Smiths Deluxe-plorer build

[peterhorstmann]

Dear Forum, sorry for the bad pun in the title...

 

I'm in the process of putting together my first watch and wanted to show off some pictures of the status and perhaps get some expert opinions here or there!

 

Here is the story: I was browsing the web for explorer homages and found timefactors, a UK microbrand which owns many of the old english watch maker brands. Under the old "Smiths" name, they are making a really nice 36mm explorer 1016 homage called the Everest:

(https://www.timefactors.com/smiths.htm)

They also make the same watch with the original Smiths logo:

 

Looks beautiful I think.

I got interested in the connection between Smiths and the 1016, and it turns out both watches accompanied Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay on their ascent of Everest in 1953.

 

Here is a picture of the original Smiths:

(https://mrjoneswatches.com/products/smiths-edmund-hillary-pattern)

 

Now, the sane thing to do yould be to order one of the Smiths from timefactors and have it done with, however... I always find that I have the biggest and longest lasting appreciation for things that put togther myself and so that's the route I am hoping to take.

 

So... I found a nice patina-ed vintage Smiths deluxe dial on ebay and it's much nicer in real life than in this picture:

 

 

I think this is from a dressier Smiths watch rather than one of their field watches, but I really like it. The pattern reminds me a bit of the pre-Explorer Rolex 6298 Precision, or maybe of the new white dialed Seiko Alpinists.

 

Next I got a 36mm oyster case from ebay, after someone here on the forum kindly encouranged me to trust in it's waterproofability. The case arrived really fast after only two weeks from China and looks amazing.

 

Of course I had to make a quick mock-up to see how things look, and here are some pictures from today:

 

 

 

 

(There pictures don't do the reality justice, I didn't know how hard it is to take good pictures of a watch...)

 

Of course, nothing works yet. There is no movement inside and the hands are from another watch and not attached to anything. But I think it looks quite good! This might be no news to the people on this forum but man are these 36mm oyster cases elegant...

 

So next to do is find a movement and hands and I am hoping to get some help with choosing here.

 

• The case is designed for an ETA 2836. Now, from what I understand, the difference between the ETA 2824 and the 2836 are in the movement height and the speed at which the  date changes. The latter I don't care about for obvious reasons. The movement height, however, makes me think. I understand that this is in principle important because you want the crown  hole in the case to line up with the winding stem hole in the movement (sorry if I'm messing up the terminology, is this hole in the movement called the keyless works?). But does this lining up not depend strongly on the thickness of the dial? In my case the dial is domed a bit, so I suspect that the movement, if fitted flush to the backside of the dial, is slightly to high in the case. I am thinking I might need a spacer, but if I start messing with spacers then I might as well buy the cheaper ETA 2824, which is smaller in height?
• As for the movements, I have my eye on the sellita SW220 (if I go 2838) or SW200 (if I go 2824) and I found this swiss seller on ebay who sells both. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOVEMENT-AUTOMATIC-SELLITA-SW220-1-TOP-GRADE-BLUE-SCREWS-COMPATIBLE-ETA-2836/132962868592?hash=item1ef5345d70:g:1msAAOSwW9NZ4A1t
• I figured the chance of these just working out of the box without requireing a costly service after 6 weeks of running is higher than with a chinese movement? If I buy a chinese seagull ETA 2836 clone and need to get ot serviced, the price will be similiar to what the sellita costs new. Does this make sense? Also... the vanity of wanting a swiss movement...
• The dial obviously does not have the right feet to fit into an ETA movement, so I need to figure that out to. The case came with a movement ring. Could I just glue that onto the back of the dial? Or should I use these sticky dial dots?
• Hands: to be decided. Seringe hands like in the vintage smiths would be great.
• Drilled-through lug holes: do watch makers do this or are they going to kick me out of the store? I find it would suit the tool watch look of the watch perfectly and it's convenient of course.
• what do I need to do to get the watch waterproof? Ideally to 10ATM. I work with ultra high vacuum apparatus, so I know a thing or two about finding and removing leaks, but this is different I feel. Do I need to grease the gaskets? Also the ines in the threaded crown?
• I'd like to get an oyster bracelet for the watch at some point. The same seller who sold the case to me has some (I suspect this is raffles dials really), does anybody know if these are nice? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20MM-OLD-STYLE-SOLID-STEEL-RIVET-OYSTER-BAND-BRACELET-FOR-36MM-EXPLORER-WATCH/353071310141?hash=item5234b0a53d:g:Bo0AAOSwIJdbgyq7

 

That's it for know! I'm eager to know if you think this is a ridiculous plan or perhaps totally impossible. And I am really greatfull for any advice or pep talk!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by peterhorstmann

[Justasgood]

Very nice project and a very classy looking watch.

