What's so bad about the Cartel 5512/13 bezel assembly?

[e30m3]

I've been pouring over threads that suggest:

 

1. WSO bezel assembly is no longer dependable quality-wise

2. ST and Watchman408 have good options ($90 and $80 respectively, with the latter including the insert)

3. Clark you gotta polish and is hit or miss

 

But what's the reasoning behind changing the whole shebang (as opposed to just the insert)? Do I need to do this to have an accurate 5513?

[capre]

As long as you enjoy your watch you can wear it however you like.

[occb2]

Well I am far from being a 4 digit guy.  I have made amazing ones.  I own a 1680 that is completely Rolex but the center/mid case.  I got a real 1680 case back and a full real Rolex bezel assembly along with the crystal ring and crystal.  I did the same with my 5513.

 

I have seen WSO and Startime ones.  They are both not correct with the angle of the bezel.  The rest are close.  But the tension washer never fits properly. It alway jams up the actual bezel on the startime one, which is the one that I get the most for people.  

 

Phong makes an amazing set but it is not cheap.  But at least it is very close to the real deal.

 

I started with the 1680 by thinking I could do what I did with my 16610 when I started, which was get a real crystal and crystal ring and slowly start from there.  But when I got the real crystal ring the phong bezel didn't fit well.  It was really lose.  Then I got a star time one and it was too tight.  Then I got a WSO one and it was matted finish and looked like crap.  None worked.  Then I found a guy on TRF in Germany that had a bezel set with tention ring all sealed.  I got it and it all works like butter.

 

Now as far as Cartel.  It is what it is.  I hate that statement.  But when you are buying a $300 dollar watch it just doesn't do the right thing with the bezel.  While it is an amazing watch for the cost, understand that the watch it is replicating is 30-50 years old.  Look up a 5512/5513 at the year you are trying to get it too look like.  Then go from there.  I dont know if a Cartel is a Rolex spec crystal.  If it is, trust me when I tell you that a phong crystal ring and bezel assembly with a real Rolex acrylic crystal is the way too go.

 

Hope this helps.

 

I know that it is a lot of money.  But that watch above is one of the best builds I made.

Real Rolex full bezel with crystal ring.

Real Rolex 1520 serviced

Real Rolex 5513 dial

Real Rolex 5513 hands.

Real Rolex 93150 with 501B end links.

Real Rolex acrylic crystal.

Real Rolex crown and tube

Phong 5513 case.

 

[capre]

Well I am far from being a 4 digit guy.  I have made amazing ones.  I own a 1680 that is completely Rolex but the center/mid case.  I got a real 1680 case back and a full real Rolex bezel assembly along with the crystal ring and crystal.  I did the same with my 5513.

 

I have seen WSO and Startime ones.  They are both not correct with the angle of the bezel.  The rest are close.  But the tension washer never fits properly. It alway jams up the actual bezel on the startime one, which is the one that I get the most for people.  

 

Phong makes an amazing set but it is not cheap.  But at least it is very close to the real deal.

 

I started with the 1680 by thinking I could do what I did with my 16610 when I started, which was get a real crystal and crystal ring and slowly start from there.  But when I got the real crystal ring the phong bezel didn't fit well.  It was really lose.  Then I got a star time one and it was too tight.  Then I got a WSO one and it was matted finish and looked like crap.  None worked.  Then I found a guy on TRF in Germany that had a bezel set with tention ring all sealed.  I got it and it all works like butter.

 

Now as far as Cartel.  It is what it is.  I hate that statement.  But when you are buying a $300 dollar watch it just doesn't do the right thing with the bezel.  While it is an amazing watch for the cost, understand that the watch it is replicating is 30-50 years old.  Look up a 5512/5513 at the year you are trying to get it too look like.  Then go from there.  I dont know if a Cartel is a Rolex spec crystal.  If it is, trust me when I tell you that a phong crystal ring and bezel assembly with a real Rolex acrylic crystal is the way too go.

 

Hope this helps.

 

I know that it is a lot of money.  But that watch above is one of the best builds I made.

