Winter 7922 / Reflections

[manodeoro]

On 1/14/2019 at 6:28 AM, jimcon11 said:

Thanks guys. Honestly, I think you will find the shaping of the hands very easy. I can barely lume a dial and my attempts to cut lug chamfers have been disastrous. I didn't even use magnification doing this... there's a lot of room for improvement. The JK hour hand has the perfect outer dimensions, it's just too fat everywhere 

 

The hardest thing for me, besides lume, has been getting a deep, even bronze finish on the hand surface. I have a bad habit of working by lamp light and it totally masks the luster of the hands and convinces me they are uniformly the right tone, then in natural light I realize they are half polished and half dull, mottled between brass and almost silver color, and usually way too bright and shiny, overpowering the gilt dial. Most of the gen hands I've seen have a tone even with the chapter ring or are even darker/more tarnished. I found one method that kind of works, using ammonia fumes, but the effect was pretty uneven. Anyone know how to darken and dull the hands without them just going silvery and rusty looking?

 

I added this absurd early-style second hand after noticing a couple gen Tudors with them. It's a bit too long, and I don't think it was ever original, especially for the early military 7922s in the big crown case, but it looks hilarious to me and the little dot way out there helps to emphasize the low beat movement. A luminous second hand is now an ISO standard for dive watches, so I'm told, and it's funny how these early tool watches met all the modern standards but in such a stylized and barely-functional way, i.e. the Rolex way 

 

 

 

 

Wonderfull job @jimcon11 ... I will try your method this week-end on my 6429 Commando hands

I recently found an almost proper handset after searching for one year, right overall dimensions but with a lume plot too thin and too much metal on the sides

So you definitely save me and my handset will be perfect ... supposing I can do the same modd you did without ruining those hands.

[jimcon11]

13 hours ago, manodeoro said:

 

Wonderfull job @jimcon11 ... I will try your method this week-end on my 6429 Commando hands

I recently found an almost proper handset after searching for one year, right overall dimensions but with a lume plot too thin and too much metal on the sides

So you definitely save me and my handset will be perfect ... supposing I can do the same modd you did without ruining those hands.

Maybe just try on some scrap hands first to get a feel for the technique..

 

After you get the commando hands right, I know your A/6538 is screaming for some flat Mercedes hands . For reference I used the JK hour hand and Raffles 6204 minute hand. For the second hand you're on your own.. I'm not aware of a perfect one besides the old HR big ball that isn't really available anymore.

[hanski]

This is great @jimcon11! Keep up the rigorous, detail-oriented work and keep sharing your process. Experimenting, sharing, and helping each other is what this is all about. 

[manodeoro]

Maybe just try on some scrap hands first to get a feel for the technique..
 
After you get the commando hands right, I know your A/6538 is screaming for some flat Mercedes hands . For reference I used the JK hour hand and Raffles 6204 minute hand. For the second hand you're on your own.. I'm not aware of a perfect one besides the old HR big ball that isn't really available anymore.

Thanks ... will do that.
Do you work from the upside or downside of the hands ?

About my A/6538 ... YES it needs better hands and thanks for the infos about JK and Raffles (which handset did you order from JK ?).
I first wanted to be certain I could achieve that crazy build (so much work and custom parts ... almost everything) before trying to source a perfect handset.
Now I will upgrade it with an ETA movement (still a 2813 inside) and better hands ... while also enjoying it on my wrist just as it is.


Envoyé de mon Moto G (5) Plus en utilisant Tapatalk

[jimcon11]

14 hours ago, manodeoro said:

 

 

Thanks ... will do that.
Do you work from the upside or downside of the hands ?

About my A/6538 ... YES it needs better hands and thanks for the infos about JK and Raffles (which handset did you order from JK ?).
I first wanted to be certain I could achieve that crazy build (so much work and custom parts ... almost everything) before trying to source a perfect handset.
Now I will upgrade it with an ETA movement (still a 2813 inside) and better hands ... while also enjoying it on my wrist just as it is.


