How to Read Timegrapher Results

[mr73]

Thanks.

 

LEARNING, LEARNING, LEARNING!!!!!!!

[paulvillo]

Great post, and many many thanks!!!

 

I'm a complete noob, and after reading this I compared it to my recently arrived QC pics, and some questions aroused...

 

For example, what should concern one the most?

Having great Beat Error, but less then acceptable Amplitude?

Or great Rate should solve it all??

 

The 40^o gap between Great Amplitude (270^o - 310^o) does not tell one what actually IS great. Is it 270^o or 310^o??

If you find yourself in the Acceptable results area, you have an extra 20^o gap down (250^o - 270^o)

 

 

My QC pics show 327^o and 324^o, that's 14-17^oabove 310^o

It certainly is a much smaller gap than the suggested result range.

But my question is: am I in trouble with this watches??

 

I also have -1 and -2 s/d Rates and 0.1ms Beat Error on my pics.

 

Any help will be very appreciated.

 

 

So you've got the QC images or your brand new best replica, like, ever, with that incabloc you always dreamed of, as swiss as cheese, but what about your timegrapher results? What dahell are those?

74.jpg

Presets

Beat Number
Frequency, the vibration of a movement. The number of balance wheel swings per hour or how many times the watch ticks per hour. This is a preset, depends on the watch you order.
14,400 bph = 4 beats per second
18,000 bph = 5 beats per second
21,600 bph = 6 beats per second
28,800 bph = 8 beats per second
etc

Lift Angle
The angle the balance passes through while interacting with the pallet fork. Important to be set correctly in order to calculate the Amplitude. This preset is per caliber specs.
Most modern watches have a lift angle of 50 - 52 degrees. Generally lift angles range from 44 to 58 degrees. Some other settings are present, for instance Gen co-axials angle is 30 degrees.


Results

Rate
How fast / slow the movement runs (in seconds per day)

great : +/- 5 s/d
acceptable : +/- 12 s/d

If higher / lower?
It is possible to adjust this yourself or ask your dealer to nudge it a bit.


Amplitude
The measure of the amount of rotation in the swing of the balance wheel, in either direction.
Amplitude is higher when a watch is lying flat and usually falls when the watch is in a vertical position, due to increased friction. Amplitude can also fall as the watch winds down and the mainspring delivers less power.
Amplitude is a good indicator of the movements health and if is too high or too low, or that changes too much in different positions, can indicate a problem with the movement.

great : 270-310
acceptable : 250-270

If higher / lower?
Ask for a different watch or have your watch serviced


Beat Error
The amount of time by which the duration of swing differs from one side to the other in the oscillation of a balance wheel. Generally speaking to get a beat error of zero, the roller jewel in the pallet fork must be perfectly centered.

great : 0.0-0.5 ms
acceptable : 0.6-1 ms

If higher?
Ask for a different watch or have your watch serviced.


* Please note that if you are reading your QC from the dealer, you will generally receive only the results of the watch lying flat. All the above recommended measurements are from that position. The measurements in other positions may vary

 

[SSTEEL]

Thanks for this thread, having just acquired a timegrapher, the info is very helpful.

[rails]

Extremely insightful, thank you.

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[TwysT]

Thanks for this clear explanation and examples. Will be very usefull for sure

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[sge1991]

very helpful!

[TannuTuva]

Good stuff! Cheers

[ar71888]

Interesting

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[jayster0966]

Thank you for this very useful info. About to order a couple reps and this info will be very useful in understanding the QC results.

[Brandon Alarcon]

Very helpful to a noob like me .Thank you very much 

[GenTLe]

Is there anyone who could also explain the meaning of the graph (normally a line) below the values? I've seen straight lines, descending lines (parabolic-like), dots etc...

What does that line means?

 

Tnx, GenTLe

[ceejay]

Is there anyone who could also explain the meaning of the graph (normally a line) below the values? I've seen straight lines, descending lines (parabolic-like), dots etc...

What does that line means?

 

Tnx, GenTLe

 

 

There should be 2 lines.

