more replica controversy at paneristi....

[robideaux]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/mess...nst+knock-offs-

bourgeoise luddites seem to think all replicas are "fake chinese [censored]." that's borderline racist. who's to say that a watchmaker in china is incapable of producing anything but "fake [censored]." With this kind condescending racism, it's no wonder the chinese prefer to dispense high quality "knock offs." Racism like that prohibits any chance of legitimate competition between asia and europe in the market for luxury goods. naturally, it seems that the chinese have decided to beat them at a different game, albeit illegally, by offering a comparable product at a fraction of the price. I wouldn't be surprised if soon more high quality replicas are in circulation than instead of originals with their overly inflated price tags. Only a small minority are knowledgable enough to know the minute differences between "fake" and "real," and unless corporate lawyers put more stringent laws in place to protect their illusory identity, then i wouldn't be surprised if in a few more decades they simply evaporate.

It's simply a case of pseudo-modernists refusing to capitulate under the collective realisation that there is no dualism between essense and existence. They are all mass-produced commodities. furniture is furniture and watches are watches. sure there are degrees of quality, but in the case of original movement, 1:1 replicas they are minute. To purchase a gen simply out of moral refusal to consider a replicas is absurd. Such a person must be either a ) a rich elitist condescending snob who probably lives in an virtual world of extreme materialism, or B ) a servile functionary of industry who chooses to grovel and pledge allegiance to a non-existent, reified corporate entity. For the prior, i could care less; for the latter, i sincerely shed a tear...

Edited April 25, 2006 by robideaux

[chris5264]

[url=http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/message/1145992936/OT%2C+same+rules+and+guidelines+apply+to+defend+original+furniture+against+knock-offs-]To purchase a gen simply out of moral refusal to consider a replicas is absurd. Such a person must be either a ) a rich elitist condescending snob who probably lives in an virtual world of extreme materialism, or B ) a servile functionary of industry who chooses to grovel and pledge allegiance to a non-existent, reified corporate entity. For the prior, i could care less; for the latter, i sincerely shed a tear...

Great post, it totally took me back to Sartre. There may not be any real difference between a rep and gen except those socially defined. As I sit at my workbench, I see little difference between my reps and gen..in the social world,,,then the differences appears. Good thing I spend so little time in the social world, ie. at the AD....

[got-it]

lol, let them talk. Seriously, I bet some of these guys buy their damn gens by basically going into some sort of debt.

Then I look at myself...

credit card debt of $200 from beginning of this month

Mortgage with only 10 more months left.

That's it.

Gee, I wonder who's smart now.

[ryyannon]

@robideaux: very good post, a pleasure to read and reflect upon: vingt sur vingt.

@Nanuq:

You never cease to amaze me.

Given that most people don't even know what it is, how in blazes did you amass a collection of vintage Stickley in ALASKA?

[archibald]

LOL! Your posts make me think fondly about my Lit Crit major days! Translated into English, the problem is this: As long as there is a huge gap between quality and price, as there is with every item that commands a high price primarily because of its brand name, knock-offs will exist. Unless we're going to completely revamp both human nature and the economy of the planet earth, they will always exist.

Watches, furniture, bags---doesn't matter. My laptop currently rests on a genuine george nakashima coffee table (probably now worth more than all my watches combined, but when we bought it before mid century modern furniture was red hot, just plain too-expensive) which is worth every penny of my insurance premium. Why? Can't be repped. One of a kind. My ass currently rests on a knock off of an expensive italian sofa which cost 8 cents on the dollar of the gen. Why? The only thing about the Sofa that makes the genl cost $15000 is the name written on the bottom, not it's workmanship or materials.

You don't need to be Henry Louis Gates to figure out why Panerai reps exist or why the folks over at Paneristi.com panic every time they see the letters R-E-P.

[thomasng]

Gosh I got quite a laugh out of reading that.

I use mostly IKEA furniture in my apartment building, and I've been more than happy with the quality after a few years for the price I paid. The funiture gives my apartment a modern look without paying high prices. My laptop rests on a glass IKEA office table, and I use glass coffee tables, glass cabinets everywhere. I could never understand why I need to pay thousands of dollars for furniture if it's going to get old and worn out anyways, and even my most snobbish guests don't give two shits about what furniture I have. For me, as long as it's good quality, why pay big money?

