Servicing of member trades

[lanikai]

do you expect COCS movements when you buy a watch from a member ??

I mean we don't even get this from brand new watches from dealers..

But the more I read post or hear from sellers that the buyer is claiming that the seller should pay for servicing or movement issues.. I have to ask ... "Why"??

One of the BIG reasons I don't sell any of my reps is the fact that anything can happen in shipping.. and most of my reps have been serviced and once they have been fully serviced .. it has not been an issue for me.. BUT.. one can never predict what will happen in transit nor with time for that matter..

I used to own an automotive refinishing shop at one time.. and customers that brought their cars in for example.. would have opened their door hundreds of time.. and the 50"1" time that I open it.. the handle breaks and I'm blamed and have had to dish out whatever money it took to get a brand new one..I hope I've made a decent analogy..

first of all, what proof does anyone have that it the watch needs servicing?? for regulating or anything else.. do we see any paperwork from the buyer,.. and I'm not talking about a receipt that you can by at the office depot.. should every watch sold be COCS ??. kind of unrealistic to me..

Or a good one.. both lug screws fell off... I'm sure we've heard it all.. but when the watch left it was pristine.. yet all these issue happen and the seller is asked to pay for the repairs..and furthermore no proof of anything is ever offered..

I'm sure there are valid and legitimate grips with watches that are bought in the member trade section..

but a lot of the issues are with members that I know are very particular with their watches..

And I don't believe the Admin team is here to moderate member trades, unless it is a total sham.. or the scenario of.. "I shipped it .. dunno what happened to it".

So what do we do.. if it was me... and I knew it was not a valid claim.. I would tell the buyer to send the watch back for a refund ... and would make sure I had pics of the movement so if any buyer tried messing with the movement on their own .. broke it and claims that is the way he got it.. well, you get ma drift..

Sorry gang but I'm getting a little leery of members who are claiming a payment for servicing without any proof at all.. and the seller being very responsible for these issue to begin with..All rep movements are going to need servicing at some point and time..

I think we need to start suggesting solutions.. too many of these issues lately..

AC/Lani

[Ronin]

There should NEVER be an expectation of COSC time keeping. (Although, I have had my share of reps that are close enough).

Heck, my Gen Seikos, and Gen Ball (non-COSC) all run 'significantly' fast.

If I have a movement serviced, or water tested, I will forward along the receipt. (from a verifiable source)

[panerai153]

I think you are absolutely right. The watches I have sold have been well packed, in fact overpacked. Wrapped in bubble wrap, then packed inside a hard box with soft peanuts(foam, not styrofoam) and sealed with packng tape. I have received multiple watches from members as well as dealers inside a soft envelope, rattling around with a couple of wraps of bubble wrap! I have only had one problem, a genuine Doxa that was sent in perfect working order after a service by The Zigmeister, to a buyer who complained that the watch was not running. I gave him the option of refund or sending it back to The Zigmeister for a look see. It turned out some minor problem was evident that was easily fixed at no charge and the customer got his watch back and was very satisfied.He wanted the watch, and wasn't interested in a refund. In fact he paid for all the shipping to and back from The Zigmeister.

If the customer complains, the best thing is to have him send the watch back for a refund. I like your idea of taking the caseback off and taking detailed movement photos. I think sometimes if the buyer sees these and knows you ahve photos there would be less chance of him "tinkering" with the watch.

Here is problem one. I know that we have a lot of folks on this forum that are very proficient, and have done enough modding and movement work to be able to fix a movement. Unfortunately, there are a lot of others who THINK they know what to do, but lack the skills, tools and dexterity to work on a movement. These "tinkerers" want to get the watch to COCS specs and in the process, they screw up something.When this happens, it's easy to email the seller and tell him the watch arrived, but it's not running properly. Maybe what we need to say is "if you take the back off, the watch is yours" Honestly, i believe the best thing is to let the buyer know up front that you would prefer the watch returned if he isn't satisfied, and that you have movement photos to check the condition of the movement when it is returned.

The second problem is beyond everyone's control, what happens to the watch once it is the clutches of the Postal service. Have you ever sat in an airplane and watched the baggage handlers load your luggage? Well, the Post Office is just the same. packages get tossed around, fall off racks or transport dollies, and even with a very well packaged watch, enough jarring may be enough to screw something up inside.

Short of taking lani's approach which is wonderful, provided you have the financial resources to keep all of them, having a firm refund if not satisfied policy is the best way to go. If I had been able to afford to keep them all, i would have a really impressive collection of genuines, since I have been buying and selling watches since the late 1960's. I have had times when I had to sell some to buy more. Just a fact of life for me.

