.

[TJGladeRaider]

My question is this . . . because Lord knows Ziggy answered everything else.

Not that it would matter to me, but just for clarity, EXACTLY how much price difference is the consumer looking at between these two methods?

Bill

[RWG Technical]

They'll FALL OFF if you take the calendar mech apart like you need to. I didn't mention the calendar mech because not all watches have one, and they are all different unless they are variations of the same movement.

Well actually most of the parts of the movement will FALL off if you take the screws out.

And I also told you to SPIN IT DRY, which you admit you aren't capable of doing.

I have no need to spin my movements dry, since I take them completely apart. You can see clearly in my photo's the condition of my non-spun dry but completely clean movement, vs yours which is still dirty and covered in residue. Given your instructions, I did even better that you suggested and blew the movement dry with my blower, and dried it on my hot air dryer, then I blew it again, and again, and put it once more under the hot air. It's as dry as it can be, yours would come out no different. So although I can't SPIN my movements dry like you do, check my results vs yours...

I told you to oil the cap jewels in place with a auto oiler, which you also couldn't do.

I have 2 automatic Bergeon oilers as a matter of fact, so no problem applying oil to a jewel that is in place, I do it all the time on vintage pieces...the correct way to oil a modern cap jewel is to clean both pieces, oil the cap jewel, and assemble the setting with the oil covering 3/4 of the jewel setting diameter.

Here's an article on making a new hairspring in watch school: http://www.tp178.com/jd/watch-school/6/article.htmld That one guy in the SWATCH group must be teaching others how to do it now.

Making a hairspring implies actually "making one", what it appears to be in your (non-working) link, is assembling one with ready made parts. There is a difference between assembling a hairspring to a collar and stud and actually "making" one. Assembling one and vibrating it to cut it to the correct length, is a very specialized skill, which is probably well beyond the swish and dip shop your working at.

Anyone who has ever taken a mainspring out of a barrel, can attest that your method of applying the grease is impossible, please take a picture of your oiler with the tip inserted between the spring and the barrel sides...impossible to do this with the spring in place, lets not forget the old gummed up grease that is also still in place which you never cleaned off...

I didn't think I'd have to walk you through everyu step. I'm not a typist. Whatever Ziggy.

It was my impression in reading your description, that you had outlined all the steps and all the pieces you disassemble...why would you leave out important steps. How you forgot to mention that you take off all the dial side parts, is an awful oversight on your part. So now your recanting on your earlier statements, and saying that "Of course" you have to take apart all the dial side parts using your trick. So if I follow your thinking, the only piece left that you did NOT remove, is the bridge over the motion works, which consists of two screws...and the 4 gears... so this is the time savings?? 2 screws and the motion works gears?? Wow...

You had no problem typing before, why the trouble all of a sudden.

I'll take my way over your way any day, and I'll bet no one who is dropping a watch off in your shop knows what is really going on behind the scenes, if they did, you would be called to task.

RG

[Guest TTK]

Stick a fork in his ass and turn him over...break out the barbecue sauce........he's done.....!

[Watchmeister]

Very entertaining. Here is the perfect analogy. Under the Tech theory if my car needs a service (change of fluids, check brakes, etc.) the proper solution would be to take it to the car wash.

[flavor flav]

great post The Zigmeister. obviously you know your [censored] and technician is a battery swapper.... only problem is you are feeding the troll.... i think he wants to stir trouble.

technician, why are you trying to teach others to be scam artists? please go away.

and TTK is not the guy to mess with.. your just asking for trouble. nice knowing you!

[KB]

Techy I'm going to guess that the only problem we have here is youthful enthusiasm and that you truely wanted to help but got a little hot under the collar when you saw your post get shot down.

Ok a couple of quick facts;....................(just because you like periods)................Ziggy is our boards No. 1 citizen, he has earned that mantle by constantly watching over us, looking after our watches, pointing out flaws in new movements and spending countless hours writing up guides on anything he believes us natives can handle ourselves.

You may indeed still have much to offer our little community but please always remember................(more periods for your viewing pleasure).........................Ziggy is the master!

Ken

[The Technician]

Don't be a fool The Zigmeister, even the old L&R rotary machines have a heat/spin cycle. For a reason. Centrifugal force and evaporation. Moves dirt and fluid away while accelerating evaporation. You use a hand blower intended for keeping dust out while you work.