But, I do make up for this by having a $9,000 Persian rug on the carpet, a Bang and Olufsen stereo system, Toshiba plasma TV and some beautiful paintings and sketches. Of course the Persian rug looks no different from other rugs, but the quality is really there, but it's still all in the mind.

[Jetsons]

The interesting thing is that the Herman Miller, Eames, Noguchi and George Nelson furniture & accessories you can buy new today from authorized retailers are all in a sense, reproductions. The modern incarnations are manufactured by various factories under licence form the estates of the aforementioned. They are really not too different from the unauthorized reproductions in terms of quality that are available for far less. Their designs were well beyond their times but their simplicity makes them easy to reproduce buy virtually anyone.

The original manufactured designs from the 40s', 50s & 60s run some serious dollars today and are highly collectable. The current authorized reproductions will probably be never worth at most, what one paid for them.

The folks at Paneristi can stand to learn a few things when it comes to collecting mid 20th Century modern furniture.

Jet

Edited April 26, 2006 by Jetsons

[archibald]

@admin

I don't know admin, I think IKEA is the Invicta of furniture--way overpriced, even though it's cheap. Same stuff they sell at Wal-Mart. I know the Wal-Mart stuff doesn't say, "Designer: Olaf Bjorenssjen" but it's the same pressed sawdust crap, and without the Dieter from SNL marketing schtick. If you like actaul modern design, pick up a copy of Dwell magazing and order the knockoffs advertised in the back--about 20% more than IKEA but they're the furniture versions of our reps: actual designs by first-rate designers made out of quality materials and built by actual craftspeople and CNC machines in China.

IKEA's meatballs are kick ass, especially with thet red (lingonberry?) jelly and those little cardamom biscuits-- and dirt cheap. Like 2 bucks a pound for the meatballs.

@jetsons

No [censored]--the stuff they're saying are "real" are reps. The "knockoffs" they're [censored] about are reps of reps. We paid, like 40 bucks for a Florence Knoll licenced end table at a resale shop 'cause they have no resale value--the new ones are way overpriced and the genuine ones are obscene, for people who buy genuine Panerai.

[thomasng]

@admin

I don't know admin, I think IKEA is the Invicta of furniture--way overpriced, even though it's cheap. Same stuff they sell at Wal-Mart. I know the Wal-Mart stuff doesn't say, "Designer: Olaf Bjorenssjen" but it's the same pressed sawdust crap, and without the Dieter from SNL marketing schtick. If you like actaul modern design, pick up a copy of Dwell magazing and order the knockoffs advertised in the back--about 20% more than IKEA but they're the furniture versions of our reps: actual designs by first-rate designers made out of quality materials and built by actual craftspeople and CNC machines in China.

Well, here's the funny thing. I chipped a large portion of my coffee desk off once by accident, and I was surprised it wasn't sawdust stuff. I have bought Dwell magazine before, but the stuff in the back isn't accessible to me in Canada I would assume. Oh well, I'm moving out later this year, might as well ditch all the old stuff and pick up some new stuff.

Any specific recommendations you can make? Thanks.

[dosanim]

It is all about quality. Pottery Bar furniture is not on cheap side of scale. It is still made in China!

Not all Chinese stuffs are of poor quality. It is about QC by HQ and manufacturing process.

Spend more for stuff you plan to keep it for long time, otherwise, save $$!

[Craytonic]

Speaking of furniture... anyone got a connection on real or replica eames lounge chairs? Always wanted one but I treat my furniture to poorly to drop even 2,500 on a chair... Although I did pick up a real aeron and love it to death.

[Hok]

Well, here's the funny thing. I chipped a large portion of my coffee desk off once by accident, and I was surprised it wasn't sawdust stuff. I have bought Dwell magazine before, but the stuff in the back isn't accessible to me in Canada I would assume. Oh well, I'm moving out later this year, might as well ditch all the old stuff and pick up some new stuff.

Any specific recommendations you can make? Thanks.

or in Europe?

well, being a student, i practically sleep on the floor, so no problems like this, anyway.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Hok

[slay]

But, I do make up for this by having a $9,000 Persian rug on the carpet, a Bang and Olufsen stereo system, Toshiba plasma TV and some beautiful paintings and sketches. Of course the Persian rug looks no different from other rugs, but the quality is really there, but it's still all in the mind.

b&o is a little bit overpriced, there are better systems for less outthere!

