richard lawton Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Hi All Just looking for some opinions on this topic. I see many sales of watches here (Secondhand) and noticed that most members are looking to get back almost the same cost as buying from the dealers. Even if a watch has never been worn it is still second hand and the resale price should reflect this. Why all of a sudden are used replica watches costing so much? When I sell a used replica watch I expect to loose at least 30-40% on the cost I paid from a dealer, forget the shipping. Is the used replica watch market suddenly different from the genuine watch market where most original watches loose 30-40% on resale from retail, you only have to look at the many dealers selling geniune watches to see the amount required for a used watch. Regards Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroflott Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I've noticed this too in recent months. I've put it down to the perceived benefit of buying a watch more local to you, rather than run the customs risk from the Far East. I don't think this should add any sort of a premium to second hand watches though, although it clearly does. Remember too there is a high turnover of stock shown on the dealers' forums, so there are a lot of watches that aren't immediately available to purchase direct from dealers at any one time (notwithstanding their own websites which maybe not everyone is aware of) - this will affect price (or at least sellers' price expectations). Buying second hand from members is often the only place for most people to get hold of a nicely modded watch - this bumps up overall prices too, as the value of these pieces is largely subjective. At the end if the day, purchasers on these forums will determine the prices sellers are charging - as long as there is someone willing to pay a premium for a used watch, prices will remain artificially high in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 (edited) http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...showtopic=31513 Have a look at this one... it is not even discontinued --- Oh yes, for my last sold watch I paid 260€ ... and sold for 155€ ... D'OH! Edited August 12, 2007 by piratedzeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CY0811 Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 (edited) Richard, you do buy and sell quite a few reps =). It seems that some used watches can get more money then others. Its also seems that some people like the idea that the watch has cleared customs and the potential flaws are uncovered causing them to pay a bit more. Bottom line, if the rep is overpriced it probably wont sell and the owner will have to drop the price. Edited August 12, 2007 by CY0811 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Have a look at this one... it is not even discontinued Isn't 913 aka Flavor-Flav here? Modded watches seem to be demanding high prices today, but that seems to be a recent concerted effort from a group of modders. I don't know if they're selling at those prices, however. I've noticed that some of this is due to the fact that the main two dealers no longer quote with postage/packing, meaning their prices are lower than what you'd actually have to pay. Even then, some prices are still a little silly. Still, some watches are now worth more than their original price. While this is not the norm, it's not surprising in as volatile a hobby as this. I usually aim watches at 25% off their retail and if there's no interest, I'll entertain offers. No-one should be expecting to be profiteering off second-hand watches, but there are a lot of gullible noobs out there we're supposed to be protecting that simply don't know the value of a replica. Imagine coming from Bluefakes to this site and seeing a private sale for a newish Sub for $400. Sure it's a rip-off by our terms, but they're going to see a half-price replica. The worst is, they'll be happy with that price if they don't stick around and read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I think you have to separate into different categories: Used watches at a premium - this amazes me but it is worth it to some people to buy one over concerns over customs or functionality when a better dealer will take care of any of these issues. I will admit that I would never have had the nerve to buy a seconds at 6 Daytona which had not been previously owned by someone else. Then again I was not paying a premium back then. Watches which are no longer made - Not surprising as a better rep is still a fraction of the price of the gen and so people will pay up for something they can no longer get. This is true on a much larger scale for the gens as well. Not surprising. Modded Watches - This is where there are some frightening prices being asked and I am wondering if people are paying them. The key question I would be asking (irrespective of the price) is who did the mods. For all the people doing modding there are only one or two who I would trust with my watch. The Holy Grail - Discontinued watches and/or watches with discontinued/gen parts and well-executed mods. They probably are worth a premium. For some of the PAM's and Rolexes where I have spent years assembling the parts and modding them I would simply not part with them. But if I did I would not think twice about asking a good amount of money. Then again I know who did the mods and I know the seller will be getting a well-functioning unique rep. I have to say that I have been offered $1,000 or more on an unsolicited basis on more than one occasion in the last year. And you know what, there will come a time when I will give in. But Richard you are right that it is a very different world. In "days of yonder" we would simply offer our watches at a 30-50% discount to clear the watch box