Did you use 4 rinse (different containers, each cleaner than the other) steps like I said? I bet you didn't. Yours looks like you haven't rinsed at all. I'm not calling your basic method to task, as taking everything down, rubbing it with naptha and a stick and drying in sawdust does work, but you are being european silly about what actually NEEDS to be done to make sure a watch is running correctly. And deep down you know it.

Like I said, I did it like you for 10 years. I know total disassembly works, but it isn't necessary in all cases. Or even most. How many REAL watchmakers do you talk to daily? Ones who actually make parts? Who can bring a rusty wreck back from the dead without ordering stuff based on calibre? One less than I do, apparently.

My boss does "vibrate" hairsprigs, and he's been doing this for more than 30 years. It's standard instruction in watch school. Not so specialized for people who have actual training in the field outside of books or web forums. (No, I didn't go to school either, but now I'm recieving instruction from someone who did, and he's passing what works down to me. Not dogma.)

I post here for fun, not profit.

You post here for profit, it seems.

I service watches, you service watches (here). Mine all time out to spec or better, you say the same. (But I still say you use too much grease.) I've gotten ONE watch back in the 300+ I've done in the last 6 months.

You keep the faith, old man. I'll learn how to do things the effective and efficent way and move forward. And I'll learn how to use a lathe to MAKE parts. And I'll learn how to make hairsprings. And since that was a point of contention for you, (since he didn't mine the metals, smelt and and draw it out to fine wire himself)even if he was actually pounding out wire, why would that be so strange? All these old pocketwatches we see every day are handmade, long before calipers and even electric light. And they work great. After we service them.

As soon as I figure out how to take decent pics I'll show you what's what, and the inside of some watches you will never see outside of pictures, that I get to work on, or watch a master watchmaker work on daily. Though I'm in no rush, as this forum isn't my livelyhood.

Edited May 4, 2007 by The Technician

[The Technician]

Don't be a fool The Zigmeister, even the old L&R rotary machines have a heat/spin cycle. For a reason. Centrifugal force and evaporation. Moves dirt and fluid away while accelerating evaporation. You use a hand blower intended for keeping dust out while you work.

Did you use 4 rinse (different containers, each cleaner than the other) steps like I said? I bet you didn't. Yours looks like you haven't rinsed at all. I'm not calling your basic method to task, as taking everything down, rubbing it with naptha and a stick and drying in sawdust does work, but you are being european silly about what actually NEEDS to be done to make sure a watch is running correctly. And deep down you know it.

Like I said, I did it like you for 10 years. I know total disassembly works, but it isn't necessary in all cases. Or even most. If you have professional equipment and skill. How many REAL watchmakers do you talk to daily? Ones who actually make parts? Who can bring a rusty wreck back from the dead without ordering stuff based on calibre? One less than I do, apparently.

My boss does "vibrate" hairsprigs, and he's been doing this for more than 30 years. It's standard instruction in watch school. Not so specialized for people who have actual training in the field outside of books or web forums. (No, I didn't go to school either, but now I'm recieving instruction from someone who did, and he's passing what works down to me. Not dogma.)

I post here for fun, not profit.

You post here for profit, it seems.

I service watches, you service watches (here). Mine all time out to spec or better, you say the same. (But I still say you use too much grease.) I've gotten ONE watch back in the 300+ I've done in the last 6 months.

You keep the faith, old man. I'll learn how to do things the effective and efficent way and move forward. And I'll learn how to use a lathe to MAKE parts. And I'll learn how to make hairsprings. And since that was a point of contention for you, (since he didn't mine the metals, smelt and and draw it out to fine wire himself)even if he was actually pounding out wire, why would that be so strange? All these old pocketwatches we see every day are handmade, long before calipers and even electric light. And they work great. After we service them.

As soon as I figure out how to take decent pics I'll show you what's what, and the inside of some watches you will never see outside of pictures, that I get to work on, or watch a master watchmaker work on daily. Though I'm in no rush, as this forum isn't my livelyhood.

Edited May 4, 2007 by The Technician

[KB]

Your missing the point Techy we know Ziggy we have know him for many years and we know where his heart is, maybe his way is old fashioned, so what!

