scotty Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 DISAPPOINTED. Bought a Swiss UPO from a well respected collector. Had sent it to a watchmaker for some upgrades: * SuperLume * service * waterproofing Turns out: (a) SuperLume will risk damaging dial as all the indicators are heavily lacquered (anyone know a solution to this??) ( the promised, checked, and assured Swiss ETA movement (by my collector), turns out to be a Chinese copy......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 DISAPPOINTED. Bought a Swiss UPO from a well respected collector. Had sent it to a watchmaker for some upgrades: * SuperLume * service * waterproofing Turns out: (a) SuperLume will risk damaging dial as all the indicators are heavily lacquered (anyone know a solution to this??) ( the promised, checked, and assured Swiss ETA movement (by my collector), turns out to be a Chinese copy......... Who was the collector? And is the watchmaker someone on the rep boards? If they're not, sometimes they don't really know too much about the in's and out's of ETA movements (they may be wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 The problem is that first we though there were two types of movements: swiss and Chinese. Then somehow appeared an "ETA Copy" 99% like the real deal. But the reality is that there are ETA movements, with ETA stamps, that are not real ETA (made in China with no swiss quality standards). And these movements are hard to notice unless you are a very expert watchmaker. Probably even dealers are fooled by manufacturers. Let's get used having these Chinese copies since ETA is restricting swiss movements for sale (BTW, with another price). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 It might be easier just to stick to the topic of the watch at hand rather covering the entire gamut of movements. It's either an ETA movement or it isn't. If the watchsmith isn't someone on the boards, the odds are that it's them that are wrong - it has happened plenty of times before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Turns out: (a) SuperLume will risk damaging dial as all the indicators are heavily lacquered (anyone know a solution to this??) ( the promised, checked, and assured Swiss ETA movement (by my collector), turns out to be a Chinese copy......... Maybe you should find another watchmaker... there is no risk damaging the dial if you lume it, as for the movement, it's almost impossible to tell if it a chinese copy, part ETA - part chinese, or whatever, especially on movements where there are no hallmarks under the balance wheel. If it's stamped "ETA" and "6497-1" or a has serial number under the balance, it's an ETA. Remember ETA does have factories in the Far East. I have NEVER EVER seen a copy of a 6497 that was marked ETA under the balance... This is a simple reliable and rugged movement, you don't see or hear of many problems with the hand wind models. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Maybe you should find another watchmaker... there is no risk damaging the dial if you lume it, The Zigmeister, have you ever lumed a PO dial? I was trying to find a post of some one who already did it but had no luck. I know this watchmaker (he made some work for me in the past) and he explained to me that the sticks in the PO come enameled, so before to applying lume, enamel must be removed and then applied some how again. The risk is because needing to scratch first enamel, not because luming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Check RWI.. vacuum has some threads about super lumed dials... lume like GEN! Check RWI.. vacuum has some threads about super lumed dials... lume like GEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Check RWI.. vacuum has some threads about super lumed dials... lume like GEN! Check RWI.. vacuum has some threads about super lumed dials... lume like GEN! How about Check RWG instead of check RWI, since your on the RWG site - in case you forgot. There are members here who do and have been doing lume work, I have been doing lume work for over 2 years. If your going to toot members horns, you should do so from the site your on, not from another one. Flavor Flav does lume as well and he is here on RWG. Here are some recent lume jobs I DID, is this close enough to GEN for you?? RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Check RWI.. vacuum has some threads about super lumed dials... lume like GEN! Just checked and he did lume some PO's... and fantastic job! I have to tell this watchmaker that the lume stays in the sticker without any problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Ziggy, have you ever lumed a PO dial? I was trying to find a post of some one who already did it but had no luck. I know this watchmaker (he made some work for me in the past) and he explained to me that the sticks in the PO come enameled, so before to applying lume, enamel must be removed and then applied some how again. The risk is because needing to scratch first enamel, not because luming it. Have done many of them, and put new varinsh over the lume when I was finished to make it look like the gen. Never had a reason to remove the varnish... Have no pictures of it, maybe the members who had them done will post some pictures. Taking pictures of everything takes far too much of my time... