Choice...genuine or replica?

[automatico]

I have an MBK 55xx case that has had an ETA 2846 or 2879 in it for about 5+ years.  It started out with a rolex 1520 about 7 years back but it was removed because I have bad feelings about wearing a watch with a genuine rlx movement so I stuck an ETA 2846 in it for a while, then later a nos ETA 2879.

Why?
Because genuine 15xx movements are getting old and worn out, and parts are expensive.  They are also not as rugged as a swiss ETA 28xx in my experience.
So what is the point of this post?
I just wanted to say that I would rather wear a watch like the one above than any genuine or Frankenstein rlx watch with a rlx movement.

 

[alligoat]

I've certainly quit building frankens with Rolex movements. I've got two of them and recently beat up my SS 1803 playing in the attic- crushed the plastic crystal and a few internal parts. Luckily, $500 later my watchmaker was able to get it back up running. I'm a little more careful with my 5508 franken- no water for it. 

Now days I think the best bet is to build your rep/franken with an eta movement. I like the 2846-2 which is getting harder to find and I've gotten good mileage out of a couple of 2824-2s in a 1016 and a Rolex Commando. I'm using the Seiko NH35A and NH36A in a couple of watches these days also- you can't beat it for $40. I pulled the old 7S26 out of this SKX031and installed a new NH36A- should be good for 10-15 years hopefully

[automatico]

"I pulled the old 7S26 out of this SKX031and installed a new NH36A- should be good for 10-15 years hopefully."

 

Never had much luck with the 7S26.  We sold them in a store and a lot of them came back for one reason or another.  Heard the NH36A is quite a bit better.

 

I am fine with the MBK to wear when the mech watch mood strikes but still have a few rlx watches and a cigar box full of 15xx movements/parts/crowns/crystals etc and here is what worries me:

 

Will prices go up much more for 6605 and 16xx DJ, 5500 AK, 6694, 1500 OPD etc or will the prices drop?  Sell now or later?  This is mostly what I have left in a safety deposit box.  Every third person I see is wearing a smart watch (if wearing a watch at all) and it brings back memories of the 'quartz crisis'.  There were bargains to be had but I did not buy the right stuff.  As usual.  

I figure parts will stay high as long as rlx still has their 'NPFY' policy so the parts do not bother me too much.

 

Where to sell the watches?  eBay harbors a band of crooks that make a living taking parts out of watches and sending them back DOA, claiming they were defective or claiming the box was empty making it too dicey for me.  I dropped out of the NAWCC because the internet siphoned off the wristwatch guys I traded with at shows and all the local watch traders have stopped trading.  Besides that the Wu Flu is keeping them hiding at home with the curtains pulled.

 

Last but not least...I ain't gettin' any younger and my wife can not tell genuine from a $12 HK Special.

 

Watches $10 each!

Your Choice!

 

[horologist]

This topic is the very heart and soul of why most of us ( if not all of us ) belong to a forum such as this and why such a forum exists!  Needless to say,I agree with everything said!!!  Do I prefer a replica or a genuine?  If the parts issue  and price did not matter, I personally think that they are both performers made of the same material where one has been given more quality control over the other.  The same cake baked by different chefs!  Since I have downsized tremendously because of the parts issue and exchange rate have become unfavourable, I only own two genuine and three replicas!   I do not see one as a diamond and the other as a zirconia!  I personally prefer the eta module over the Rolex caliber did simplicity and robustness!  Less moving parts!  I just hate the seconds pin post and the jewel under tension just under the calendar works!
 

I guess what gives Rolex that unique feature is the oyster case and that is immediately recognised amongst others having an eye for timepieces very much like the old VW beetle in a traffic of other cars!  It is that oyster style  and design no matter what label is on the dial where Rolex is more of a noun rather than a brand name! The same is true of the thermos flask which is really the brand name rather than the bottle that it represents, but we still refer to these types of bottles as thermos flasks!
 

sadly if is not just Rolex that has treated its patrons this way!  Omega have done the same and so too others will follow! To be honest I am also disappointed with the eta movement because of parts Issue as I have three duds ( a genuine and two clones) with stuffed up hair springs which most watchmakers I know hate replacing them from the bridge because of how the stud is mount3d as opposed to screwed in place!  I attempt3d it myself and caused more damage! 

 

23 hours ago, automatico said:

 The trademark is false but that's life.  Politicians, lawyers, sales reps, alphabet/cable news etc lie 24/7/365 and get away with it so I figure watch dials can too.   

NPFY = NGRFM   
Comments welcome.

Great comment!!! I could not have put it better myself!  It fairly much summarises real life embedded in a fake world of the image it deceives when seeing how many have Life time mortgages, cars in high finance from many moons ago and a chain of debts just to tell Mr. Jones next door “look at me”

[mir36]

You definitely need to do a yard sale here

Also, Rolex movements are now being reliably replicated (4130, 3135) and conceivably Rolex’s NPFY possibly is already backfiring. Someone will come fill the void legally or illegally. 

