What the point of QC pics?

[juicemouse]

What's the point of QC pics if the TD's don't fix problems you point out, like large, gaping holes between the lugs and the end links. I can see day light through them. Would you guys not consider that an issue? It's easy to make things smaller with some filing but impossible to put material back.

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[jpz5142]

The point of QC is to ensure to you the buyer that the dealer is sending you the correct watch and that there are no egregious issues such as cracked crystal, missing indices etc.

Anything else is what the dealers (and many members here) call "nitpicking". If a rep is known to have SEL gaps, poor/sloppy lume, crooked indices, purple AR etc rejecting a watch based on these principles is poor form. You may not want a watch with those issues but remember dealers don't get to return the watch to the maker just because you don't care for the SEL gap. They have bought it from the maker since you ordered it and can only return (for repair) it if there are those egregious issues mentioned above.

The rep game isn't like buying from NeimanMarcus (who have the most lax return policy, they accept any and all returns, don't need receipt, don't even need to have bought the item from them). If you can't deal with getting a rep with any of the "possible" issues that can occur then get a Gen, reps aren't for you.

[Legend]

The point of QC is to ensure to you the buyer that the dealer is sending you the correct watch and that there are no egregious issues such as cracked crystal, missing indices etc.

Anything else is what the dealers (and many members here) call "nitpicking". If a rep is known to have SEL gaps, poor/sloppy lume, crooked indices, purple AR etc rejecting a watch based on these principles is poor form. You may not want a watch with those issues but remember dealers don't get to return the watch to the maker just because you don't care for the SEL gap. They have bought it from the maker since you ordered it and can only return (for repair) it if there are those egregious issues mentioned above.

The rep game isn't like buying from NeimanMarcus (who have the most lax return policy, they accept any and all returns, don't need receipt, don't even need to have bought the item from them). If you can't deal with getting a rep with any of the "possible" issues that can occur then get a Gen, reps aren't for you.

+1 well said

 

I recently rejected an AP Diver that had one of the bezel screws inserted the wrong way. I pointed it out to the dealer when I was shown the QC pics, and he fixed it for me. 

 

To the OP:

In short, you can reject the watch if its not conforming to its rep specification, damaged or incomplete For example, missing screws, cracked crystal, scratched case, abnormalities of logos, etc.

But the watch should not be rejected for inherent rep flaws and deviations from gen. 

 

The rule of thumb is when rejecting a specific shown watch is: Do you believe the next piece is going to be flawless in the area you rejected the watch for? If not, it is an inherent rep flaw. Wait for the next version. If you are unsure, check with the dealer politely. Else, move on to another model. 

 

Just understand that QC pics are sent for our benefit, to let us know that we are getting the correct watch, and that there are no glaring damages or defects. Remember that even for the gens, defects exist, and they are not always 100%!

[Fracture]

Still. If we can't reject watches with bad lume and skewed letters... I have a stinker of a PO while I have seen examples of perfect ones around. Do I not pay the same money as others? Do I not have the right to get a good watch? This is what is starting to really bother me about the rep business. It's illegal so we should be on our knees thanking the dealers for the privilege of purchasing rep watches? F*ck that, seriously. I work hard for my money, I'd like to see something in return. Is it really that hard for the rep factories to have a bit of quality control?

[juicemouse]

Well the TD came through. I think he saw the same SEL gap (at least 1mm) and sent me new QC pics. I just wanted the watch to resemble the one on their website; nothing more, nothing less. My second purchase from this particular dealer and he will continue to get my and my referrals business.

[Mike on a bike]

"I work hard for my money, I'd like to see something in return." I come firmly down on this side of equation but I am also not that nit picky a person, also firmly in none anal corner. Glad you got that straighten out Juice.

[Legend]

Still. If we can't reject watches with bad lume and skewed letters... I have a stinker of a PO while I have seen examples of perfect ones around. Do I not pay the same money as others? Do I not have the right to get a good watch? This is what is starting to really bother me about the rep business. It's illegal so we should be on our knees thanking the dealers for the privilege of purchasing rep watches? F*ck that, seriously. I work hard for my money, I'd like to see something in return. Is it really that hard for the rep factories to have a bit of quality control?

I agree with that. We just need to know what the dealer can do, and what he cannot. Like I said, defects should be addressed by the dealer accordingly.

But design flaws are something they cannot do much about.