 

What you are seeing is the escapement 'locking' and 'unlocking' or the ticking of a watch

So that little balance wheel that swings back and forth makes a 'tick' when it swing one way and a 'tock' when it swings the other way. 2 lines 'tick, tock'

 

The lines should be parallel with each other meaning that the 'tick' is a equal to the 'tock' if they are not parallel then they have a beat error.

 

Now if you have parallel lines...good, next if the watch is gaining time the 2 lines will gradually move up the screen (or vice versa) and if it's losing then the lines will move down the screen.

 

Hope this makes sense?

[GenTLe]

There should be 2 lines.

 

Thanks Ceejay, understandable and very good explanation for cases like these (even if I'm not getting how this watch is loosing time but still the machine says +000s/d):

 

 

but so how should I read pictures like the one below that have 1 single line?

 

Tnx!

[ceejay]

Bare in mind, we are looking at tiny...tiny discrepencies in the timing.

 

In your first example, beat error 0.7ms look at the width of the gap between the lines and this is just 0.7ms

By the time you get to 0.0ms the lines start looking like a single line.

 

If you look closely at the 2 0.0ms examples you can just make out a tiny rise and fall in the lines. There is 2 lines there but they are so close together they appear as one.

 

Regarding the loss of time on the first example when the lines are moving down, the loss is so small it is not registering.

With the other 2 examples they have been on the machine for 4 seconds. If this had been read after a greater time period you would see the lines dropping off very slowly.

 

Hows that sound?

[GenTLe]

Ah, now I get it!

Thanks a lot!!

[champagneinhand]

Hi everybody. I'm new to this forum but have been on RepGeek for almost a year and have been doing Gen and Rep watches since 1992.

This was a great thread. I bought my own timegrapher for just over $200 and it pretty invaluable, especially if you work on watches for even basic stuff. If you are going to lay out almost a grand for the various tools you need for working on mechanical watches then you won't regret it. Kind of like a demagnetized, the best screwdrivers and tweezers you can afford a timegrapher is a must. Thanks for concisely explaining the benefits of the device as well as the shortcomings of basic QC pictures. Great movements are designed to balance out the + and -s over the day while wearing a mechanical watch. When you have the watch holder and can simulate any angle it's easy to see if something big is off and yes proper cleaning and lubrication is essential. So many reps come with too much lub, not enough or just the wrong type of lubrication. As the 78 year old watch maker I know really well shows people, a good lub should only require a pinpoint of lubrication put on the proper spots that will move smaller amounts throughout the gears. It huge to see this in a plate of glass. A drop is enough to lubricate 20 mechanical movements that are assembled in a clean, dust free environment. We know none of the rep factories have these conditions and many don't even wear latex gloves... So annoying to need to pull apart a rep to clean finger prints off a crystal. The may make a great rep but we have all seen hair and even food particles stuck in newly assembled movements from the better Chinese factories.

[versaceboy54]

Thank you for that info. I actually have read that before but would still like some input.

If a "great" rate is + /- 5 s/d and mine is -8 is that a good number? Also for the amp, it seems a little high if "great" is considered 270-310. And mine is 314 is that to high? The main thing I just want to know is if this watch is a keeper or do I need to ask for a new watch?

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[GenTLe]

@Versaceboy: conside that it depends also on how much the watch has been wound...

[champagneinhand]

Excellent. I have a time grapher, and a full set of watch tools which cost plenty. It surprises me more don't own a $200+ time grapher. They aren't super expensive and really handy devices.

Again like all info, if you don't know how to interpret said info it's almost useless. If you have 8+ reps with some gens scattered into the mix, I think owning one is a good investment. As good as proper screwdrivers and tweezers plus the right type of demagnetizer. Again just my $.02. If you have loads of Quartz then maybe not. I have several great Quartz but with mechanical movements it gives you a good picture when putting a watch through the different rotations.

I guess they say knowledge is power and understanding provided by a simple tool make the sum knowledge well worth the cost of ownership. Finding space for everything, now that is the problem.

[arkx07]

Thank You, Helpful stuff.

