Fighting words

[Pugwash]

you're not American, your viewpoint doesn't matter.

Plonk!

[Craytonic]

I believe he means towards american domestic policy, not in general. And in that respect he is correct - if you live somewhere else and don't like something in the US be thankful you live where you do! There is probably someone here that feels the same way about where you live. They call it domestic policy for a reason. Each country gets to write it, and based on a number of factors each country probably needs a unique set of domestic laws. Things that work out great here may not work so well in your country, and vice versa. The sense of self-righteousness on here is somewhat disturbing - some of you need to consider becomming TV preachers ("my bills!").

If someone says something about Iraq capt_cope gets to shoot them.

[Pugwash]

I believe he means towards american domestic policy, not in general. And in that respect he is correct

This coming from the World Police?

We're surely free to express an opinion, no?

[Craytonic]

Oh you can say what you want and sure maybe we can learn from each other.

But there is a difference in saying "gee guys we do it like this and it works really well" and "YOU HAVE TO BAN GUNS YOU IDIOTS!" I hear much more of the latter than the former here. Such a "better than thou" attitude it is slightly disgusting. It is when people start commanding like that you get a "[censored] you" response, because in the end you can't tell someone how to run their country so be nice with the suggestions or people quickly get resentful.

But in the end only citizens get to vote so ultimately, they are the only ones that matter. For instance when a US politician does polls to help decide on a policy decision I really doubt the poll Paris or London - and with good reason. They are polling domestically instead.

[Pugwash]

For instance when a US politician does polls to help decide on a policy decision I really doubt the poll Paris or London

How the times have changed. The first US domestic policy was basically decided by the Parisians ...

(no, really. Check your history. Why did the French give you the Statue of Liberty?)

[Craytonic]

Influenced, not decided. Since half the founders read The Republic I geuss we should pay our dues to the Greeks as well. I am well aware of the founding period; and the number of times the US has saved France.

Since we are giving history lessons, have you ever read our first president's farewell address? Go see what he said about "foreign influence." Perhaps not so new of a fear after all, is it?

[Pugwash]

Influenced, not decided. I am well aware of the founding period; and the number of times the US has saved France.

I have no dog in either side of that argument, but the US has to stop picturing themselves as the saviour of Europe. I doubt anyone posting here saw active service on either side of WWII, and that British servicemen hate being told the US saved France. France and the US have a fractious love/hate relationship that no-one really understands.

[Craytonic]

p.s. last time I checked governments everywhere were established to serve their citizens and to respond to their needs (and votes). Do they teach civics differently on that side of the pond?

[capt_cope]

This coming from the World Police?

We're surely free to express an opinion, no?

Express an opinion? Sure thing, if there were no dissenting opinions life would get rather boring. But when your opinion concerns things that you have no vested interest in (say gun control) then I have a hard time finding a reason to care. I'll listen to well thought out and well expressed ideas, but I won't let anyone ram their beliefs down my throat. Regardless of age or experience, if you live in a different country your outlook on many issues will differ from mine. And while your beliefs and opinions may well be correct for you, it doesn't make them correct for me. I don't pretend to have a good argument on why other nations should or should not ban firearms, I don't live there, and frankly, it doesn't really concern me. When another nation's activities DO concern me, I'll take interest and probably voice my opinion. And when some shitbag from the UN decides to try to get a global ban on firearms... I take interest and voice my opinion. I send out letters of protest, and I call anyone who might be able to influence said [censored].

http://www.stopungunban.org/

[Pugwash]

Since we are giving history lessons, have you ever read our first president's farewell address? Go see what he said about "foreign influence." Perhaps not so new of a fear after all, is it?

Ooh, edited post!

Yes, he said stay out of Britain vs France wars. Oh, and this:

"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests."

[Pugwash]

but I won't let anyone ram their beliefs down my throat.

This is a forum: Reading this is opt-in. No-one is ramming anything down your throat.

[Craytonic]

I have no dog in either side of that argument, but the US has to stop picturing themselves as the saviour of Europe. I doubt anyone posting here saw active service on either side of WWII, and that British servicemen hate being told the US saved France. France and the US have a fractious love/hate relationship that no-one really understands.

I just want everyone to mind their own god damn business, the US included and leave myself and my individual rights the hell alone!

[millwright]

Safe from who......?

Yeah...but they won't be outlaws brandishing your stolen LEGAL guns......and the authorities only need to worry about the bad guys...NOT the 'good' guys....who become 'bad' guys....despite psych evaluations....or the failure of authorities to recognise the trouble within.....!

No...a car is a VERY effective means of transportation......the fact that humans turn it into a KILLING tool is a different matter.....you CANNOT deviate a gun from it's original purpose....to KILL.......I'd welcome the opportunity to jump from the path of a speeding car at 60MPH.....more than a 9mm bullet travelling at over 800 MPH.

here's an indication of how INNEFECTIVE a car is as a killing tool......remember this incident...!