[jpz5142]

F*ck that, seriously. I work hard for my money, I'd like to see something in return.

Trust me, I feel the same way. With the prices of reps going up I find myself much more selective about the rep that I do buy. I also find myself buying more mid to moderately priced "gens". Steinhart, Raven, Oris, TagHeuer, RaymondWeil....

Is it really that hard for the rep factories to have a bit of quality control?

Not really hard, it just would cost money, due to hiring of and retaining experienced staff, due to cost of internal rejects, due to many other things. At the end on the day rep makers are all about making money and don't really give a flying fuck about the quality of their products, beyond a very minimalistic level that is to say.

[panerai153]

Trust me, I feel the same way. With the prices of reps going up I find myself much more selective about the rep that I do buy. I also find myself buying more mid to moderately priced "gens". Steinhart, Raven, Oris, TagHeuer, RaymondWeil....

Not really hard, it just would cost money, due to hiring of and retaining experienced staff, due to cost of internal rejects, due to many other things. At the end on the day rep makers are all about making money and don't really give a flying fuck about the quality of their products, beyond a very minimalistic level that is to say.

This may be a big problem that the rep makers face eventually. While I doubt that there will ever be a lack of demand for "low end" reps that are sold at flea markets, sidewalk vendors, and back rooms in places like Canal Street,, the same might not be true of these that are approaching 1k for and out of box rep. When you get into that price point, especially considering that even with the 800 USD rep, it will still need some after market tweaking, you are beginning to compete with lots of really nice genuine watches. Considering that the price of the new FC ROO is almost 800 USD, and to this added shipping ,PayPal fees, and in some markets additional for "triangle" shipping, you are now looking at north of 900 USD for a rep. After it arrives, you realize that the AR isn't so good, and the  lume is lacking, and hey, that sec @ 12 movement probably should be serviced!! Now you tally all that up, and you are looking at another 400- 600 USD, depending on who does the work, and how much you have done. So now we have a 1300-1500 USD rep. With that in mind, I believe that for 1500 USD, you can get some really nice genuine watches, including some "name brand" watches if you are willing to buy something that is gently used. What have you gained from this, and what have you lost? Well, first the loss. It's not going to be a 25K watch, which the ROO rep is. So if you are buying because you are trying to impress someone. with your really expensive watch, this isn't the deal for you. If you aren't trying to impress anyone, but you truly love a particular brand, and want their watches and are not able or willing to spend 25K on a watch, then this also wouldn't interest you. I believe that for the most part most of the folks here fall into the latter category, they truly love Rolex, Patek,  Panerai, AP, etc. and want to own examples of the watches they love. Another group would be the  folks who buy a rep to "Try it on for size" so to speak, before going out to their local AD and spending their hard earned cash on a particular watch. All are perfectly valid arguments and will serve to keep the manufacturers building high end reps. So what are the gains from buying a gen? First off are all the things that the rep lacks, real QC, a genuine watch with box papers and a real warranty, a dealer and company that has customer service that hopefully will respond to your problems. Customer service is comprised of real people who you can actually contact and speak to about a problem. And lastly, these are watches that you can wear anywhere, into any AD in the world, have them repaired by any trained watchmaker, and lastly should you decide to sell the watch, you have multiple venues to sell.

 

Are the high end  reps going to go away? No, because there are always going to be folks who have the resources and desire to own these reps. However, if folks become selective and decide that 500 USD is their limit and this has and appreciable impact on the sales of these high end reps, I could foresee in the future, less "versions" being introduced. Instead of being on version 5 within a year or so, we might still be on version 1 or maybe 2. the manufacturers will only upgrade if the see a market for the upgraded versions. If the market is slim, the selections will be as well.

[juicemouse]

"I work hard for my money, I'd like to see something in return." I come firmly down on this side of equation but I am also not that nit picky a person, also firmly in none anal corner. Glad you got that straighten out Juice.

Thanks Mike. Our culture might have differences on what is ethically acceptable but everyone understands money. The forum levels the playing field just a little bit by holding dealers accountable. Thanks RWG.

[Nightwatch]

QC pics are made so You are forced to confirm the flaws You didn´t want in the first place or You don´t get the watch; Insurance for the TD

 

All the rest is strict price setting and policy and getting away with it.

 

In EU and US the Dealer would be able to sell the flawed ones but with a 30% to 50% discount (2nd choice ware). In China both cost 350 + shipping,

it´s the customer who pays the bill. 