and reload. With current prices we now have to think longer and harder before buying and selling for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 The last time I owned a Watchmaster vintage Pam, I let it go to another member for the same very reasonable price I paid when I had acquired it from it's former gentleman-collector-owner who had passed it on to me in the generous spirit of sharing a good and rare thing. I could have asked for and got the double, but my feeling was - to somewhat badly paraphrase the Patek slogan - that 'you never actually own a Watchmaster, you just look after it for the next generation.' What horseshit, but a great slogan nonetheless. I've never regretted that sale, but as certan particularly well-informed members here know, I'm a hopeless moron with a flawed sense of moral integrity. Whatever. It's my rep-utation, and I'll do as I like with it. p.s: I'd love to add that I more than made up for the potential killing I could have made on the Watchmaster by selling a bunch of low-end Silix pieces for more than twice what I paid for them to unsuspecting noobs, but I've kept all my Silix watches: great value for little money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Ryyannon- I appreciate the sentiment. When I got bored with my WM I just traded it with a well-known Rolex genius for one of his fabulously modded pieces. I stopped selling watches quite a while ago. But I also now buy fewer as I don't like the hassle of selling them. - Kruz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryyannon Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Ryyannon- I appreciate the sentiment. When I got bored with my WM I just traded it with a well-known Rolex genius for one of his fabulously modded pieces. I stopped selling watches quite a while ago. But I also now buy fewer as I don't like the hassle of selling them. - Kruz I appreciate your appreciation, Kruz! That way of dealing was typical of a certain number of elegant 'old timers' who were in it for the pleasure rather than the fever of acquisition and nickle-and-dimeing other members. Of course it takes all kinds, but even with the monumental flame-wars between some of the strong and clashing personalities that were around then, those were certainly kinder, gentler days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 (edited) This is a very interesting topic because there has been a lot of talk about the prices of reps lately especially since the explosion of the "Big Bang" (pun intended ). What surprises me most is people selling brand new hardly worn un-modded watched for the same or a few bucks more than our dealers offer. Its like they buy it, wear it for 6 months then try to sell it for what thay paid. I saw one submariner selling for $10 more than the collectors price about a month ago. Well ya.. in a perfect world... And i agree that some "super modded" franken watches are getting up there in price but a lot of time you get what you pay for (and depending who modded it as was mentioned) You get Gen parts and a LOT of labour. God i just spent 6 hours easy drilling my lugs and SELs on my 16610.. not to mention another couple of days to get the case to a perfectly beaten perfection. Theres a lot of time involved so that should be sometimes taken into consideration depending on the quality of the piece. This is where you have to look closely at the pics and maybe get a little history on the modder. ANd when i say all this im not talking about the highend reps with gen movements or the Zenith franken daytonas and watches of that caibre. Thats something completely different. Those are basicly gen watches built from many parts watches. Kinda like the difference between a "numbers matching" collector car and a similar car thats been changed around over the years. Back to what i was rambling on about... I would have no problem paying $600-800 for a perfectly modded MBW type 1665 with gen cyrstal, bars, crown etc if its done right and done with care. Otherwise if its just bolted together with some gen parts and case looks brand new and unworn like it just came out of the factory.. then its still a $400 MBW watch to me. I look at the "extras" put into a project.. the repolishing and refinishing, the care and attention to the little things that give it character... the vintage leather or the plastic crystal thats got distortion for many years of polishing. That old rolex-pam on leather that Flavor Flav is selling is worth every cent in my opinion becasue its a beautiful watch and looks just right to me. But then i'll see a "fiddy" (one of my favorite watches) thats well built but looks bright and shiny new and i wouldnt even want it. I cant stand to even look at a rep brand new out of the box. I have to immediatly attack it with my small hammer, sandpaper, then the dremel and polishing wheels before i will even wear it. The only exception in my collection is my Rollie day-date with diamonds. Its mint but it should be that way. My daytona is still new looking but its gunna get it soon trust me ha ha ha. Anyways.. Theres a lot we can discuss when it comes to deceiding whats worth what $. as i always say "you get what you pay for" and as long as you are dealing with an honest seller, then this is usually the case. The seller feedback section is there for this reason and its a very important part of our forum. Ive always been talking about my upcoming 16610 MBW project but you know what? I think im almost done my 16610 project as i have turned my BORING ETA noobmariner into what i call a work of art. I have no reason to build an MBW anymore as this chinese super rep is actually a great base to start with. The only thing i havent done is the gen crown and tube but i think i am gunna order one today and get that done. Then will my franken 16610 noob be worth $188.. $400...or even $600? I guess it depends on the buyer, and what the buyer finds important. If they want plain old acuracy then a new shiny noob is perfect at $100-188. If someone doesnt have access to modding tool and dremels and is afraid to chop up their own crown guards, then its prob worth $400. Once i add the gen crown and tube and perfect mag cyclops then maybe its worth $600. Its hard to tell. Im never gunna sell it anyways. I absolutely LOVE my "new" noobmariner. I've got blood, sweat and tears (literaly) invested in this watch and you will have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.... Lonnie Edited August 12, 2007 by L-dizzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slay Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Just take a look at eBay. Used things sell for the same price than brand new things. Sometimes they sell for even more. If a watch is in brand new condition (eg unworn or almost unworn) I dont think its too bad to ask them same price a dealer asks. You have to keep in mind, that there is a bonus of less customs risk. On the other hand, if a watch is heavily used, I'd expect to pay somewhat less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I've noticed Big Bangs that were purchased at the lower price have also since bumped up.. so I guess it's market forces and scarcity value. I wonder if they sell at the higher prices though? I imagine the dealers don't sell too many either. Personally, I've never got into the vintagizing process, and hope I don't... too much work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 firdst the 2nd hand market is alot bigger than it was 2 yrs ago hence higher prices second reps cost more so. maybe i get a bce for 300 wear it 4 times and sell it for 250 the percentage is high but 50 bucks for a wacth worn a few times is a good deal and if there were problems it has cost me more than 30 or 40 sometimes to ship back andget it resolved. third ! am poor. i cant afford to donate watches for under market pricing. fourth the market is pretty stable. if i price high it wont sell if i drop it sells quick the "good deals" are gone within an hour of posting and are not often seen. the mod markup is a problem as i am starting to see out right fraud in the mod market. can't wait to see the reaction when someone's pam36 gets advertised witha canon pin fix. the modding has gotten out of contol in my opinion and our members are getting ripped off. with the inflated pricing and mod fraud we may as well be rep center. but that is for another thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 what is crazy though is the person selling his used asian steelfish for 130 when silix now has them new for 100 always gotta check the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 There are a few reasons that I would say contribute to it. The 'super reps' have made a lot of the nice older reps obsolete for me. Watches I may have had some interest in six months ago, are now supplanted by newer watches, and these are less likely to show up on the 'for sale' section. Personally, I'm not as into modded watches as some. This makes me less interested in watching the sales section. I have to say it...I'm sure I'll get ripped on for it, but there's a weird culture around here. For the most part, it's a great group of people. But just the nature of reps, the 'grey-area' elements that we're all necessarily tied to, makes the valuations inherently subjective and prone to being exploited. I'm not a VIP member here yet...if I ever choose to sell any of my watches, I probably will be. Apparently there is a stigma associated with being around the board for a length of time without upgrading your membership. I find myself asking: what exactly would I be paying for? Am I paying for protection from the larger internet replica industry, whereby I'm protected from things like price-fixing? Well, the super-reps are price-fixed. I know that we all have collectively accepted that, in the desire to get the best watches, but that doesn't excuse it. Same thing goes for the issues raised in the "little white lies" thread. The very thing that the forum is supposed to guard against, it endorses. I realize that there is a scale of gradations and of concessions that are necessarily involved, but if I'm paying for the notion that I'm somehow protected from that by being a member, that criteria doesn't hold up to my own personal evaluation. There's the whole issue of 'modders' who are charging big dollars for their watches, who are essentially dealers, but because of their senior status, they're given a level of lee-way. There was an issue regarding that which came up in the sales forum very recently. The last thing I would want to do is negate the hard work that the admins and mods do here. I recognize that there's a lot of work that goes into it. The cost of maintaining a forum 'should' be able to be covered by advertising. I'm a mod on a much larger forum that is able to cover their maintenance costs by advertising on the site. Maybe I just don't understand some of the elements of expense that go on here. Quite possible. But it's not clear to me where the 'value' of a VIP membership lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 what is crazy though is the person selling his used asian steelfish for 130 when silix now has them new for 100 always gotta check the market. Phoband, what's the shipping cost from silix? Cause my first reaction to his pricing was really positive, but then when I factored in the cost of shipping, it ended up where he's pretty much in line with a lot of the other dealers. If that's a shipped price, then I might have to do some shopping... I know you're a stickler for AR, just as I am, but I haven't seen any prices or listing for the ETA version on his site. I'd be in the market