ACCIDENT being the operative word here....not MASS MURDER.......we can forgive someone who is responsible for a devastating accident.......you can't forgive someone for committing MASS MURDER....!

You're right ......how do I know.......I passed a guy on a street corner today......he was holding out his hand...finger extended ...pointing at people and shouting.."bang bang'....you're dead......guess what...... nobody fell down dead.....didn't matter how many times he pulled his trigger....guess what.......he was as surprised as hell when I went up to him.....and said....'RUMBLE ...RUMBLE....I'm a tank....and you're squashed..."......AND it's MY constitutional RIGHT to be a tank.....if we're gonna have TOYS......I want a better TOY than a dinky likkle ASSAULT rifle....!

Tell you what Millwright......go lie down in a dark room......isolate yourself from any extraneous noises.....and concentrate hard on how much of an idiot you've shown yourself to be in public......and then come back to the forum when you have something to say that makes some sort of sense......!

TTK-

I will keep my comments polite and to the point out of respect for Kenberg whom I consider a good friend. I have no personal qualm with you so I fail to see how you can consider yourself " smart " and me an idiot when you can't even say something constructive to me without adding in personal insult. Maturity anyone?

On to your points.

1. We fear what we do not understand. Plain and simple. You don't like guns. I respect that, AND your right to feel that way. Some people don't like replica watches. They express their opinions the same ways. True, replica watches don't directly harm people... but proponents against them would have you believe they DO cause some harm to legitimate watch trade AND the employment of those in those trades. Keeping guns from citizens simply won't happen here in the US. It's part of our Constitution. You can kill people more effectively AND quietly with knives than with firearms. What's next after we outlaw the guns??? Outlawing the kitchen utensils? Then the archery equipment.... and finally the foresting tools. (chainsaws, machetes, and sledgehammers) Where does it stop?

2. So then we only have to worry about the law-breakers carrying weapons.... true. But how do the people being attacked by the law-breakers defend themselves? Police response time is POOR at best, even when violence and weapons are involved. It simply won't work. Society is in a down-ward spiral. Period. We need to fix society, NOT the guns.

3. My point about the car is that where there is a will, there is a way. Taking weapons from people that intend to do harm to others will only result in them becoming more creative in how/what they use. Look at Iraq. They're called IMPROVISED explosive devices. We did a good job of keeping the real weapons away from them there, so they improvised. They're using forks, knives, bb's, glass shards, and rocks in this weapons. The igniter and the propellant is usually gasoline and/or fertilizer.

Outlaw kitchen utensils, gardening, Earth, bottles, and petrol? I think not.

An extreme example, for sure... but a valid point.

4. My view point is coming from someone trained in the art of killing at long range and close up and personal. I've served in the US Military for some severe and serious conflicts. I firmly believe that if you EDUCATE and REGULATE... you're fine. There are ALWAYS bad apples, but is it fair to punish the masses for the sins of the few?

Finally, consider Utah. Public concealed carry is allowed on AND off campus in that state. Guess how many school shootings or instances of violence on campuses have occured in UT. Not many. (not any, actually.. if I've searched enough).

An armed society is a polite society.

Then again...

Peace cannot be kept with force, it can only be achieved through understanding.

We can agree to disagree, as I'm in the US and you're not, (EDIT) the list could go on.

What it boils down to is that if this crazed student had decided to drive his car through campus and killed a bunch of people with it, or he decided to run through campus with a chainsaw and cut people up.... people wouldn't be screaming CAR CONTROL!!!! OR CHAINSAW CONTROL!!!

Think about that.

[Pugwash]

ps. I like the US and have a lot of friends there. Don't take my posts as US bashing. Attack opinions, not people.

[Pugwash]

We can agree to disagree, as I'm in the US and you're not, I'm trained with weapons and you're not.. the list could go on.

Do your homework. TTK was in active service in the armed forces.

[Craytonic]

I have no dog in either side of that argument, but the US has to stop picturing themselves as the saviour of Europe. I doubt anyone posting here saw active service on either side of WWII, and that British servicemen hate being told the US saved France. France and the US have a fractious love/hate relationship that no-one really understands.

[sarcasm]I am sure storming Normandy and what followed was of no help at all; France, the rest of Europe, and N. Africa would have been better off without the US.[/sarcasm] To say the US wasn't helpful in WWII is just a tad ungrateful. At a minimum every axis soldier a US soldier shot or captured was one less for the Europeans to deal with, and every bullet an American took was one a European would not have too. And then the guns we shipped over, the aid we sent, and the german subs we sank... give me a break.

[millwright]

Do your homework. TTK was in active service in the armed forces.

I stand corrected then.

Still doesn't change my views of how he looks at things. If I'm wrong he's welcome to correct me as I wish him no ill intent nor am I the least bit upset. This is an academic arguement, nothing more.

