Bad deals among members...

[JoJo35]

Here's a subject not too often talked about, although I feel it should be discussed among the general membership for the good of our forum and the community in general.

Although this (and other) rep forums generally discuss high-end replica timepieces that (opinion here) most of the membership simply can't afford, or are aiming toward, our for sale section has been "on the honor system" and very trustworthy for as long as I've been a member.

Recently, however, I have noticed an abundance of "deals gone bad", as noted in the feedback section. So, I had to ask myself, what gives?

For the most part, over the past few years I have noticed that even though differences in opinion crop up from time to time, our membership is composed mostly of avid and honest hobbyist. Somehow though, scammers still seem to weed their way in.

So, IMO, buyer beware. Check out the seller regarding feedback, postcount, and community involvement, and don't be afraid to talk to the person you're about to send money to. Sometimes a quick phone conversation can answer a host of questions.

Cheers,

JJ

[lanikai]

As the rep hobby increases interest around the globe .. so will the scammers .. and peeps looking to make a fast buck off false statements and low end reps... etc. ..

This is the time to be prudent in "who" you are trading with..

Because a deal looks to good to be true.. it usually is.. too good to be true..

Err on the side of caution.. no other way to put it..

AC/Lani

[Marky1012]

Would it be worth having a list of those individuals we have had a positive experience with? Perhaps a Pinned entry on Reviews but one single thread making it easier to get to.

I understand there are some individuals who will receive positive and negative feedback, and where bad feedback exists then that person is removed from the 'good' pile.

This should just be about the positive feeback and not naming and shaming those with negative feedback. I'm sure we can all read between the lines!

[Nanuq]

That's a great suggestion Marky, but unless the buyers/sellers can leave their own feedback, unedited by anyone (which would be necessary to keep any list pruned due to bad behavior) then any comments stored here on the board could be suspect of editorial bias.

This is why we encourage open followup to transactions here. We get the word straight from the horse's mouth and it's made public. If someone is going to scam, we will all hear about it. Maybe that will make them think twice. If they're a new seller/buyer with no "reputation" here then hopefully people considering making a transaction with them will think twice, and make that phone call.

The raw truth is a powerful tool. We publish it here. It outs scammers and it builds powerful reputations. Let's make judicious use of it.

[arniezac]

I think one of the problems, is that a lot of the time, buyers simply can't be bothered to leave 'good' feedback.

I haven't got any, and I'm sure there must be hundreds of other members like me.

I've been PM'd thanking me after a sale but nothing posted for the members to see.

I'm not dishonest, and I've never ripped anybody off in my life, but proving it is extremely difficult when buyers can't find a single comment about me regarding sales I've made.

It seems that we only tend to hear something, if the deal goes bad, and that must be giving us a slightly distorted view of how well things are going in our sales section.

Please leave feedback after a sale, whether its good or bad, its for the benifit of everybody who uses this great forum

[redwatch]

I miss the feedback system....

[FxrAndy]

Hmmm me too,

[krpster]

Feedback system is good but sometimes you have those that will ransome their feedback. I have had that on the bay before where a seller will not leave feedback until I as the buyer do. Especially when a deal goes bad. What this does is devalue the feedback system since all that will remain is positive for everyone. And in the odd case where someone does leave neautral or negative feedback the other party may do the same out of spite (ransomed or not). So then someone who is actually a good trader may get falsely removed from the good list. Tough to police as an entirety. However, it is still noce to see a number attached to someone in terms of trading even if just a reference of volume, etc. So I guess after my tiatribe above I too would like a feedback system

[spooky driver]

there are 25,968 members on this forum so there are bound to be maybe 5 or 6 bad eggs in there...ok maybe a few more

[JoJo35]

...it seems that the problem isn't only here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1279449400/More+FAKE+spotting+%28Tudor+Content%29

[panerai153]

It certainly isn't unique to our forum, it happens from time to time on all the forums. Some of the deals on the genuine forums are for pretty serious cash as well.

One of the real problems with all the forums is everyone is anonymous, unless they voluntarily reveal their name, location, etc. This of course makes it easier for scammers to ply their trade.That probably isn't going to change, so what we need to do is be more diligent in our dealings.

First of all you should as much as possible "buy the seller" first. I think it's a service to our community to review the sale. I know I'm guilty of not doing that on every occasion, but it's nice to be able to see some references. I wouldn't hesitate to PM or email some of those folks who had dealings with member "X" and ask about the transaction.

