that in this, and in your earlier post on the subject, the "bad" movement in question had "Panerai" engraved bridges. Have you come across this problem on 6947 movements with Cotes de Geneve decoration? Or on the decorated "Jones" version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 I have one of these movements in my fiddy i have just found, so far (2 months plus it has been fine) is it your oppinion ziggy that all of these movements a) will have a problem, it is highly likley c) possible d) only if i am unlucky? Like i say it has been fine but if they will all have a problem then i would feel a bit ripped off having paid ETA prices for what is esentialy a flored works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 @The Zigmeister... not being a watchmaker, I'm straining my eyes to spot the differences between the good and bad movements. But I notice that in this, and in your earlier post on the subject, the "bad" movement in question had "Panerai" engraved bridges. Have you come across this problem on 6947 movements with Cotes de Geneve decoration? Or on the decorated "Jones" version? HFC - this problem seems to be happening with the newest versions of the G and H series movts that have the correct shaped regulateur arm. The first G series with the correct bridges did not have a swan neck and the winding gears were just plain cut standard ETA. Then they started to bevel the gears (but so steeply they did not always engage properly), then they added the swan neck and finally they changed the shape of the balance [censored] and they stayed like this in G and then H series until just recently when these new ones emerged. I have posted this elsewhere but I am wondering if this fault of the hairspring touching the balance [censored] is as a result of premature wear of an insufficiently, or not at all, lubricated balance staff cap jewel. Hence the watch working fine for a month or so before stopping. I have just had an asian 6497 sent to me with exactly the same fault and it had been fine before that. I have not yet looked at it but it works fine when face down but not when face up. Why else would the balance wheel have so much end float as to work face down but stop if face up. The balance is designed with end float so there willl be a small amount of vertical play but for it to move too much the bearing must be worn - makes sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted September 5, 2006 Report Share Posted September 5, 2006 Thanks for your review. I have mixed reactions to the bad news since my pam 249 seems to be one of these movements. On the one hand, I’ve always avoided any contact with the balance wheel and hairspring. I’ve removed and replaced the whole assembly, but this mod is a whole different story and intimidates me. On the other hand, there is a sense of trying something totally new and the reward of possibly pulling it off that is intriguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linder Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 So if I am to understand correctly, all CDG decorated movements are unaffected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 No time left tonight, just a quick bump for updated new pictures re-sized... Only noted this problem on this particular movement, it's a hairspring attachment issue, nothing to do with oiling or wear or time or whatever...it's a Defect of the movement...and so far, I have seen 3 of these models, and ALL 3 had the exact identical PROBLEM...so I think the odds are against this model...3 for 3 is not good in my exprience, and if you add orlean's one, that's 4 for 4... Will try and add more tomorrow if I have time, sorry to run, first day back at school for the children tomorrow...have lots to do... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 I think the thing that's confusing is that they have all been working happily for some time before developing this fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 @The Zigmeister... not being a watchmaker, I'm straining my eyes to spot the differences between the good and bad movements. I've sportted the easy tell, I think. If there is no screw below the beat regulator thingy, it's a cocked [censored] [censored] cocky [censored]. If there is a screw there, it's not going to needlessly stop unless you forget to wind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 I think the thing that's confusing is that they have all been working happily for some time before developing this fault. Not in all cases... The first one I had of these, I noted the different pallet attachment as soon as I took it apart for servicing. Other than this difference, and the dial attachment, I did not take note of any problems... Once the movement was assembled, and I put it on the tester to check the beat and rate, I noticed that the beat and rate were doing funky things when the movement was dial side up. After looking and trying to find the problem, I noted the hairspring issue and fixed it. Since that time I have seen 2 more, with exactly the same issue... I suspect the reason that the problem doesnt' show up immediatly on all of them, is simply that the attachment of the hairspring is not secure, and a small bump or shock moves the hairspring a little bit and it touched the balance [censored]..... It's simply a manufacturing defect or inattention when installing the hairspring, once corrected it should be fine... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted September 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Have you come across this problem on 6947 movements with Cotes de Geneve decoration? Or on the decorated "Jones" version? Have only noted it on the movements with the engraving directly on the bridges. Not on the other models...so far... Lets hope this is an isolated problem. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelamore Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 hello, i own one of these new bad 6497 movements. i got exactly the problem that The Zigmeister described in his post above. i know what is to do to fix it but i don´t have the skills to do it. i hope that The Zigmeister is willing to fix that for me. otherwise the movement is/was very good in timekepping. it was the first handwind eta 6497 that should not be regulated. i thought "cool", but after 6 weeks it stopped working, and now i . best wishes olreon You have one now but you had 2 last week till you sold one to me arrived yesterday in your Fiddy, now I join you and now i too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olreon Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 I think the thing that's confusing is that they have all been working happily for some time before developing this fault. i see it the same way. best wishes olreon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelamore Posted September 6, 2006 Report Share Posted September 6, 2006 Have only noted it on the movements with the engraving directly on the bridges. Not on the other models...so far... Lets hope this is an isolated problem. RG The Zigmeister, So the concensus is: #1 These are NOT ETA Swiss movts? #2 Even if they are working they are timebombs destined to fail anytime? #3 Should be serviced or replaced even if working OK out of box? Thank you for your most informative comprehensive post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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