[automatico]

"The case is designed for an ETA 2836. Now, from what I understand, the difference between the ETA 2824 and the 2836 are in the movement height and the speed at which the  date changes. The latter I don't care about for obvious reasons."

 

The thickness difference between the 2824 and 2836 is because of the extra thickness of the day of the week disc and calendar spacer thickness on the 2836.

An eta 2836 with the date works removed will display a slightly taller hour wheel, sweep second post, and canon pinion than a 2824 thereby allowing more room for the hands above the dial.  This can be a big help on some projects.

You may also consider the 'beat rate'...an eta 2824/36 runs at 28800 beats per hour where the old Smiths watches probably ran at 18000 bph or 21600 bph.  A 'fast beat' 28800 bph movement will not look right in an old watch that is supposed to have a lower beat rate.

                 

"The movement height, however, makes me think. I understand that this is in principle important because you want the crown hole in the case to line up with the winding stem hole in the movement (sorry if I'm messing up the terminology, is this hole in the movement called the keyless works?).

 

No, the mechanical parts...set bridge, set lever, winding clutch etc are the 'keyless works.'  Substitute 'setting and winding parts' for 'keyless works' to make more sense. 

 

"But does this lining up not depend strongly on the thickness of the dial?"

 

Not really.  Dials are usually .3mm to .5mm thick and this does not make a lot of difference.  The critical difference is the distance between the top side of the dial when mounted on the movement and the center of the hole in the movement where the stem goes into the movement...the stem needs to be centered in the case tube hole in the case when the dial/movement combo is mounted in the case. 

If you put a spacer or thicker dial on a movement to lower the stem hole in the case, it will in effect also make the hands closer to the dial.  Visualize it.

 

"In my case the dial is domed a bit, so I suspect that the movement, if fitted flush to the backside of the dial, is slightly to high in the case. I am thinking I might need a spacer, but if I start messing with spacers then I might as well buy the cheaper ETA 2824, which is smaller in height?"

 

A domed dial's thickness compared to a flat dial's thickness depends on how the outer edge of the dial is made.  A dial may be relatively flat around the edge and domed toward the center...this will not make the movement mount lower in the case.

In other words, it depends.

 

"Drilled-through lug holes: do watch makers do this or are they going to kick me out of the store?"

"I find it would suit the tool watch look of the watch perfectly and it's convenient of course."

 

This is specialized work, not for the uninitiated.  Many watch whittlers will say they can do and end up ruining the case.  I can do it successfully (most of the time) but not on anyone else's watch.  My past mistakes prevent me from working on anything that does not belong to me...a hard earned lesson.

"What do I need to do to get the watch waterproof? Ideally to 10ATM.  Do I need to grease the gaskets?  Also the ines in the threaded crown?"

 

Cases type like the DJ type case in your top picture have three main places that may leak:

1...Crystal.

2...Case tube\crown.

3...Case back.

 

Going through WR procedure steps one at a time takes too much typing but you can find all the info either in this forum or scattered about on the internet.

Most O ring gaskets can get by with high grade silicone grease.

 

If 'lines' = threads.  They need a small bit of lubricant to prevent galling and corrosion. 

I use Krytox 205 on case threads and gaskets. 

People with a lot of $$ use Fomblin.

 

     $170.00 +/-

     About $25 or $30 on average

 

 

 

[ceejay]

How about getting a Smiths 27CS movement to go in it. They come up for sale pretty regularly.

They are a quality, English movements and you could use genuine Smiths hands.

 

Cons are, you would have to get a custom movement ring made and they are manual wind.