for a Chopard MM GTXL and a Steelfish, if I could do it for under $400 shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Phoband, what's the shipping cost from silix? Cause my first reaction to his pricing was really positive, but then when I factored in the cost of shipping, it ended up where he's pretty much in line with a lot of the other dealers. If that's a shipped price, then I might have to do some shopping... I know you're a stickler for AR, just as I am, but I haven't seen any prices or listing for the ETA version on his site. I'd be in the market for a Chopard MM GTXL and a Steelfish, if I could do it for under $400 shipped. I have only bought a couple of reps from him, but i do know that the website is just the begining of the catalogue, he can get whatever. - so its always worth the inquiry. Personally, i'm using Precious Time - competitive pricing - excellent communication. I have some asian steelfish on he way i'm sending out as gifts - i'll let you know how it compares to my eta. - its not just the AR either, i think the asian is mineral crystal vs saphire -which i have to imagine especially in that thickness makes a difference. fyi, Mez - have i mentioned this month that your avatar freaks me out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 My work here is done then...just remember, he watches you while you sleep, too... Interesting to hear that he can get stuff that isn't on his website- that makes me think I should contact him about sourcing the ETA version. Silix seems to be a refreshing option...if not for his prices, just for the principle of rewarding a dealer who is trying to beat the price-fixing issue. I've heard great stuff about PT. I always wondered about the issue of the mineral vs. sapphire. I'd heard it mentioned a couple of times that the asian actually has sapphire, but that it's simply a marketing thing. The idea being that you try to build in some intangible qualities to help justify the premiums you're charging for the ETA. I'm sure there actually is mineral on the asian, but this is an example of what happens when you lose confidence- you start questioning everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 My work here is done then...just remember, he watches you while you sleep, too... Interesting to hear that he can get stuff that isn't on his website- that makes me think I should contact him about sourcing the ETA version. Silix seems to be a refreshing option...if not for his prices, just for the principle of rewarding a dealer who is trying to beat the price-fixing issue. I've heard great stuff about PT. I always wondered about the issue of the mineral vs. sapphire. I'd heard it mentioned a couple of times that the asian actually has sapphire, but that it's simply a marketing thing. The idea being that you try to build in some intangible qualities to help justify the premiums you're charging for the ETA. I'm sure there actually is mineral on the asian, but this is an example of what happens when you lose confidence- you start questioning everything... I'm not 100% on the mineral - but, i saw it listed somewhere as synthetic. - And silix is good. At least on par. The only problem i have with them is they only answer emails once a day - around 8 am my time and when your doing back and forth on the questions, it takes forever to order a watch. Precious time - (not angus) is also not into the price fixing - and has gone out of his way to work with me and is as responsive as josh ever was. So far no screw ups on the ordering which i can't say for my experience with TWP or Silix (both had sent me wrong colored items) I really followed Pugwash's lead on this one and i think he has it right. So at least for now, after a few months and several transactions searching for a new steady dealer with better pricing than josh's i'm sticking with precious time. Although i am moving away from reps somewhat i have my original models and gens that i am concentrating on at the moment. I have a no-name tourbillon coming this week - VERY excited about it i'm totally skewing dress watches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweattdogg Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 All of the above reasons I agree with and also it is what the market will bear. If people are asking the same price that they bought it for and are selling to people at that price then why go lower? The bottom line is that if you want to mark a piece that is almost new down 30-40% off what you paid for it, you inbox is gonna be full in 2 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Dear all, There is a lot of interesting statements and information in this thread, and I sincerely think it was a great idea to post it. Thanks Richard. As you might know, I'm very fresh in this hobby allthough I bought my first rep back in 1989 in Bangkok. I seriously started to buy reps in, say, may or june 2006. Then, I discovered Trusty on the net around november 2006 Finaly I discovered RWG in january 2007. So, I decided to spend the entire savings I had done for 2 years to get myself a genuine Rolex in this rep hobby. We're am I at now ? Collectors: There are no bad collectors I have dealt with. I bought from Andrew, Paul, PT, Ruby, TTK. None of them is bad, dishonest, ... It's you who should double check what you buy before saying "I'm disapointed, it's not as accurate I thought for such a respected dealer". They do not manufacture the watch, and some times don't even see them in persons. Few collectors touch your very own watch, look for them as at least you add 20% of chance you won't have to send it back right away. My main concern, but that might be due to my country, is customs issues with drop shippers. I really want to avoid the watches to arrive from Asia and for sure don't want to send them back because they were no