When reselling on the forum the neighbours good one is worth 380 and my flawed one has difficulties finding a buyer for 220....

[Fracture]

When reselling on the forum the neighbours good one is worth 380 and my flawed one has difficulties finding a buyer for 220....

 

See, that's the problem with their shoddy quality control. Different people order the same watch, pay the same amount of money but depending on your luck your watch might or might not be worth as much as the other buyer's watch.

[KB]

Ok just a couple of points.

 

1. No TD owns or in anyway controls a factory, they are all middle men.

 

2. Price goes up because the factory pushes them up not the dealer, the dealers (most) are still making the same margins they did 10 years ago, they simply make more through volume of sales.

 

3. There is another factor that governs prices and that is the very high expectations buyers have now that they get an 'Amazon' shopping experience. Forget this is an illegal hobby, dealers have long ago taken on board all the risks if it is faulty, the wrong item, the wrong colour, the wrong size or seized we replace or repair at our cost.

 

4. Sure people work hard for their money but I am willing to bet that not many put in the same amount of hours that your TD does.

 

For these reasons it is more important to the dealer than the buyer that you do look closely at the QC pic's as it is the dealer who pays if you are not happy.

 

Recently I have seen customers stating disputes over buyers remorse so we are in fact moving beyond the "Amazon' buying experience and it is now getting very difficult for sellers to stay in business.

 

Ken

[Mike on a bike]

Ken and now the other side of the coin, of course you are correct about Amazon experience and at least for my part I know dealers are not making a better margin on higher end stuff factories are in control. This being said if you are the factory supple and demand rules discipline guys discipline this will cause factories to lower price to your dealer and in the end to you.

[jpz5142]

Recently I have seen customers stating disputes over buyers remorse so we are in fact moving beyond the "Amazon' buying experience and it is now getting very difficult for sellers to stay in business.

Ken

It's for this reason I feel strongly that if a person can't stomach the possible issues with reps (I'm talking watches not Ken's soft goods here) then they should buy Gens. Their nitpicking only hurts the community as a whole. The dealer is only able to do so much.

I like a rep now and again, but for when I just want a watch that I can wear out of the box I buy a gen. I either buy modded reps or get them modded and that takes time. In the end they are all watches to me, I don't particularly need a brand name to impress myself or anyone else, I'd be happy if the dial was stamped "Mr Magoo's Imporium", I just want a watch that I can rely on and has outstanding lume.

[juicemouse]

Buyers remorse is completely different from receiving a defective item. Everyone is different in the level of flaws that they are willing to accept but if the QC pictures are different from the advertised item (bait and switch), and the dealer is unwilling to replace the item, then I think we have a problem.

To ken's point, QC pics should be scanned thoroughly to make sure the product meets your standards.

To my point, there is no point to QC pics if the dealer doesn't address issues found during the QC review. This is how we get better, faster. Rep quality improves, sales increase, less rejected parts waste, happier customers, repeat business. We all win.

[KB]

Ken and now the other side of the coin, of course you are correct about Amazon experience and at least for my part I know dealers are not making a better margin on higher end stuff factories are in control. This being said if you are the factory supple and demand rules discipline guys discipline this will cause factories to lower price to your dealer and in the end to you.

 

Yes normally I would agree with this Mike, however no one dealer has volume of sales large enough to influence a factory, the closest we see is Josh and Andrew both sourcing from the same place.

 

Through them we have seen, on occasions, slight changes (in these cases the factory shows that their buying power has some standing) but ask yourself this, when is the last time a factory took on board all our suggestions and produced the perfect watch?

 

We really are a small part of the replica watch business and the truly obscene thing is that they make far more from their Canal Street quality worldwide than our high end reps.

 

Ken

[KB]

Juice I have found that it is really far less hassle and far less customer complaints to employ someone to physically QC items.

 

After all are you certain that QC pic's are always the watch you are receiving?

 

Ken

[Mike on a bike]

I was going to add that Ken as it crossed my mind the factory makes more banging out cheapies that bothering with OC on our stuff, volume trumps all.

[juicemouse]

Juice I have found that it is really far less hassle and far less customer complaints to employ someone to physically QC items.

After all are you certain that QC pic's are always the watch you are receiving?

Ken

That's a good point, I have no idea. Even though the products are replicas, I would like to think the business end of the transaction remains honest, as it would for any other product.