 

Drilling lug holes in stainless cases is an absolute [censored] of a job!

 

Good luck and keep us updated, interesting project!

[alligoat]

325 pounds is $400usd- Not a bad price for a Smiths watch- a cool homage watch of sorts.

Good luck with your build, hope you get it all sorted out.

[peterhorstmann]

Thanks for the encouraging words and advice, I've come to the right place!

 

I'm pretty much sold on the idea of getting the Sellita SW220. I know a vintage low-beat, hand wound movement would be more authentic, but this is not an exact replica of anything so I think I'm okay with this violation! Also I am hoping for reliability and ease of service should it be necessary.

 

Before I order one, could somebody confirm that my understanding of the spacers and all are accurate? I made this sketch to illustrate how I think I can make things line up.

 

 

So if I'm not mistaken, then a thicker dial spacer than the one supplied with the movement will make things work with the domed dial? And yes I agree that if I go this route I will be happy to have a longer post for the hands, as this will move the hands further away from the dial. Otherwise they might be too close.

 

My other question relates to removing the day and date wheel works. Is it necessary to remove them? I'd prefer to do it, especially if that means the crown positions for quicksetting them would no longer exist. But I'm not sure if this will be the case and how hard it is to remove them.

 

Last question: do I need to fix the dial to the movement spacer? Or do the movement clamps fix everything in place sufficiently? If it's necessary to fix things, I could glue at this point:

 

 

That's it for now. Thanks for your help!

 

@ Justasgood,

 

funny enough I think we have both those lubricants in the lab where I work. I might be able to "borrow" some there!

@ alligoat

yea I agree, timefactors has a lot of cool stuff!

[ceejay]

Things to consider...

 

Your movement cannot move up & down in the case, it has to be at a fixed height inline with the stem & tube.

That is your reference point, if you like.

 

your dial spacer will then fill the gap between the movement and whatever space there will be to the dial sitting snug against the case.

The dial spacer can be glued to the back of the dial, if need be.

If your dial feet cannot be used (highly likely) then you can clamp the whole thing into position using the case clamps.

You now probably, depending on movement & internal case diameter need a movement ring to surround the movement to prevent it moving sideways (laterally)

 

Once all this alignment is achieved, your cannon pinion on the movement will need to be high enough so you minute hand clears hour hand.

This will be tricky as you won't know what height you need until everything is clamped down.

 

The calendar works on the movement can be safely  removed. It's simple...for someone who know what they're doing! It will leave an unused detent on the setting lever spring (when you pull the crown out to set the time)

 

If you're lucky, this could all fall together easily. My experience tells, what looks and sounds easy, isn't!

Edited May 13, 2020 by ceejay

[peterhorstmann]

Thanks for your answer! I think my understanding is correct then. Whether the hour hand will have enough clearence from the dial I don't know... If it doesn't, do  cannon pinions come in different heights? So that I could swap the stock one for a taller one?

 

The case came with a movement ring, that's blue in my drawing. However, it's plastic and not very nice, so I am considering getting one from Raffles/ebay made of brass. I think that would be much nicer, but I need to compare the dimensions still. You're right that the feet of the dial are nowhere near the correct location or thickness. I thick I'll need to clip/file them off and hope the dial won't move around...

 

When I get the movement I'll probably order hands at the same time. I'm aiming at seringe hands like the old smiths had, but they seem to be rare!

 

I'm considering these, the black ones specifically:

 

But I'm afraid the lume will look too green in day light? Does anybody know of other seringe hands options for ETA 2836?

 

 

 

 

[peterhorstmann]

I think Rolex 6204 hands would also look good in silver, but I couldn't find those yet...

[ceejay]

I like those syringe hands. You could easily remove the lume and mix a little epoxy with off-white flour etc. to match the dial (providing you don't want them to glow!)

Whatever hands you get, the lume will be off compared to the dial.

 

And yes, cannon pinions and hour wheels come in varying heights.

[peterhorstmann]

Quick update: I'm waiting for the Sellita movement and hands to arrive from Switzerland any day now and also the brass movement ring from Raffles.

 

In the mean time, can somebody tell me what tool I need to tighten the case back? Pipe wrench? Just kidding!