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 How about Check RWG instead of check RWI, since your on the RWG site - in case you forgot. There are members here who do and have been doing lume work, I have been doing lume work for over 2 years. If your going to toot members horns, you should do so from the site your on, not from another one. Flavor Flav does lume as well and he is here on RWG. Here are some recent lume jobs I DID, is this close enough to GEN for you?? It was not my intention to start up such a type of fights... I'm always sad when I see we can not share info from one forum to the other not being rude (this is just a hobby). Your pics are great The Zigmeister as well as your job (and Flavor's also, BTW), but your pics don not show a lume on a enameled sticker, which was what I was looking for to convince my watchmaker it can be done. Understand that it is first difficult to convince a professional to work in reps, much more difficult to make them try with things they've never done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Have done many of them, and put new varnish over the lume when I was finished to make it look like the gen. Never had a reason to remove the varnish... Have no pictures of it, maybe the members who had them done will post some pictures. Taking pictures of everything takes far too much of my time... RG Thanks for the advise... as I said, some watchmakers need a proof before attempting some mods some of you are use to do in reps (also in gens, of course). Many times I've got answers from professionals like "you'd better buy a new dial...". You know. I wrote long time a go (at RGW1) that we were not aware of the nice prices we have from watchmakers in this and other forums. Services from a professional watchmaker are much more expensive, and many times they don't want to make them because are too risky unless you do it often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 It was not my intention to start up such a type of fights... I'm always sad when I see we can not share info from one forum to the other not being rude (this is just a hobby). Your pics are great Ziggy as well as your job (and Flavor's also, BTW), but your pics don not show a lume on a enameled sticker, which was what I was looking for to convince my watchmaker it can be done. Understand that it is first difficult to convince a professional to work in reps, much more difficult to make them try with things they've never done. My comment was directed at who I quoted, piratedzeus, not at you...sorry if you misunderstood. I am all for sharing between forums as well, and I know vaccum and have spoken to him many times on the phone, and consider him a friend. But I also think we should promote and remember the members we have on our own forum and mention them first, over members who frequent other forums. Ater all, the members who are here, are the reason the forum is what it is... if we don't recognize their contributions, they will just move on... I have not had any issues ever luming a varnished dial, most modern rollies are varnished, not a problem, ever... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Services from a professional watchmaker are much more expensive, and many times they don't want to make them because are too risky unless you do it often. I agree, but also think that the watchmakers we have on RWG produce just as good of a quality product as any professional, the only difference is that most of us do it as a hobby. I personally think I can do as good a job on movement servicing and relume work as any professional out there... Professional is a way of conducting yourself when you offer a service, I know many so-called professional shops, that leave a lot to be desired when it comes to turn times, prices, customer service, etc... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Here here Ziggy, this is RWG and imo the best because of our members and admin team, we should be supporting the members here before we look else where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polynomial Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I think we haven't resolved the main issue, was the PO ultimate or light? How did the watchmaker figure it is China copy, if there are no ETA markings that would not take great skill to figure out, and if there were, it would look exactly like ETA and even if fake (as some theories indicate), it would be impossible to tell. A picture of the movement would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I think we haven't resolved the main issue, was the PO ultimate or light? How did the watchmaker figure it is China copy, if there are no ETA markings that would not take great skill to figure out, and if there were, it would look exactly like ETA and even if fake (as some theories indicate), it would be impossible to tell. A picture of the movement would help. His statement was: "swiss ETA come with winding rotor polished, while china copies are not polished". Also, I understand he has seen many ETA's in 40 years of experience. What I can't ensure is if he's referring to ETA's made in China (but legal item anyway) vs. ETA's produced at swiss or EU somewhere. I will ask him again being more precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polynomial Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 His statement was: "swiss ETA come with winding rotor polished, while china copies are not polished". Also, I understand he has seen many ETA's in 40 years of experience. What I can't ensure is if he's