The fact is what Ziggy does he does better than anyone else on these boards have even come close to and we as a whole are more that happy that he keeps doing it HIS WAY.

So the question now is why are you trying to discredit him?

Ken

[Pugwash]

As soon as I figure out how to take decent pics I'll show you what's what, and the inside of some watches you will never see outside of pictures, that I get to work on, or watch a master watchmaker work on daily. Though I'm in no rush, as this forum isn't my livelyhood.

Check out my photo tutorials below my signature. When taking movement photos, flat diffused light is obligatory.

[offshore]

I post here for fun, not profit.

You post here for profit, it seems.

Though I'm in no rush, as this forum isn't my livelyhood.

Sorry my friend, but you are wide of the mark here.........Veeeerrrry wide!

May I respectfully suggest you do a little research, prior to making such profound statements.

Zig has been around these parts for some time now... and has contributed ten times, no 100 times, more worth to our forums, than he ever may have received.... I personally know it is a labour of love for him... the few $$ which come his way are just, in a small part, some contribution for his time and input.

Why don't you hang around for a couple of years, give us all your varied insights; we really love nothing more than learning about the art... and when you have finally earned the acceptance of the members, your theories may hold some weight.

But right now, you are a bit akin to a seal cub, lying on an ice flow, with a pack of killer whales circulating.... as said iceflow drifts past the equator!

I too, do a little repair work, am still learning, value forums such as this (and NAWCC) for the wealth of knowledge I can gain, and hopefully improve my skills.

I read your comments (repair) with interest, and have read many similar posts.... but it seems that these "shortcuts" are always decried by those who have the "passion" for repairs.... as against those who want to just fill their bank accounts.

Welcome to our little home, I wish you a long existance here, as you can certainly offer us some valuable input and ideas.

Let's see if your next input here can be less " inflammatory"

Offshore

[Watchmeister]

I would like to send the Technician some of my past Asian 7750's. In many cases, unless you completely disassemble and properly clean out the dirt from the non-clean room conditions of a rep factory or put the proper oils that were never carefully put in you have a very marginal working movement or one which will ultimately grind to a halt. Even the ETA's we get can be marginally put together from scavenged parts. I had been told quite a while ago that the dipping approach is often used at the factory level and that is often the root of our problems.

[RWG Technical]

Don't be a fool Ziggy, even the old L&R rotary machines have a heat/spin cycle. For a reason. Centrifugal force and evaporation. Moves dirt and fluid away while accelerating evaporation. You use a hand blower intended for keeping dust out while you work.

No one would think me a fool, certainly no one that knows me. I used a hand blower since I was trying to get all the trapped rinse out of the nooks and crannies

[Torques]

I'm getting the feeling somone else is making an assclown out of himself by quoting the entire 16page long post made by The Zigmeister...!

edit: i see you fixed it, attaboy!

Did you take the foot out of your mouth dummy?

[Rolexman]

Maybe The Technician made a bad start but please don't forget that he can contribute a great deal to this forum in the future..... in the end all he is trying to do is share his knowledge with us. Cut the guy some slack. In 2 years he could be the next The Zigmeister. He can learn from us and visa versa.

Isn't the pond big enough for two big fishes

Just my 0.02.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Rolexman

[Torques]

I followed your instructions to the letter, now your changing them...

On this model, as you can plainly see, the hour and cannon pinion will NOT fall off, they are held in place with the big cover thing, it's plain to see in the pictures.

I did use L&R cleaner and rinse, it's the only thing I have in the shop, and blew the movement with my dust blower and dried and dried it...

I did not use "too" much grease in the barrel wall, you forgot to mention how you remove the "OLD" dried and gummed up grease, when the spring bridle is tight up against the side of the barrel... All my serviced watches run longer than the factory specifications after I am finished with them, no slippage on my end. But dont' ask me, ask anyone who had a movement serviced at my shop.

Makes hairsprings?

Amazing, considering a difference of 1/10,000" in thickness of a Mainspring will equal to 6 minutes of time change per day on a movement, I am in awe that this person can fabricate a "hairspring"...I can't imagine the tolearnces it requires... There is one maker or hairsprings in the world, a member of the SWATCH group...

I am not willfully ignorant in this topic, but it appears that you are. The proof is in the pictures, and if that's not enough, just "Google" watch servicing and see what comes up, better yet, post your way on TZ and watch the sparks fly.