[automatico]

"...Rolex movements are now being reliably replicated (4130, 3135) and conceivably Rolex’s NPFY possibly is already backfiring.  Someone will come fill the void legally or illegally."

 

You are right.  The replica movements are a good start but they have no spare parts network.  Yet.

 

RWC basically used an obsolete law on the books intended to protect American watch makers against cheap foreign competition to allow their current sharp practices.  

 

Interesting:

https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/memorandum-united-states-response-motion-rolex-watch-usa-inc-order-terminating

 

On a similar note...a friend needed parts for a copy machine 20 or 25 years ago and IBM would not sell the parts, they said he had to buy a high $$ service contract to have it fixed.  He had a few 'influential friends' who got the Feds after them and they sent the parts...free of charge.  

RWC could be forced to sell parts if there was a heavy push against them in court but that will probably never happen because no one really cares except a few repair shops and there are less and less of them every year.   

 

Goliath vs Goliath...

Anyone remember when Costco beat Omega/Swatch when Omega sued them for selling their watches?  

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1689936.html

I remember seeing new rolex watches at Sam's Wholesale Club.  Iirc RWC took a run at Sam's/Waldo Marto because of it.  Costco still has a new rlx or three for sale now and then. 

 

The swiss used to make a lot of junk and were famous for their fake 'American' pocket watches and cheapo pin lever watches.  I remember seeing 'swiss made!' pin lever watches in display carousels on truck stop and restaurant counters for about $7.95 when I was a kid.  Still have one or two.

Oris went so far as to make a pin lever movement that would pass the COSC test, cal 652.

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/the-pin-pallet-chronometer-oris-calibre-652.1927714/

 

Heard this when working in a MC shop but it may be BS...Harley D threatened to take a certain Japan MC brand to court because their V twin cruiser 'sounded like' a Harley D.

The Japan MC company told HD they would buy a big chunk of HD stock and turn it into a lawnmower factory (or something similar).  HD shut up.

HD is having the Street 750 made in India...HD's fake Indian.  Ha!  Polaris Industries makes 'genuine' Indians in Iowa.

"Since the American motorcycle brand made its debut in India in 2009, Harley-Davidson has sold over 25,000 motorcycles, with the made-in-India Harley-Davidson Street 750 leading the sales numbers."

 

 

 

 

 

[jimcon11]

7 hours ago, automatico said:

 

RWC basically used an obsolete law on the books intended to protect American watch makers against cheap foreign competition to allow their current sharp practices.  

 

Interesting:

https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/memorandum-united-states-response-motion-rolex-watch-usa-inc-order-terminating

 

 

 

I think those laws came to be as an attempt to save American watchmaking, which U.S. policy inadvertently killed by diverting domestic brands (which held a vast majority of the market share) to production of military instruments in WW2. It's sad really, in all likelihood the forums here would read Elgin, Hamilton, Gruen, Waltham Area if not for wartime decree and the ingenuity of the Swiss to capitalize on the situation.

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by jimcon11

[automatico]

"I think those laws came to be as an attempt to save American watchmaking, which U.S. policy inadvertently killed by diverting domestic brands (which held a vast majority of the market share) to production of military instruments in WW2. It's sad really, in all likelihood the forums here would read Elgin, Hamilton, Gruen, Waltham Area if not for wartime decree and the ingenuity of the Swiss to capitalize on the situation."

 

You are right.  During WWII, USA watch companies went to military watch, bomb timer, ship chronometer etc production thereby allowing the swiss to gain inroads into the civilian watch market and the US brands never recovered. 

[jimcon11]

On 7/23/2020 at 3:18 PM, automatico said:

 

I have quite a few 1930s through the mid 1960s USA made wristwatches and most are high quality.  Many had snap back non WR cases but others came in steel and gold filled WR type cases that were pretty good but in reality most of them were more suited to being called 'dust resistant

 

I wonder what would have happened if the American companies had kept to civilian production and didn't lose that several years of technical development to the war. They seem to me like some of the most critical years in the history of watchmaking. The 40s Rolex bubblebacks, for instance, exhibit all the DNA of the first sports watches of the 50s, and I wonder if any American designs would have rivaled or even beat them in the race to the civilian tool watch concept.  

 

On the military side, US watches seem to me technologically on par with those of the Swiss brands, and certainly less expensive to produce. The A11 pilots watches had the same +-15 spd accuracy standard and hacking feature as the RAF 6b/159s from Longines, Omega, and JLC. And while not as flashy as a Radiomir, the Elgin and Hamilton canteens were probably the best proto-dive watches of WW2. Once again, it's obvious that the 40s were a critical formulative period since many successive Swiss military developments like the Submariner, Blancpain FF, IWC Mark11 all sooner or later became hugely successful civilian classics. 