Envoyé de mon Moto G (5) Plus en utilisant Tapatalk

 

 

I don't think it matters whether you work from above or below, as long as you keep the blade perpendicular to the hand itself (on the z axis). I ended up doing whatever was easiest based on the fact that I had to hold the hand in my left hand carefully without bending it. Just light pressure and many passes to keep things even, it's easy to go too far by accident. 

 

The Raffles 6204 minute hand is the full 13mm, which ended up being too long for my chapter ring. I'm not sure what the exact size of the chapter ring is on gen dials, but 26mm is right to the edge of my "gen spec" case, so my chapter ring is more like 25mm. Depending on the size of your chapter ring you might have to shorten the hand. I merely cut off the tip square and basically whittled a new point. I was worried that I'd never be able to make a good looking, even point, but again it wasn't as hard as I imagined. Just go easy because the damn things are 25 dollars a set 

 

JK hands: http://www.jkhorological.com/Product-detail.php?product-id=2477

The JK minute hand isn't terrible but it has some issues that are impossible to correct in my view.

 

Can't wait to see the result, your milsub is going to be a monster

 

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by jimcon11

[JSebWC]

Wow. Well done. That hand work turnout great. This week I had to sand down the tip of the hour hand on my Milgauss 1019 You know your deep in it when your shaping hands.

It is very delicate work but the results are well with it. Good job ! I like the seconds hand. Very unique. I have one on my 6350 and it’s very distinctive. Love it.


Awesome work bro.


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[jimcon11]

9 hours ago, JSebWC said:

Wow. Well done. That hand work turnout great. This week I had to sand down the tip of the hour hand on my Milgauss 1019 You know your deep in it when your shaping hands.

It is very delicate work but the results are well with it. Good job ! I like the seconds hand. Very unique. I have one on my 6350 and it’s very distinctive. Love it.


Awesome work bro.


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Thanks man. What's really bad is when you're browsing pics and you see a nice old big crown listed in the "Superlative ROLEX" catalog as a model example, and then you notice  that the minute hand doesn't reach the chapter ring 

 

 

[Bart Cordell]

Same thoughts when looking at Mondani Submariner story. Some 6538, 6536 and 5510 have short minutes hands. Perhaps a service replacement?

[jimcon11]

On 1/20/2019 at 5:01 AM, Bart Cordell said:

Same thoughts when looking at Mondani Submariner story. Some 6538, 6536 and 5510 have short minutes hands. Perhaps a service replacement?

  

I think so. I've noticed some 7928s, 5512s, and 5513s have the long flat hands well into the 60s, but they always look original, i.e. old, so I don't think the flat hands were often used at service centers, if ever.

 

It's just a little disturbing that I've come to care about these little details more than the person who is about to drop 6 figures on this watch with incorrect parts  

[Alan72]

So here is my attempt using your decal,I've gone for a Radium dusty effect,the lume is maybe a bit more textured than I would have liked but it's more noticeable in photos than in person

[jimcon11]

15 hours ago, Alan72 said:

So here is my attempt using your decal,I've gone for a Radium dusty effect,the lume is maybe a bit more textured than I would have liked but it's more noticeable in photos than in person

Nice job man. It hurts me to age a dial once I have one nicely made but it needs to be done.

 

I'm planning on doing a final dial eventually, with gold electro-plating, white paint under the lume markers, better lume, and textured a bit like yours. From all the pics I have seen, the Tudor dials tend to look fairly matte now; I'm not sure how glossy they were originally but probably not as much as the concurrent Rolex dials.

 

Now how to get the raised ink effect on the text... that is the final frontier 

[Alan72]

So here's my finished article,jk/tiger concept hands and heavily aged dial

[Timelord]

All I can say is that this has been a great thread!!   I could not add anything close to what others haven't already done!  Thoroughly enjoyed it as it as been entertaining as well as educational as most threads are on this forum.  This filled a large gap of ignorance in my understanding of this particular build., almost enticing me to take up one of these projects myself!  