I think most of the guys on the genuine forums that are buying and selling a lot have a 3 day return which I think is reasonable. If a watch is going to have a problem that is shipping related, or had the problem before, it will be evident within the 3 day time frame.If it ain't working to your satisfaction, don't try to fix it, send it back.

[P4GTR]

Couple of months ago, I had a coworker that was going to buy a 21j noob or something off of me. After having it as his desk for a number of hours, he said "It gained a minute laying in such and such direction!". About 2 hours later, "Maybe it was just 30 seconds, Its upside down now and keeping perfect time". I never claimed a servicing, or +/- 5 a day. I told him to try another position, preferably one that would be easy to go ___ himself in!

[opti]

I don't expect it, unless it flat out doesn't work you wont hear back from me.

Some people really do have very high expectations...these are reps guys.

[lanikai]

The 3 day grace sounds like a good start.. so who pay's for the shipping.. should the seller be responsible?? and should the refund be made after the seller receives the watch back??

I think these are valid concerns.. to put aside any tinkering with the watch and then claiming it died..

say the movement is running fast 2 to 4 min. a day.. then what.. should the seller be responsible for the servicing??

[Ronin]

Shipping: Like most internet shopping, if you need to return something it is usually on the returner, not the seller. Shipping is one of those "cost of doing business" kind of things for both parties if the situation arises. IMHO shipping costs is a "shared" responsibility.

I have always viewed purchasing reps a lot like gambling. You win some, you loose some (in terms of expectations of the product).

I think Panerai153 had some great ideas. Photo/Video the whole process going into the package. It is a two-way street. If I sold something, and the buyer opened it to regulate or something and screws it up, it is on them. Maybe as sellers we need little "void if removed" stickers on the caseback. That way the buyer can wear it for a week, and once he removes that sticker there is no recourse against the seller.

I have had one DOA arrival, most likely damaged in shipping. The seller refunded me. In mutual respect, you could follow the timestamps of the tracking, and notifications (this happened to be UPS). The watch was in my possession for less than 10 minutes. (Delivered at 3:00, new shipping label for its return processed at 3:10). I ate the shipping costs.

Back to the COSC thing. IMHO, if the watch is within ONE minute per day (5 minutes by the end of a work week) that is OKAY and probably doesn't require a disclaimer. If the watch is running worse than that, a nice "heads up" in the sales thread would be nice. i.e. watch is running 90 seconds fast per day.

[plaifender]

The 3 day grace sounds like a good start.. so who pay's for the shipping.. should the seller be responsible?? and should the refund be made after the seller receives the watch back??

I think these are valid concerns.. to put aside any tinkering with the watch and then claiming it died..

say the movement is running fast 2 to 4 min. a day.. then what.. should the seller be responsible for the servicing??

To be honest with all of you, This is a great conversation, but if if this is a proposal for the forum to control sales and trades, then I must say that I'm STRONGLY against establishing any formal forum "trade rules" concerning shipping responsibility, refund and return limits and servicing issues.

Yes Lani, they're all VERY valid concerns, but are things that ALL sellers should establish in their post before selling an item. It shouldn't be up to the forum or Admins to determine who should pay shipping or anything of the sort. I'm all for seller protection.. but no one should be responsible for mandating how my sale goes even if it is by means of the forum. Of course there should be limits on prices and things in order to cover RWG's ass (money laundering etc.. is not a good thing). But i think the ball should stop there.

[narikaa]

I could give a few chapters of stories here.

But sometimes the fora are their own worst enemy

All too easily do people convince themselves that they are time served watchmakers

and of course trained themselves to expect the embodiment of perfection in every transaction in return for their handfull o' bucks

.

[Bike Mike]

How are Rep ever expected to run COSC when they are not built with the components that allow that type of accuracy? I am referring to true COSC, not a piece running +3 sec/day dial side up. That is easy to dial in. I see too many are wanting the performance of a Gen at the cost of a Rep.

[panerai153]

To be honest with all of you, This is a great conversation, but if if this is a proposal for the forum to control sales and trades, then I must say that I'm STRONGLY against establishing any formal forum "trade rules" concerning shipping responsibility, refund and return limits and servicing issues.

Yes Lani, they're all VERY valid concerns, but are things that ALL sellers should establish in their post before selling an item. It shouldn't be up to the forum or Admins to determine who should pay shipping or anything of the sort. I'm all for seller protection.. but no one should be responsible for mandating how my sale goes even if it is by means of the forum. Of course there should be limits on prices and things in order to cover RWG's ass (money laundering etc.. is not a good thing). But i think the ball should stop there.