[tech]

Excellent post! I have three gens that I paid a lot of money for...and I have 4 reps on the way...I can honestly say that I won't be wasting my money on the gens anymore...I have seen the quality of work on the reps and there is little reason to spend the exorbitant amount of money for the gen when the rep is nearly as good.

Not to mention how much fun the hobby of mods and upgrades on the reps will become.

cheers

[Pugwash]

You don't need to be Henry Louis Gates to figure out why Panerai reps exist or why the folks over at Paneristi.com panic every time they see the letters R-E-P.

That's because they're bricking it over the fact the bottom is going to fall out of the Palbundi market. The whole Panerai craze is like the tulipomania of the 17th century. The reason they have value is that they have value. The watches themselves have nothing going for them, apart from nice typography and ... um, they're big. Panerai is a brand based on smoke and mirrors and the tears in the seams are showing. Their new watches are, to be frank, low-end hockey-pucks made of off-the-shelf components. Once the emperor has been deemed naked, and that's at the end of this diatribe, the value of vintage models will be taken down along with the crumbling realisation that nothing new has come out of the factory since they turned a pocket watch on its side and put it underwater.

Oh, sorry, they have a technical innovation. I forgot. That crown guard, which really is too big and serves no purpose, apart from covering up an ability to add a threaded crown to a bought-in movement. You might as well get a Graham Cockfighter OVORKOMPENSATOR watch, at that point.

The upside is that the prices on the vintages will stabilise and once the hollywood non-girly men move to something more cucumber-down-pants, you'll be able to buy pre-vendome models for realistic money instead of house-and-car money. Bad news for investors, good news for proper collectors.

Anyway, so as to be a harbinger, I'm saying it here and now.

The Emperor Has No Clothes: New Panerai watches are as good as Tag Hauers, and that's it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but them's the facts. Big Tag Hauers, sure.

[Craytonic]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Polynomial]

A knife designer? This is funny. Chinese knocking off his knife designs? I suppose Chinese were producing steel knifes and swords when this fella's relatives were still living in trees, but that is a different story I heard of western manufacturers reproducing Chinese and Japanese knifes, but I never heard Chinese reproducing some crap produced by some yenk or froggy fellow the only thing they might be reproducing is swiss army knife, but something tells me this paneristy guy does not have much to do with that business

About watches? Swiss are still the best, Germans are close, Americans can produce something, but Chinese are the biggest watch manufacturers, not sure if many folks realise this.

About furniture? I always go for genuine. Nothing beats genuine Ikea

[ubiquitous]

The upside is that the prices on the vintages will stabilise and once the hollywood non-girly men move to something more cucumber-down-pants, you'll be able to buy pre-vendome models for realistic money instead of house-and-car money. Bad news for investors, good news for proper collectors.

The non-girliest of the non-girly men, AS, is an AP fan first and foremost. Id' say that's pretty cucumber-ish!

[Pugwash]

The non-girliest of the non-girly men, AS, is an AP fan first and foremost. Id' say that's pretty cucumber-ish!

I now have this vision in my head of Ahnahld trying to pronounce Audemars Piguet. It's quite worrying.

[ubiquitous]

Ahhhhhdooomuurrrh Peeeegooooayyy.

Eeet's naht a tumah.

[Pugwash]

b&o is a little bit overpriced, there are better systems for less outthere!

B&O are very overpriced. You can get significantly better for a lot less, but it won't look as good.

[Pugwash]

Ahhhhhdooomuurrrh Peeeegooooayyy.

Eeet's naht a tumah.

C'mahn, Ahdoomah Pighey, Datch. Pushink der too many pencil?

Two snehks facing each ahdah!

[slay]

B&O are very overpriced. You can get significantly better for a lot less, but it won't look as good.

That really depends... I just LOVE my Korsun(RedRose) TubeAmp. And it only cost me a fraction of what you'd normaly have to pay (900 versus almost 10.000)

[gran]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/mess...nst+knock-offs-

bourgeoise luddites seem to think all replicas are "fake chinese [censored]." that's borderline racist. who's to say that a watchmaker in china is incapable of producing anything but "fake [censored]."

I agree! Lets hear about some quality Chinese Watches......just look at Kiu's Mystery Tourbillon as an example...a great Chinese horologist

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=3454

[Murdoch]

b&o is a little bit overpriced, there are better systems for less outthere!

I agree... B&O is very overpriced. But it does look good. Except for their new mobilphone. That looks like a Braun travelling alarm clock.