checked prior sending. I now have my favourites and none of my watches are seized, nor I have to send them back. The watches themselves None of them are "perfect, ultimate, new generation, ...". I'm not even talking about accurancy. Only the time piece itself. As an example, I got overpriced watches from eBay that were, and still are, keeping better time than any of the modded or super reps I have, with no tech issues at all. I also got some super reps, very accurate looking though, that are a total nightmare: hard bracelets to size, crown falling off, mvt being several minutes late PER DAY. Quality control ? Ah, QC: no one does QC in my opinion. I only know one person who does, but I will not make more publicity to this person as you might think I have a % on the sales at the end of the day. Most of the collectors are drop shippers. Those who are not (very very few) might indeed control what they get from manufacturers before sending the item to you. Do you seriously think a collector can send back your watch to these manufactures saying "Hey, I think it's not as good as the last one you send me" ? No way. To establish such a relationship with the manufacturers, you need volume. Allthough we, at RWG, think we represent volume, we don't. The volume is made with the millions of spam eMails sent out every day. Not with us, that is sure. I gave all the tricks to one guy who fell in love with my Asian SFSO @ 100$ to come here, register and read. His answer was: I think I can find some people in the local chinese community to deal with. It will save me the custom risks. Sure, but he will get canal street sh*t and be disapointed very fast. You cannot educate people that are not willing to be. Modders! This is probably the worst point in our hobby guys and girl. Please, if you are new to the forums, read previous experiences of fresh members like me. Do not, ever, pay hundreds of dollars for mods before you know what to look for. You need to be able to control what has been done, or (more likely) not done or sometimes done wrong. As my boss would say: "never assume". It is not because you read great reviews about some "modders" that this or that guy is trustable. You need to read 10, 20, maybe even 50 superb comments on a particular mod from a member before being confortable with sending your watch to have the exact same mod performed. This without mentionning people who realise they have been scammed but do not want to create a public problem because their modder is soooo famous and respected. It has been said in this thread before, but I say it again : there are only two persons I trust when it comes to mods. And, while saying it, I also say I've tried severals. Second hand prices, the initial discussion Well, here I will second those of you who believe in the market. As long as there are buyers wanting to pay the price, the seller is entitled to ask for that price. Conclusion Buying second hand reps from member is cool. I've never had any issues, but of course, it could still happen. Some times I paid a fair price, some time a bargain, some time a bit more than I should. But, at the end of the day, if you want the item you look at, have the cash and are happy to spend it, what's wrong? Nothing. Cheers Stephane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin870 Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 I think a lot of people are buying from Ruby, Silix etc which are typically about 25% or even more lower than Josh and Andrew. They also buy strategically good buys with high demand. They wear the watch for six months or a year and take care of it. They get tired of it and toss it on the forum and someone who only thinks Josh or Andrew can be trusted purchases the watch for what these people bought it for. Prices in general are always moving up for the most part which helps used sales as well. Some products get discontinued. It is not exactly hustlers and suckers but more those who know how to work the system and those who do not. A lot of buyers just don't want to put the time into this hobby many of us have and continue to do. I can't blame them because some things I want to just grab a couple of toys and move on. I did this same thing with gun collecting and I never lost a nickel on a gun buying them strategically. I used them for years and some I sold for more than triple what I bought them for. Ebay does however show there are people out there who are dumb as a post about buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 The darkside has implemented a policy whereby users are not allowed to re-sell new watches at full retail, or sell used watches (unless they're modded MBW's, discontinued rare watches, etc...) at full retail value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin870 Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) The darkside has implemented a policy whereby users are not allowed to re-sell new watches at full retail, or sell used watches (unless they're modded MBW's, discontinued rare watches, etc...) at full retail value. Hmmm.... sounds pretty flawed. I can understand their efforts are well placed. However.....Is that full retail what they purchased their watch for originally or full retail now? Which dealer sets "retail" price? Who is to say what dealer the watch was purchased from originally and what special deal it was part of? Who knows where all these watches came from originally or used and what specific quality of parts may make one distinct from another? What constitutes a mod? I wish them luck in their pursuit of this. Edited August 18, 2007 by austin870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Used reps are worth what people are willing to pay for them - end of story. Usil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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