His views seem NARROW. I understand where he's coming from and I agree on some points... but he's simply unwilling to perceive anything from our (pro-gun) points.

At least, that's the way it seems...

I'm hoping we can open up to a friendly discussion, minus the typical-TTK rants and insults. It's easy to discern that he's an intelligent person with good points, but it's hard to respect what he has to say when he starts attacking you personally.

I think we can all agree on that.

Consider this my extension of the truce flag to TTK, in hopes that we can further this discussion without ill-will, malice, or silly arguement.

[Pugwash]

[sarcasm]I am sure storming Normandy and what followed was of no help at all; France, the rest of Europe, and N. Africa would have been better off without the US.[/sarcasm] To say the US wasn't helpful in WWII is just a tad ungrateful. At a minimum every axis soldier a US soldier shot or captured was one less for the Europeans to deal with, and every bullet an American took was one a European would not have too. And then the guns we shipped over, the aid we sent, and the german subs we sank... give me a break.

See?

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

WWII was won by the allies, not the US. The US didn't storm Normandy, the allies did. The invasion force was from the UK, the US and Canada and was supported by Free French and Polish troops. Stop taking credit for a team effort: it insults your friends and allies. The US war effort was amazing and part of a huge global undertaking whereby the US chose to fight on two fronts, but you didn't do it alone.

[Craytonic]

This is an academic arguement, nothing more.

In the end it is a cost/benefit analysis; which is to some extent a value judgment on which reasonable minds could differ. In the US the perception is that the benefits outweigh the harms. In another country people may decide differently. I am not sure there is anything wrong with that, or why people want to impose their own judgements about guns on the US.

[Craytonic]

See?

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

WWII was won by the allies, not the US. The US didn't storm Normandy, the allies did. The invasion force was from the UK, the US and Canada and was supported by Free French and Polish troops. Stop taking credit for a team effort: it insults your friends and allies. The US war effort was amazing and part of a huge global undertaking whereby the US chose to fight on two fronts, but you didn't do it alone.

In all honesty, do you think the allies could have won without the US? Lets not forget it was the UK, France, and Poland that were either under attack or occupied by the Germans. Not the US. They were defending. We were helping.

If your country is under attack or occupied by a foreign power and the US comes and bails you out that makes the US your _________.

Hint: answer == savior. Hey, better than speaking german!

Ungrateful.

[Pugwash]

Hey, better than speaking german!

Ungrateful.

Amazing revisionism. I had you pegged as an interesting and educated debater until you posted that.

[KB]

Personally I'm just trying to decide where this debate should finish, it's all been said and now it is just getting rehashed over and over to the point where friendships are going to be strained if not finished and why?

Because as soon as this tragic shooting happened at VT the pro gun lobby has gone into damage mode, but hey this is a watch forum you're lobbying the wrong people, it would have been nice if the emotions shown in this thread could have been directed to thoughts and prayers for the slain kids from VT...............but maybe I ask to much.

Ken

[capt_cope]

Personally I'm just trying to decide where this debate should finish, it's all been said and now it is just getting rehashed over and over to the point where friendships are going to be strained if not finished and why?

Because as soon as this tragic shooting happened at VT the pro gun lobby has gone into damage mode, but hey this is a watch forum you're lobbying the wrong people, it would have been nice if the emotions shown in this thread could have been directed to thoughts and prayers for the slain kids from VT...............but maybe I ask to much.

Ken

You won't get much of an argument from me, only this statement: I started this thread in response to comments that I disagreed with. Nothing more, nothing less.

[pollux1]

I'd just like to say that I hope the families of those killed at Virginia Tech gain some small comfort from the memories of those they have lost. R.I.P.

[Craytonic]

Amazing revisionism. I had you pegged as an interesting and educated debater until you posted that.

Sorry I have relatives that served and died fighting to protect someone else's country. Not my blood, but blood of my blood.

Let me give you an analogy to get out of the US slant.

Lets say you and I live on the same 100 acre piece of land with a large lake between us. Someone breaks into your house and pins you in the bathroom - you have maybe a small weapon but are under attack, pinned down, and out gunned. You call me with your cell phone and say you are pinned down and need help really bad. I drop what I am doing and

a) build a boat with my own resources (ignore time that would take for argument's sake)

B take my brother and maybe your cousin who lives with you who was over for a beer with me, and give them all my guns and ammo

c) cross relatively large lake between us

d) the robbers shoot at all of us since they are now holed up in your house

e) the robbers shoot and kill my brother

f) we manage to free you.

g) oh by the way while I was running all over your house someone was attacking the other side of my house, so I am fighting on two fronts at once.

Did I save you? Do you owe me a thanks?

I think it is more obvious when you take it out of context.

n.b. - I realize I vastly oversimplified history here but I think it gets the point across.