Real Rolex full bezel with crystal ring.

Real Rolex 1520 serviced

Real Rolex 5513 dial

Real Rolex 5513 hands.

Real Rolex 93150 with 501B end links.

Real Rolex acrylic crystal.

Real Rolex crown and tube

Phong 5513 case.

 

 

Im on the same page. I just cant live with the flaws. Heres my 5512

 

[occb2]

Looks beautiful. I can say I have never seen such large beveling on a Rolex but like I said I’m not to great with the 4 digit rolexes. 

 

I fell in Love with Rolex subs because of my fathers. He got it before I was born at the time my brother was just born in 68. It was a 5513. 

 

When he he died a few years back the watch went MIA. But I have all my babies. 

 

Bottom line is keep building until YOU are happy. 

[highoeyazmuhudee]

for some reason phong and yuki can't get the crown guard profile correct on the bottom, but the cartel case does. for me that is an instant tell on these high cost replacement cases.

[occb2]

3 hours ago, highoeyazmuhudee said:

for some reason phong and yuki can't get the crown guard profile correct on the bottom, but the cartel case does. for me that is an instant tell on these high cost replacement cases.

 

I dont know which case from phong you are looking at.  If you call him and just ask for a case you will get a case that looks like crap.  That is the thing about phong and they it is so expensive.  You call him and send him a picture of the case and the year you are looking for and he matches it perfectly.  On 4 or 5 digit cases.  Why spend $1000 on a case that looks like crap.  On my 1680 I wanted a chunky flat crown guards to match the late 70's 1680 because that was the dial I had, a MKII whitey.

 

The problem is in a statement like yours, is, and please do not take offense too it, is that you have no idea what a rolex submariner is.  There is no such thing as crown guard profile an bottom.  Each case is different and each year and depending on how many times it was serviced and polished changes it.

 

There are chunky crown guards and skinny and pointy and flat and angled.  Best thing too do is grab a picture of the watch you want and contact Jensen or his father Phong and send them the exact case you want.  You are paying for it.  

 

I have done this about 10 times with them and only returned one case because the SEL didn't fit properly. It was corrected and a new case was sent to me in 3 days.  

 

This is how I would make a watch.

 

Find the dial you are looking for.  I actually made my dads 5513 and never get the right dial.  I had the year of his watch and the serial number.  When he died his watch disappeared.  But his watch was the last of the meters first dial.  It was a 1968.  That year the case had very weird middle thickness crown guards.  I took a picture of the case from The Rolex Submariner Story of a 1968 submariner.  I gave them the serial number of the watch and I got back an amazing case.  I got a 1520 and I couldn't find the right dial in good condition.  I got a reprint but it was never right.

 

So on my 1680 I found the dial first.  It was a beautiful whitey dial.  I got Mike to get me set of Rolex Tritium hands for the 1680.  I got every part for the crystal and crystal ring and bezel original Rolex.  I sent Jensen a picture of the late 70's 1680 sub with the chunky crown guards.  He asked me if I wanted it to look in new condition, used,  serviced, I picked used but never sent to service. (Just in case I want to change or polish the case at a later date). I got a perfect copy of the case I sent him.  Crown guards and lugs.

 

So to make a blanket statement that THEY CANT GET THE CROWN GUARD PROFILE CORRECT, just means you are referring to their stock case, and the year you have in mind.  It is simple.  So I dont know Cartel watches.  To me they are nice $300 copies which I can spot sitting at a table in seconds.  I believe that Cartel are all in the same exact case type.  They are all the same as far as crown guards and so on.  Rolex has never done that because they are hand made and hand worked cases in the 60-70's and each are different.  Cartel watches look amazing for a nice everyday beater.  Polish it up and buff out the crystal and the watch looks like new.  The movement craps out you buy a 20-30 dollar 21J and throw it in.  But there are tons of give aways like the bezel.  But once you start to put all rolex parts on the watch the price goes through the roof.  That is why I like to start with a case that I can grow with.  A case that if I want to later on down the line I can put a real rolex movement in it and real rolex dial and bezel and so on.