 

As for winter, being a good title  for this post, it is one of the cosiest times of the year to fulfil indoor activities such as these ones, which otherwise would always be delayed!  Thanks for sharing and enjoy to good Health!

Edited February 26, 2019 by Timelord

[jimcon11]

On 2/25/2019 at 9:04 PM, Alan72 said:

So here's my finished article,jk/tiger concept hands and heavily aged dial

Nice man, that insert is accurate for an early 7922, See

 

On 2/25/2019 at 10:37 PM, Timelord said:

All I can say is that this has been a great thread!!   I could not add anything close to what others haven't already done!  Thoroughly enjoyed it as it as been entertaining as well as educational as most threads are on this forum.  This filled a large gap of ignorance in my understanding of this particular build., almost enticing me to take up one of these projects myself!  

 

As for winter, being a good title  for this post, it is one of the cosiest times of the year to fulfil indoor activities such as these ones, which otherwise would always be delayed!  Thanks for sharing and enjoy to good Health!

Thanks, I'm glad the thread was helpful. The 7922 is a special watch to me, something about the dial text captivated me when I first saw it. I love the calligraphic styling, and the fact that it flies under the radar being a "big crown Submariner" but not a Rolex. I've tried to learn everything I can about this reference, but I haven't gone as far as ordering books or corresponding with collectors or historians. I wish I had become interested in this watch 20 years ago, when you could actually buy one for peanuts. Collectors have realized how close these are to the famous 6538 and prices are in the stratosphere.

 

There are several other vintage watches that I'd like to research and replicate to this degree, but you can only wear one watch at a time and I hate seeing them sitting on the shelf

 

 

[Nanuq]

That's a beautiful result.      That said, never say never ... just when you think it's done something else comes along.     

 

Look at the "case" side of your 8mm crown.  See how smooth it is?  A gen crown has thin stainless wrapped over a brass form, and you can see the rough edges on the inner face.  I'm sorry I don't have a better picture, but here are two to show what I mean.  I bet you could take some jeweler's tools and scribe the inner face of your crown to make it look more like the gen piece.  With your skills it shouldn't be hard at all.

 

Athaya crown

 

 

Gen crown

[Alan72]

Thanks, I'm glad the thread was helpful. The 7922 is a special watch to me, something about the dial text captivated me when I first saw it. I love the calligraphic styling, and the fact that it flies under the radar being a "big crown Submariner" but not a Rolex. I've tried to learn everything I can about this reference, but I haven't gone as far as ordering books or corresponding with collectors or historians. I wish I had become interested in this watch 20 years ago, when you could actually buy one for peanuts. Collectors have realized how close these are to the famous 6538 and prices are in the stratosphere.
 
There are several other vintage watches that I'd like to research and replicate to this degree, but you can only wear one watch at a time and I hate seeing them sitting on the shelf:unknw:
 
 

That's the insert picture that I saw that made me buy the phong insert,

That's a beautiful result.      That said, never say never ... just when you think it's done something else comes along.     
 
Look at the "case" side of your 8mm crown.  See how smooth it is?  A gen crown has thin stainless wrapped over a brass form, and you can see the rough edges on the inner face.  I'm sorry I don't have a better picture, but here are two to show what I mean.  I bet you could take some jeweler's tools and scribe the inner face of your crown to make it look more like the gen piece.  With your skills it shouldn't be hard at all.
 
Athaya crown

 
 
Gen crown

That's a good idea, I'll have a look for some tools and try to scribe some lines on my crown

[Nanuq]

Here are some better photos of 702 and 703 crowns courtesy of Ubi.  They're wrapped the same way as the 8mm so this is the look you're after.

 

 

 

 

[jimcon11]

19 hours ago, Nanuq said:

That's a beautiful result.      That said, never say never ... just when you think it's done something else comes along.     