referring to ETA's made in China (but legal item anyway) vs. ETA's produced at swiss or EU somewhere. I will ask him again being more precise. Now rotor is not relevant here, but knowing whether there are ETA markings would be relevant. There are two version of the uPO, notably different in price, and the cheaper ones with with Chinese movements have copy movement without any markings - many people bought the Asian (lite) uPO, perhaps they can confirm. I have a swiss uPO with ETA movment and that definitively looks like real ETA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 The so-called 'clone' movement in the 'lite' is in no way a copy of the ETA, that is well-established I think. It's totally different. I'm of the understanding that the watch under discussion was purchased as an ETA proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polynomial Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Here is nice pic of the ETA 2824, this is precisely what is in my uPO, and as you can see the rotor is not smooth, if that is the watchmaker was referring to (perhaps he needs more experience, 40 years might be too little...) http://www.chronometrie.com/eta2824/eta2824.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I don't know why I was under the impression this was a 6497 movement, my mind was somewhere else...sorry... As for the movement, the easy and quick check, is the hairspring attachments, ETA uses removable studs, Asian use fixed regulatory pins etc. A picture will show what it is... If you look in my subforum, there is a lot of pictures of the variants, including the so called "Asian 2824..." RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted June 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Been away a couple of days.......what a debate chain I started...... * watch was advertised, and theortically checked before shipment, as Swiss ETA 2824. Watchmaker is a seasoned commercial professional. I guess no better than our forum professionals. In the end - what constitutes a professional ? Someone who has developed a passion for, and the necessary skills over, this hobby, is in my view a professional also. So long as he behaves professionally, and I believe they do. Just as good as someone who has been formally trained, and dedicated their working time to watches. They both have a passion and skill set applicable. And you can get good and bad commercial professionals (watchmakers), just like good and bad mechanics. Anyway...enough..... * collector is well known. I've been in touch and he's asked I send close-up pics. The item is currently with the watchmaker, and I haven't a case back opener. So will try to convice watchmaker to do a couple of pics, which I'll send to the collector and will try to post here for info. (without wanting to start any fights !!) The collector will no doubt make his comment when I send the pics. And I've nothing against him right now. We have to remember what game we're in. Any final comments or gripes will be reserved for the end (if there is one). In any case - the watch works and looks nice, except for the lume - next bit...... Lume issue. The chains above confirm UPO's can be relumed. However I'm Europe based, and kind of reluctant to send around the world for our renound experts to work on this article. Shame we don't have forum European Ziggy's and the like, to help us poor Europeans out for such jobs. Ziggy (or other of our professionals) - fancy setting up a JV / sub-contractor over here ???? How could we convice you ?? So the question is, convincing Mr Watchmaker to take a chance and have a go re-luming my varnished UPO. And if he doesn't agree, or if it turns out bad - whose got a good 45mm dial and hands set, or even better - gens.....??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 However I'm Europe based, and kind of reluctant to send around the world for our renound experts to work on this article. Shame we don't have forum European The Zigmeister's and the like, to help us poor Europeans out for such jobs. The Zigmeister (or other of our professionals) - fancy setting up a JV / sub-contractor over here ???? How could we convice you ?? I too am European, and I, like others, have sent stuff to The Zigmeister without a problem. Still, he's not taking any more work for a while, so it looks like someone in Europe is going to have to learn to relume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltatahoe Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 So the question is, convincing Mr Watchmaker to take a chance and have a go re-luming my varnished UPO. i wouldn't dare "convince" anyone to try reluming anything this is not easy work, particularly on models someone has never tried before. just my .02 deltatahoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmena Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 i wouldn't dare "convince" anyone to try reluming anything this is not easy work, particularly on models someone has never tried before. just my .02 deltatahoe I'm with you. As I said before (and already discussed with scotty) professional watchmakers (understand "professional" as it is their unique profession and income) that never worked before with reps are reluctant to work on some type of mods... and many of them are use to replace a dial instead of repairing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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