 

I have seen Cartel cases worked on.  There are a lot of threads on RWI and Repgeek and even here, of taking a Cartel and working it.  The case comes out amazing.  A good watch maker does wonders!  

Good luck.

[e30m3]

Great thoughts. The insight is much appreciated. I'm determined to stay with the Cartel case for this build. (My first build ever, so it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to break the bank if I might just break the watch itself while trying to mod it!) I'll shape and I'll shape to get it as close as I can, and then I suspect what will happen is, knowing myself (and I suspect anyone who considers themselves a "watch nerd," I won't be able to live with the imperfections. Then I'll consider a new project with a better case. But I want to have those realizations myself, so that I'm aware of what I'm paying for when I drop the cash to go to a better case/etc.

 

As for the Cartel bezel, the entire assembly flew off the minute I took the watch out of the plastic wrap. The crystal had a rubber O-ring. The insert is really bad; both the font and the way it seems to angle upward toward the center of the dial (if that makes sense). The list goes on. Does the real deal sit flat? That brings up the other point - I suspect you guys have had a lot more experience with the real thing than I have. Going off internet pictures alone makes it tough to spot differences that may appear easily in real-life (particularly when you have multiple in hand to compare with). I digress, though; the point seems to be that I'll notice a significant enough difference with... Say.... A Clark bezel (because, as I mention, I'm not spending Phong money on this watch) to make it worth it. Si?

 

 

 

 

[Sogeha]

@occb2 a very informed and informative post as usual. It’s always a pleasure to see you here

[Jack1993]

12 hours ago, Sogeha said:

@occb2 a very informed and informative post as usual. It’s always a pleasure to see you here

Agree, I learnt a lot from reading that! Was great

[highoeyazmuhudee]

16 hours ago, occb2 said:

 

I dont know which case from phong you are looking at.  If you call him and just ask for a case you will get a case that looks like crap.  That is the thing about phong and they it is so expensive.  You call him and send him a picture of the case and the year you are looking for and he matches it perfectly.  On 4 or 5 digit cases.  Why spend $1000 on a case that looks like crap.  On my 1680 I wanted a chunky flat crown guards to match the late 70's 1680 because that was the dial I had, a MKII whitey.

 

The problem is in a statement like yours, is, and please do not take offense too it, is that you have no idea what a rolex submariner is.  There is no such thing as crown guard profile an bottom.  Each case is different and each year and depending on how many times it was serviced and polished changes it.

 

There are chunky crown guards and skinny and pointy and flat and angled.  Best thing too do is grab a picture of the watch you want and contact Jensen or his father Phong and send them the exact case you want.  You are paying for it.  

 

I have done this about 10 times with them and only returned one case because the SEL didn't fit properly. It was corrected and a new case was sent to me in 3 days.  

 

This is how I would make a watch.

 

Find the dial you are looking for.  I actually made my dads 5513 and never get the right dial.  I had the year of his watch and the serial number.  When he died his watch disappeared.  But his watch was the last of the meters first dial.  It was a 1968.  That year the case had very weird middle thickness crown guards.  I took a picture of the case from The Rolex Submariner Story of a 1968 submariner.  I gave them the serial number of the watch and I got back an amazing case.  I got a 1520 and I couldn't find the right dial in good condition.  I got a reprint but it was never right.

 

So on my 1680 I found the dial first.  It was a beautiful whitey dial.  I got Mike to get me set of Rolex Tritium hands for the 1680.  I got every part for the crystal and crystal ring and bezel original Rolex.  I sent Jensen a picture of the late 70's 1680 sub with the chunky crown guards.  He asked me if I wanted it to look in new condition, used,  serviced, I picked used but never sent to service. (Just in case I want to change or polish the case at a later date). I got a perfect copy of the case I sent him.  Crown guards and lugs.