[civic4982]

Nice post thank you

[philster1919]

Hi all - this is a very helpful post to a noob like me. I wonder if I could ask a question? I've been reading as much on this and other forums as I can about how to buy replica watches, and how to avoid the possible pitfalls involved. I've yet to actually buy my first watch, although I am almost ready to pull the trigger. I've found a good dealer (Trusty Time), and a watch that I think looks good. The QC photos are included on the website and look excellent. I've been in touch with the dealer with a few questions, and he got back to me within the hour and seemed very friendly and professional. The only thing that's holding me back is that one of the QC photos is of a timegrapher readout for the watch that seems out of whack with the advice given here, and I'd like the forum's thoughts on how important this is.

 

The readings are:

 

Rate              -004 m/s

Amplitude     257

Beat Error     2.4m/s

 

So, on the OP's advice, the rate and amplitude are fine. But the beat error is way off, 1.4m/s above what is considered 'acceptable'.

 

Does the beat error reading suggest that I should not get the watch?

 

I'd be grateful to hear what you think. I know that some of you may be tempted to suggest I just read up and get more information. But I've been doing that and the more I read, the more confusing it gets as everyone seems to have a different view about the importance of timegrapher readouts. Some people think they're really important, others think you should just ignore them. Some people think that the timegrapher means nothing compared to 'real world' use. Others have different views about what is an 'acceptable' reading. As someone newish to all this I'm finding it all a bit confusing and would be pleased to get some advice.

 

Thanks.

[GenTLe]

Hi all - this is a very helpful post to a noob like me. I wonder if I could ask a question? I've been reading as much on this and other forums as I can about how to buy replica watches, and how to avoid the possible pitfalls involved. I've yet to actually buy my first watch, although I am almost ready to pull the trigger. I've found a good dealer (Trusty Time), and a watch that I think looks good. The QC photos are included on the website and look excellent. I've been in touch with the dealer with a few questions, and he got back to me within the hour and seemed very friendly and professional. The only thing that's holding me back is that one of the QC photos is of a timegrapher readout for the watch that seems out of whack with the advice given here, and I'd like the forum's thoughts on how important this is.

The readings are:

Rate -004 m/s

Amplitude 257

Beat Error 2.4m/s

So, on the OP's advice, the rate and amplitude are fine. But the beat error is way off, 1.4m/s above what is considered 'acceptable'.

Does the beat error reading suggest that I should not get the watch?

I'd be grateful to hear what you think. I know that some of you may be tempted to suggest I just read up and get more information. But I've been doing that and the more I read, the more confusing it gets as everyone seems to have a different view about the importance of timegrapher readouts. Some people think they're really important, others think you should just ignore them. Some people think that the timegrapher means nothing compared to 'real world' use. Others have different views about what is an 'acceptable' reading. As someone newish to all this I'm finding it all a bit confusing and would be pleased to get some advice.

Thanks.

Well, let's put it un this way: those values are all fixable, but to do that you need at least a basic timegrapher, a small set of horological screwdrivers and a caseback opening tool.

Let's say 250$ minimum of tools, and a minimum of expertise to work on them.

So un your clothes I would ask for a new one OR to have it regulated before shipment.

[philster1919]

Thanks very much for your help. I'm in no position at all to be fiddling around with the watch myself as I have no expertise in this area. I'll get in touch with the dealer and see if they have any alternatives available.

 

Thanks again.

[Accutronitis]

While it's true a timegrapher numerical readout is a average of each of the readouts it can be adjusted so it take a sample every 60 seconds all the way down to every 2 seconds, Every 2 seconds may not be real time but it's not real that bad and it tell you everything you need to know.

 

But the timegrapher also shows information on beat error and rate error in real time by watching the grapher part of the timegrapher, Each dot being displayed is just one beat out of 28,800 beats in one hour or 16 beats in 2 seconds (if the watch in question has a beat rate of 28,800 bph) so if beat rate (the line going up or down) or beat error (the lines getting more or less wider apart from each other) are all over the place you will see it in real time on the graph as the dots being all over the place on the screen and that will definitely have an effect on amplitude and not in a good way, But if the timegrapher is showing the dots in a nice very consistent line or lines (lines if there is a beat error) you know the amplitude is going to be consistent because your not going to ever have inconsistent amplitude that's all over the place without it having a effect on ether beat rate or beat error or both and the same goes the other way around, that effect will show up on the graph and all it takes is some experience to recognize what the graph is showing you........    

Edited June 14, 2015 by Accutronitis