 

Pocket watches are a topic I have yet to explore much, but just browsing some of the movement pics from the models you mentioned makes me really want to get one and start tinkering with it. 

[JackReacher147]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:59 AM, jimcon11 said:

 

I think those laws came to be as an attempt to save American watchmaking, which U.S. policy inadvertently killed by diverting domestic brands (which held a vast majority of the market share) to production of military instruments in WW2. Remini Mod Apk It's sad really, in all likelihood the forums here would read Elgin, Hamilton, Gruen, Waltham Area if not for wartime decree and the ingenuity of the Swiss to capitalize on the situation.

 

For those looking to enhance their digital photos with a touch of authenticity, exploring options like the Remini Mod APK can offer a compromise between genuine quality and the flexibility of digital enhancements.

[automatico]

"On the military side, US watches seem to me technologically on par with those of the Swiss brands, and certainly less expensive to produce. The A11 pilots watches had the same +-15 spd accuracy standard and hacking feature as the RAF 6b/159s from Longines, Omega, and JLC. And while not as flashy as a Radiomir, the Elgin and Hamilton canteens were probably the best proto-dive watches of WW2."

 

Agree.

...and they don't call USA made Hamilton 'snap back' dress watches from the 1930s through the 1960s 'The American Patek Philippe' for nothing.

I have owned a few manual wind Pateks and still have some vintage manual wind gold case Hamiltons...imho the Hamiltons are superior (in the real world), especially when you factor in the initial price, reliability, cost of parts, and service prices.  My last Patek was a 'Golden Ellipse' on a Patek bracelet and the thing was so fragile (cal 23-300), I doubt it would survive one hard sneeze.  They could be carried in a Kleenex box if that worries anyone.  Ha!

We call them 'Country Club Watches'.

 

Here is a 23-300 movement on eBay:

item number  134940359178  

 

Bulova 'sweep second' stainless case mil style 32mm project watch, been apart for years, might finish it this summer.  Many mil spec watches were 30 to 32mm.

Bottom right is a military issue 'front loader' Benrus from the Vietnam era signed June 1969.  Someone gave it to me and I can't remember any details on it but have 3 or 4 runners like it from the same era.  They are very good for daily wear if you like genuine trouble-free mil spec watches.  Problem is they have gone from $50 or $75 when I bought mine to $300+. 

Benrus made a run of reproductions a few years back but they have gone up in price too.   

 

Have a steel 1980s Hamilton military issue watch with a Durowe 7 jewel (manual wind) movement somewhere.  You see them on eBay, but most of the time, the seller leaves out the 7 jewel Durowe movement part.  A 17 jewel Durowe movement of the same type will fit in the case to make a very reliable 17 jewel everyday watch.

They look like this:

eBay item number  386749257465  

 

Nos dial for the Bulova project watch...

[freddy333]

I would disagree somewhat with your description of the 23-300 as being delicate. I have overhauled 2-3 of them (1 sitting on my bench now) &, while not in the tool watch class, I would have no qualms wearing 1 as a daily driver. But I will acknowledge that Pateks generally require a higher level of care when being maintained (due to their haute decoration), parts are costly & difficult to source.

[automatico]

"I would disagree somewhat with your description of the 23-300 as being delicate. I have overhauled 2-3 of them (1 sitting on my bench now) &, while not in the tool watch class, I would have no qualms wearing 1 as a daily driver. "

 

You are right of course, but I have never liked Patek Philippe watches and will admit to having a strong bias against the brand.

Why is that?

Because they are vastly overrated and overpriced, much like many other 'high grade' brands today.  Imho.

 

I never thought of Rolex being a 'high grade' watch because I can remember when they were the same price as a nice Omega or Longines.  During the 'quartz crisis' they were one of few brands to survive and not long after they got over the crisis, it seems they decided to go upscale and advertise to Watch Elites (Ha!) instead of 'Watch Knaves' like me.  Imho again.

Any Rolex watches I have left are mostly older models with cal. 15xx movements because that is what I started with and have stayed with.  I traded in later models but never did care much for them although I will admit to having three sapphire crystal models left.

 

I dropped out of the Rolex Race quite a while back and will buy one now and then only if it is an absolute bargain. 

I am basically just an observer now.   

[aliyarana]

It's interesting to see the passion you have for watches, and I completely understand your perspective on brands like Patek Philippe and Rolex. Much like how you feel about those brands being overrated and overpriced, there’s a similar sentiment in the tech world, especially when it comes to apps like the Remini (myremini.com). Some people view these modifications as overhyped, but just like with watches, the value is subjective. Some prefer the original experience, while others appreciate the enhancements and advanced features the modded versions bring. It's all about personal preference, really!

[freddy333]

aliyarana - Good 1st post! You might introduce yourself (in the Introduction forum) and tell us a little about your experience with watches &/or reps. Sounds like you have some knowledge.