 

Also, does somebody know of a nice oyster bracelet in the  sub-50£/$ bracket? I'd like to get one with solid end links but don't know if the case I have is close enough to the real thing for those to fit?

 

I'm tempted to order the one that the new smiths come with:

 

It's a rivited one with solid end links, milled clasp and an embossed smiths logo on the clasp but again I don't know how likely it is to between the lugs of my case...

 

Cheers for now.

 

 

[peterhorstmann]

nevermind my question about the case back tool, I found this excellent thread:
https://rwg.cc/topic/102236-waterproof-or-not-a-guide-to-help-your-rep-survive-the-drink/

 

[automatico]

"can somebody tell me what tool I need to tighten the case back?"

 

I would go with a 'screwball' because they cause no damage.

Example...eBay item number  392295568047

[peterhorstmann]

Thanks for your answer! Not what I expected... Does that really have enough grip to tighten the case back watertight? I guess the risk is low: if it doesn't work it'll just go over to the kids.

[JSebWC]

Cool project. Look fwd to seeing it done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[automatico]

"Does that really have enough grip to tighten the case back watertight?"

 

Yes, they will surprise you.  I always try them first before going to a case tool.

All you are really doing when tightening a case back is compressing a rubber gasket. 

The factory's reason for tightening a case back more than necessary is to keep guys like us out of 'their' watch. 

[peterhorstmann]

 

@ JSebWC: Thanks, I appreciate that!

 

@ automatico: that makes sense what you say about compressing the gasket, but I guess one benefit to tightening strongly is less risk of the case back coming loose?

 

I feel like the cleanest way to close the watch would be using one of these dyes?

But I have no idea if that would fit to the oyster case replica I have...

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by peterhorstmann

[automatico]

"I guess one benefit to tightening strongly is less risk of the case back coming loose?"

 

If a case back is fairly snug it will be Ok.  Try the case back on the case first without a gasket to make sure it screws all the way down and bottoms out against the case without it pressing against the movement or winding rotor (make sure the rotor still turns).  You can put a dot on the case back with a Magic Marker etc. even with the crown for a tightening reference so you can tell if the case back is seated after the gasket has been fitted.

 

Note...Most case backs with round section O rings will bottom out when tightened down but some case backs do not seat solid against the case after the gasket has been installed...some cases with flat section gaskets for example.  They will need to be tightened down enough to provide a good seal and not come loose but this is basically a judgement call. 

Always test water resistance a few times without a movement/dial first.

 

The case tool pictured above is fine IF the case back is oem spec and the tool is too.  The standard die for rlx 36mm DJ cases is (Bergeon etc) number 5 (29.5mm).  Some China made Bergeon look-alike case tools are out of spec and will slip on the case back. 

Otoh some of the out of spec dies will fit out of spec case backs. 

If you see a rolex type case back with circular 'scratch rings' on the outside diameter of the case back it means the case tool has slipped.  This can happen even when the back and die are oem spec if the die jumps out of mesh with the splines.  You sometimes have to push down really hard to keep the die engaged when removing an overtight case back.

 

They make pretty good fake Bergeon 5700 case tools:

eBay item number  173174124962  for example.

This tool will make them come, bleed, or blister.  Ha!  

 

 

[peterhorstmann]

The Sellita SW220 arrived from Switzerland today! It's an absolute piece of fine art... I will post pictures later today.

 

I have one question already: I expected the stem to have one position furthest in (if that makes sense, pushed all the way into the movement) where it has some wiggle room in and out and rotates freely, so that it disenganges while screwing down the crown. But it appears that the furthest-in position is the handwinding position in one direction and ratcheting very finely in the other direction. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks for tuning in!

[peterhorstmann]

 

Such a stunning piece of engineering! Almost too pretty to hide behind stainless steel...

 

So if I later decide to remove the calendar works, would I just remove the circlip (48), lift the day wheel off and then pull the date wheel sideways gently until it's free? I think I fould a video on youtube where someone shows that, but it's a bit hard to see. Do I then need to remove the parts 44, 45, 46 via screws 100 and 108 or is it better to leave those mechanics in place?