You can keep your "Swish and Dip" scam servicing, I'll keep to the real one...

RG

I just got done reading your Sub restoration project (the one in the box). That is an incredible documentary, thanks for sharing.

[andreww]

Zig, awesome post. I'm an open minded guy, willing to listen to both sides and make an informed decision. (thats why I tried to bait you into doing this comparison). Your results speak for themselves.

[olivia]

Maybe The Technician made a bad start but please don't forget that he can contribute a great deal to this forum in the future..... in the end all he is trying to do is share his knowledge with us. Cut the guy some slack. In 2 years he could be the next The Zigmeister. He can learn from us and visa versa.

Isn't the pond big enough for two big fishes

Just my 0.02.

I agree. They are both right but to differing degrees. I have repaired watches for about 20 years for friends and NAWCC members only. Have done it both ways. There is no question that the full disassembly performed by The Zigmeister is the best method and especially important for very dirty and well worn watches. The partial disassembly, but removing the dial side parts that The Zigmeister shows, is okay for watches that are not too dirty but may have dried oil. However, in the partial disassembly approach, there is an additional ( 3rd) rinse that I have found to be needed in order to eliminate the residue shown by The Zigmeister's pictire. I use One Dip for the 3rd rinse and none of what The Zigmeister shows as left over rinse residue will appear.

Edited May 4, 2007 by olivia

[RWG Technical]

I agree. They are both right but to differing degrees. I have repaired watches for about 20 years for friends and NAWCC members only. Have done it both ways. There is no question that the full disassembly performed by Ziggy is the best method and especially important for very dirty and well worn watches. The partial disassembly, but removing the dial side parts that ziggy shows, is okay for watches that are not too dirty but may have dried oil. However, in the partial disassembly approach, there is an additional ( 3rd) rinse that I have found to be needed in order to eliminate the residue shown by ziggy's pictire. I use One Dip for the 3rd rinse and none of what ziggy shows as left over rinse residue will appear.

Interesting, I never tried the one dip.

It takes so little time to take the watch apart, and I really like to be able to inspect all the parts, especially because it can save time if there is a defect. If I was working in a commercial shop, I may be forced to use a different approach. But for now, I am going to stay with what has worked well for me, no complaints from my customers so far...

Thanks for the input.

RG

[olivia]

@The Zigmeister

You can't go wrong with the full disassembly.

[Guest TTK]

Swish and dip method is akin to taking your car for a service......the mechanic taking off the head cover......using a pulley ...taking the engine out and swishing it about in a tank full of Mobil oil....ridiculous....!

[FasTTaP]

When I retire, I'll probably learn to be a watchsmith... The Zigmeister, thanks for helpping me prepare my retirement (I'm 38 though, could take a while)

[archibald]

The technical aspects of this discussion are well beyond me--but the members reading this should remember that our pieces--even ETA's--are assembled in rep factories. We can all make our own decisions, but the movements I have serviced locally get complete teardowns, always with comments from my local smith (30+ years @ one of the country's premier vintage watchsellers) about what he found inside. I'll ask him to be sure, but I'd bet a dollar if I asked him whether to do a complete teardown on a rep or not, he'd says emphatically: "Take it apart."

[slay]

Did you take the foot out of your mouth dummy?

Who are you to call me a dummy? Didnt you read my post? I said attaboy, okay? Not enough statisfaction for you? Maybe an attagirl will do the job?

edit: sorry to darken your hopes, but I'm not really into feet-sex (and so is probably everyone else who has once had an athletes foot). But maybe thats a whole different story where you come from, but we dont do that here!

[Highflyingclive]

They'll FALL OFF if you take the calendar mech apart like you need to. I didn't mention the calendar mech because not all watches have one, and they are all different unless they are variations of the same movement. And I also told you to SPIN IT DRY, which you admit you aren't capable of doing. I told you to oil the cap jewels in place with a auto oiler, which you also couldn't do. I didn't think I'd have to walk you through everyu step. I'm not a typist. Whatever The Zigmeister.

Here's an article on making a new hairspring in watch school: http://www.tp178.com/jd/watch-school/6/article.htmld That one guy in the SWATCH group must be teaching others how to do it now.

Hahaha - your link led me to "The webdirectory for gardening".

Nuff said.