 

Look at the "case" side of your 8mm crown.  See how smooth it is?  A gen crown has thin stainless wrapped over a brass form, and you can see the rough edges on the inner face.  I'm sorry I don't have a better picture, but here are two to show what I mean.  I bet you could take some jeweler's tools and scribe the inner face of your crown to make it look more like the gen piece.  With your skills it shouldn't be hard at all.

That's interesting, I certainly hadn't noticed this before. It looks like an almost uniform tool mark from cutting the teeth that is left unfinished. Or is it just a by-product of jacketing the brass? My knowledge of metalwork is woeful. I have a spare Athaya crown that's all chewed up (from bending my tube slightly to the correct pitch) so I might experiment a bit. 

 

The Athaya crown looks really accurate to me, but this is one issue. Another is that the Brevet and crown markings are a bit flat and less 3D than gen.  And I believe the concavely curved "top cap" portion after the teeth is a little short, and I mean just a hair. 

 

I genuinely appreciate the feedback. It seems like constructive criticism is often lacking in these forums because nobody wants to sour someone's mood on a watch they are happy with, but it's totally necessary in order to achieve the best possible work and something you're truly satisfied with.  This watch looks great in some lighting conditions but rather off in others. I'm adding this to my long list of improvements:

 

-early 7922 case engravings

-gen 390 movement (have it, needs slight modification to fit the case)

-gold plated dial instead of brass, with more matte textured surface, slightly increase chapter ring size

-smoother lume work, less yellow color, and white paint under the plots (this is probably the biggest issue for me)

-better evenness on hand aging, slim down minute hand a bit (right now it completely covers the batons markers and I think it should be slightly thinner)

-proper big ball seconds hand

-gen insert (mkiii with big serifs is my favorite )

-gen crown or roughen inner edges 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nanuq]

That's the spirit! I thought I'd built an admirable 6538 until a couple guys here, when pressed, pointed out things I never even saw. That led me down a better path.

One more tiny detail, count the "teeth" on a gen 8mm crown vs. the Athaya crown. That's an arm's length visual that's pretty easy to pick out.  You can refer back to my two earlier photos.

[Bart Cordell]

My small (Big ?) contribution to this thread

There are many faults that I accept on my builds but the crown is a detail to which I attach a lot of importance...

Edited February 28, 2019 by Bart Cordell

[jimcon11]

On 2/28/2019 at 2:51 PM, Nanuq said:

That's the spirit! I thought I'd built an admirable 6538 until a couple guys here, when pressed, pointed out things I never even saw. That led me down a better path.

One more tiny detail, count the "teeth" on a gen 8mm crown vs. the Athaya crown. That's an arm's length visual that's pretty easy to pick out.  You can refer back to my two earlier photos.

Hmm I got 24 for both 

 

Your big crown is amazing; it's greater than the sum of its parts, even though they're mostly gen. I'd take it over almost any of the real 6538s I see for sale. I'm doing the best I can with mine, but I kind of like pushing the envelope of the "no gen parts" build. Like you said, it's all about seeing the details that aren't generally too noticable, but can nonetheless throw the complete package off.

 

On 2/28/2019 at 4:56 PM, Bart Cordell said:

My small (Big ?) contribution to this thread

There are many faults that I accept on my builds but the crown is a detail to which I attach a lot of importance...

Thanks for the reference there, that crown really is a beauty. I'm starting to see that the Athaya crown does not hold up to scrutiny quite as well as I thought, but I still think it's a great aftermarket part in that it captures the spirit of the real thing nicely, unlike a lot of aftermarket parts. It would be great if Adrian stepped up his Rolex game and developed some more parts: hands, crystals, bezels, etc.

Edited March 2, 2019 by jimcon11

[Alan72]

I've had a little go at scribing the athaya crown, can't really get a decent in focus picture but I think with a bit more practice I can get a better result