The main things I'm interested in are representation of the object to be sold, is the seller disclosing everything, good and bad? How was the communication? Did the seller disappear as soon as the money hit his Paypal account? Was the watch, etc. properly packaged and shipped properly, and promptly? Shipping is pretty iffy at best, and if shipping something beyond your countries borders, it's very hard to judge how long it will take for the package to arrive. But if it's shipped USPS priority mail within the CONUS, you should have it in 3-4 business days, excluding Christmas time.

One of the nice things about Paypal is the protection you get if it turns out to be a real scam. Having said that, I'm not sure how successful you would be getting your money back if the seller immediately cleans out his PP account as soon as the money hits.If you used a credit card, that also gives you another layer of protection.

I think one thing that would prevent scammers getting an opportunity would be to immediately post and alert if someone posts in the sales forums that you have had a bad experience with. Second, there aren't very many super rare reps around, so if you miss one, sooner or later, another one will pop up. So, if the deal doesn't feel right, walk away. Don't let your irrational exuberance lead you into something you will regret later.

[eddhead]

What I find most discouraging are bad deals and scams perpetrated by long-standing members with multiple hundreds or thousands of posts. In one recent case, a member with more than 1300 posts who had been on the forum for years alledgely scammed another member out of a significant amount of cash, purportedly accepting payment and never shipping goods. For those of us who consider this place a virtual community, having a trust broken by a long-standing member is heartbreaking. You try to be selective with respect to who you deal with and than that happens...

[Katerchen]

What I find most discouraging are bad deals and scams perpetrated by long-standing members with multiple hundreds or thousands of posts. In one recent case, a member with more than 1300 posts who had been on the forum for years alledgely scammed another member out of a significant amount of cash, purportedly accepting payment and never shipping goods. For those of us who consider this place a virtual community, having a trust broken by a long-standing member is heartbreaking. You try to be selective with respect to who you deal with and than that happens...

+1 for "scoring system"

never been keen on something like this but "changed environments" for ex. many new members

and scams raise the demand for such!

Ive always wondered how smooth many transactions went between members here - sometimes i even

tried to figure out how much parts/watches and $$$ do flow from one member to another without any hassles

Just a thought @Admin-Team:

What about disclosing personal infos like address, phone, etc. to you as an "insurance" if

a deal goes blatantly bad to the Admin-Team so you are able to intervene better?

There are other boards on the internet where a user doesnt only have to give his

"personal details" such as address - phone etc. but also has to verify them with a

copy of his identity-card (or ID number) / passport?

That will frighten off a majority of the scammers!?

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Well thats just a thought and yes 100% security is hard to achieve -

reading some comments i am also thinking about deals where i sent money

or parts/watches to members without ANY public positive feedback

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And @eddhead YES -

i know who you are talkin about - this was a deal that got me (uninvolved)

really mad, because it was a long time and trusted(from other transactions) member from our board!

Unfortunately we have no(??) member living closely next to this seller that could step in

and try to help - that is a good example where the address "alone" and phone number are of

no great help... i hooked up with the seller via phone talkin in his(our) native language

but all info i could get is that "everything is alright... the buyer shouldnt worry and that the

watch is already shipped out..." thats all. No further contact or infos till now.

Frustrating.

But thats not the only one and i guess not the only reason why JOJO

started this ELIGIBLE THREAD!

I remember another <deal> where a watch was shipped "in parts" to another member

with the seller claiming that ALL just happened during shipping with

THE BOX intact!!

Anyway... ill stop here -

not my money or watches but only thinking about such drives me mad!!

And @the people that may read this thread and maybe or may not have done such

intentionally: well think about how you would feel if things like THAT did happen

to your ordered parts/watches or to your money??

How would you feel??

George

[JoJo35]

Some good discussion here, thanks everyone for taking the time to read and to give some thought in your replies.

Here's a couple posts regarding pretty much the same subject:

The first is from TZ:

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=4844176&rid=0

The second discusses a "well known" member from a gen forum. From what I recall, he scammed his brother collectors out of thousands:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1258227522/Jason+Latif

All in all, I agree that the feedback system was at least a step in the right direction. Other than that, more members should be encouraged to provide feedback after a sale.