Personally, I would never expect this to become a "Forum rule" I believe that the rules governing the sale of your watch should be determined by you the seller. If you don't have any stipulations, that's fine, and your business. I prefer to lay everything out up front so no one has any surprises or is unhappy later. I sell everything with a 3 day money back guarantee. If the watch is not running properly, send it back to me in exactly the same condition it went out to you, and I will cheerfully refund your money. The shipping back is on the buyer. This is the case in almost 100% of every transaction return agreement I have ever seen.If both the buyer and seller understand the rules of the game, there shouldn't be any problems. that is if everyone abides by the agreement.

[unregistered]

Have had an interesting discussion and issue regarding this on RG over a specific sale of mine. I shan't name names. But the exact circumstances are similar.

To me, I feel that in good standing I'd offer half the repair costs. Most said that they would ask the seller to return to sender so we could verify/refund/fix. I'd do the same if I wasn't so busy, and in truth, regulation is a cheap exercise.

I'd like to extend trust to people, however I've been burnt before and I think I was burnt on this one recently based on recent news I've had on the issue. But this is life and I do strongly believe in what goes around comes around. I try to treat people with respect and trust, if they don't return it, so what. It's a small sum of money and if your integrity is worth that, then you really arn't worth my time to waste on.

[lanikai]

Have had an interesting discussion and issue regarding this on RG over a specific sale of mine. I shan't name names. But the exact circumstances are similar.

To me, I feel that in good standing I'd offer half the repair costs. Most said that they would ask the seller to return to sender so we could verify/refund/fix. I'd do the same if I wasn't so busy, and in truth, regulation is a cheap exercise.

I'd like to extend trust to people, however I've been burnt before and I think I was burnt on this one recently based on recent news I've had on the issue. But this is life and I do strongly believe in what goes around comes around. I try to treat people with respect and trust, if they don't return it, so what. It's a small sum of money and if your integrity is worth that, then you really arn't worth my time to waste on.

Very eloquently stated UR... although you call RG home.. we are grateful to have you here as a second home.. thanks for your class ..

Karma is definitely something that I do not take lightly..

as a community we should address these issues so they don't become the norm..

AC/Lani

plaifender, on 08 February 2010 - 04:44 AM, said:

To be honest with all of you, This is a great conversation, but if if this is a proposal for the forum to control sales and trades, then I must say that I'm STRONGLY against establishing any formal forum "trade rules" concerning shipping responsibility, refund and return limits and servicing issues.

Yes Lani, they're all VERY valid concerns, but are things that ALL sellers should establish in their post before selling an item. It shouldn't be up to the forum or Admins to determine who should pay shipping or anything of the sort. I'm all for seller protection.. but no one should be responsible for mandating how my sale goes even if it is by means of the forum. Of course there should be limits on prices and things in order to cover RWG's ass (money laundering etc.. is not a good thing). But i think the ball should stop there.

No R.. definitely not saying this should be a "rule".. I'm just "suggesting" AWAERNESS.. of the issues.. before they become contagious.. there have been too may "it needs servicing.. I want some money refunded" transactions.. without any evidence..

So, that members are aware of these issues.. they can protect themselves.. because .. rightly so we need to police ourselves without "vigilante" actions.. or members taking advantage of Noobs or members loosing money when it can be "prevented".. we want everyone to be safe.. that's all..

[Toadtorrent]

I think that part of it extends from the fact that people have gotten used to RWG being the defender of the rep interest with regards to transactions with dealers...and extends itself as some expecting this to apply to transactions between members as well. The bar has been set as to the integrity of this board...so people expect more and more for their $100 used purchase.

Personally? If I bought something off of Craigslist...I would expect nothing more from the seller once I paid my money.

If I buy something FROM a seller, I would expect things to be portrayed accurately. Some things, we can't expect the seller to verify because they might not have the technical expertise to do so. For example, opening the caseback and photographing a movement clearly enough to determine if it's a real ETA or Asian ETA. If the seller doesn't know how to open a caseback...and you are nervous about buying something advertised as Swiss without 100% verification...don't buy from them simple. If you do...you take your chance, and don't take it out on the seller to accomodate your error.

I think people as buyers, have to take ownership for some of the problems that occur with any second hand purchase. You can try and mitigate this by asking for things like shipping with tracking...but if the seller won't do this without charging expensive courier rates that we as buyers don't want to pay...we can't make this demand and have to accept the risks of non-courier service.

We also have to understand that hands can fall off in transit...and chronos can stop working. This happens...deal with it. If you find the 50% off bargain turns into needing more technical and expensive repair than expected and the dealer answered your questions to the best of their ability...well...deal with the loss and move on.

So...do I expect COSC specs on used purchases? No. If I bought something advertised as recently serviced by The Zigmeister...I would hope for more...but expect no guarantees as what happens AFTER The Zigmeister services a watch is anybody's guess.

Buy used? Buy with your eyes open and accept that certain problems can arise that we as buyers have to deal with.