 

So to make a blanket statement that THEY CANT GET THE CROWN GUARD PROFILE CORRECT, just means you are referring to their stock case, and the year you have in mind.  It is simple.  So I dont know Cartel watches.  To me they are nice $300 copies which I can spot sitting at a table in seconds.  I believe that Cartel are all in the same exact case type.  They are all the same as far as crown guards and so on.  Rolex has never done that because they are hand made and hand worked cases in the 60-70's and each are different.  Cartel watches look amazing for a nice everyday beater.  Polish it up and buff out the crystal and the watch looks like new.  The movement craps out you buy a 20-30 dollar 21J and throw it in.  But there are tons of give aways like the bezel.  But once you start to put all rolex parts on the watch the price goes through the roof.  That is why I like to start with a case that I can grow with.  A case that if I want to later on down the line I can put a real rolex movement in it and real rolex dial and bezel and so on.

 

I have seen Cartel cases worked on.  There are a lot of threads on RWI and Repgeek and even here, of taking a Cartel and working it.  The case comes out amazing.  A good watch maker does wonders!  

Good luck.

Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant with the "rear profile".

 

This is probably the most common crown guard style on the vintage subs. it's on the majority of 5513s, 5512s, and 1680s.

 

 

The yuki and phong cases I've seen don't have the right shape on the back. They're just round instead of flat with a slight extrusion past the beginning of the tube then round. Yuki and phong cases more closely resemble a 1665 CG. I cant find any gen 5513, 5512, 1680 examples with the same classic tear drop cg shape the phong and yuki produce. A PCG has the same transition on the bottom then the rest is completely different, and even a square cg looks nothing like what they're producing with regards to the classic tear drop cg.

Some of these yuki and phong case examples are as recent as 2017. None of the below examples are from a PCG or square guard case unless stated on the pic. They were all meant to be the tear drop cg and are from rep forum members builds who paid over $1k for these cases .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by highoeyazmuhudee

[capre]

Based on the pictures above id say the phong case delivers excellence.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

19 minutes ago, capre said:

Based on the pictures above id say the phong case delivers excellence.

sure, but the majority of us aren't building PCG vintage subs, and that profile is useless for any 1680.

[mir36]

@higho thanks for sharing the knowledge as always.  The tip about the "rear profile" is especially helpful, as I plan to treat myself to a gen vintage sub soon.

[Sogeha]

14 minutes ago, mir36 said:

@higho thanks for sharing the knowledge as always.  The tip about the "rear profile" is especially helpful, as I plan to treat myself to a gen vintage sub soon.

Absolutely. Two different opinions from two members whose opinion I have great respect for, but that is okay, it’s how we grow our knowledge base. Thank you gentlemen both

[occb2]

I missed this response sorry.

 

Ok a few things.  The comment about the Phong case not being GEN for the rear or the CG's is completely not true.  This is another one of people being full of fake knowledge.  Not trying to insult anyone.  This is far from the truth as it can get.  EVERY Rolex looks different when it comes to cases.  Why? Because it all depends on how many times its been serviced or polished.  That is just one thing.  The other thing is that when you order a phong case you TELL him how you want your case.  If you say give me a 1680 case he will send you what ever he has.  If you order one and say I want pointy crown guards or chunky grown guards or what ever, he will make it.

 

Get THE ROLEX SUBMARINER STORY, look at the watches.  That will open your eyes.  Especially the ones at the end when it comes from peoples private collection.  They are all over the place with crown guards.  Years ago I stopped even thinking about it.  If I don't like my crown guard I shape it to how I want.  But the best thing about a Phong is that you ask for what you want.  I also think the picture with that phong case with the very large lugs are from when he use to use Vietnam cases.  He has for the past 5 or so years, been getting cases from China.  He and his son are working on a 16660 case as we speak that is fully Rolex spec.  He is also possibly working on a 16710 case from my last conversation with Jensen.

 

While I have tons of respect for all vintage guys and I guess I am one, lol because my favorite watch is the 16610, I think it is just crazy to start talking about the profile of the back of the crown guard as a selling point on a case when if it the only problem, it can be solved with a Dremel tool and a little polish.