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by peterhorstmann

[peterhorstmann]

10 hours ago, peterhorstmann said:

The Sellita SW220 arrived from Switzerland today! It's an absolute piece of fine art... I will post pictures later today.

 

I have one question already: I expected the stem to have one position furthest in (if that makes sense, pushed all the way into the movement) where it has some wiggle room in and out and rotates freely, so that it disenganges while screwing down the crown. But it appears that the furthest-in position is the handwinding position in one direction and ratcheting very finely in the other direction. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks for tuning in!

Nevermind, I get it now. The crown has a spring in it that does that. Steep learning curve right here...

[peterhorstmann]

Okay quick update!

Of course I made the mistake of removing the stem while it's in the winding position which screwed up the keyless works. Embarassing, didn't do enough reading...

But with the help of the internet I managed to rebuild the keyless works, which was daunting but felt pretty good once successfully completed! For doing that I had to remove the day and date wheel and while I was at it I also removed some more parts of the calendar works. Now the stem in the day/date changing position just turns freely, which is exactly how I wanted it.

 

 

I then used a Dremel to remove the massive dial feet off the dial and could then fit everything for the first time:

 

 

So far so nice, however, the movement sits too low by quite a bit, which I did expect because the dial is convex:

 

 

(note how the stem is not centered in the crown tube)

 

So I need to shim the movement such that it sits higher. I'm planning on making a ring which goes between the dial spacer and the dial. I hope the cannon pinion and hour wheel will be tall enough! If they aren't, I can also make a spacer to sit in the dial seat between the case and dial. That might be visible and look weired though...

 

Not sure yet how I'll make the spacer ring. Happy for suggestions! I might need to bribe the guys at work operating the laser cutter into helping me...

 

 

 

 

[automatico]

"Not sure yet how I'll make the spacer ring."

 

Did you use the original spacer ring that came with the movement?  If you did maybe it would be better to have a thicker spacer made and eliminate the original because stacking spacers is usually not a good idea.

 

I have posted this a few times but can not find it so here it is again...

When I run into this problem, I make a brass spacer thick enough so the dial can be cemented to the spacer.  It is a hassle to make a spacer on a lathe but if you have laser cutter friends it might not be too hard to do. 

As long as the case has a groove machined inside it for case clamps, a spacer like this will usually work Ok.  The dial is cemented to the spacer after it is placed over the movement then the hands are installed.  Next the assembly is put in the case and the case clamps and screws installed.  Make sure there is enough tension on the movement/dial combo to hold it all in place.  You can bend the case clamps to provide more tension if needed. 

Sorta like making a cheese sandwich.

 

Sometimes I have had to make case clamps out of stronger steel than what most case clamps are made of and I use auto valve adjusting feeler gauge stock of the correct thickness.  Drill the hole for the screw first then shape the clamp with a cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool etc being careful not to get it too hot. 

 

The stem needs to be pretty close to the center of the case tube but the 'telescoping clutch' on the screw down crown will allow for a little misalignment...but not as much as shown in your picture. 

If the hour wheel/CP/SS pinion are too short you will need a taller set of cogs.  If the case does not have a case clamp groove...that is another ball of hot wax. 

 

Watches may be little but they are a big hassle to work on.  It's always something... 

[peterhorstmann]

Thanks @automatico, that's excellent info.

 

The idea with chopping up a feeler gauge is great, just ordered one. That's also useful for making a makeshift spacer to find out what height I need. I'll probably just stick stacks of feeler gauge sheet to the spacer ring that came with the movement to shim it higher. Unfortunately I don't have access to a lathe at the moment... I wish I did, they seem to be essential to this kind of watch tinkering! (And a mill for drilling those lugholes through, which I still want to do at some point)

 

And yes thankfully the case has grooves for countering the case clamps. No idea how I would fix the movement in place otherwise! I know that both my Seiko 5s don't have case clamps, I think they just have a pushfit movement spacer ring which locks everything in place. And the dial is fixed to he movement somehow.

[oldtools]

There are some some very talented mod/repair people sharing their services here on RWG.  They can make you a spacer or drill your lugholes.

 

https://rwg.cc/forum/179-repairmodification-services/

 

Here is a post from Neckyzips showing some of the work he is capable of.