Pisssed off with the price of new reps!

[TeeJay]

Cheaper they may be....but they do NOT provide the same servce as dealers here.....you buy from a CQout / Ebay / Ioffer dealer.....and your item gets seized....or stolen....he'll be waving his postal receipts in your face and the auction sites......quicker than Paris Hilton responds to 'Action"..........

Sorry, but I've got to disagree there. I've had nothing but excellent service from dealers from such sites, and never had a problem with customs seizures. However, comments like "customs intercepted parcel..." "Item failed QC..." (from a drop-shipper who is physically incapable of QCing said product) I've only encountered in my dealings with 'recommended dealers', so forgive me for being somewhat scheptical, and feeling that people are being led (intentionally or otherwise) to believe that the sources here are the only sources. As before, I'm not trying to tar everyone with the same brush, but I don't think that it can be ignored, that the overwhelming opinion is that these are the only sources, when infact there are plenty of other sources available if people choose to use them. Also, when someone posted photos from such a site, it was imediately classed as a 'scam site', simply because it was not 'recommended.

and let's not forget their positive feedback.....from buyers who are in most instances signifcantly less educated about the differences in reps than members here are......

As you say yourself :

ignorance is bliss...CQOut and Ioffer sellers enjoy the same benefits as scam web sites do....an ill-educated buying public...

If they are happy with their product (and as long as it is not a fraudulent sale) then where is the problem?

don't ask me to believe that ALL the newer members here.....didn't browse ANY auctionsites before ending up and remaining here....!

I never did, so that's somewhat a false choice. All I pointed out, was that the forum consencus is that the recommended dealers can do no wrong (even when just the opposite has been proven on numerous occasion on a whole range of issues from prices to product accuracy to promises made by those dealers) and it gives the impression (again, intentionally or otherwise) that any other source is untrustworthy, when that simply is not the case.

And the 'fish in a barrel' belief is still a crock of [censored]....the phrase is meant to outline the lack of opportunity for escape....ANYONE can avoid the fishing hooks in here.....!

And on that point, I completely agree with you. Anyone (who knows the histories and practices of the dealers mentioned) can avoid the hooks and avoid them. Not everyone new here has that knowledge, so are more likely to 'follow the pack' in thinking that the listed sources are the only trustworthy ones. I think the 'fish in a barrel' belief is more a case of how certain dealers view the forums and the people who read them.

[Nebakanezzar]

I kinda think you are [censored]'in in the wind, without a doubt rep makers have been making a better quality and more accurat product (although their QC has not gotten any better). Making a better quality product not only costs more, but it ups the demand as well...so I dont forsee rep prices going down in the future...only up.

[robertk]

After reading all this, I've come to the conclusion that, rant's aside..............Nothing will change.

Capitalism is at work!

As PT Barnum said............"there's a sucker born every minute."

Ain't we all!

Keep those new models flowing.

[Pugwash]

As PT Barnum said............"there's a sucker born every minute."

Or rather he didn't, but we'll let you off.

"There's a sucker born every minute, but none of them ever die" - Joseph "Paper Collar Joe" Bessimer, Con Man, 1880s

[pammo13]

Joe you got to be kidding.......

[jeff g]

Nothing changes around here but the date.

And often that date is misaligned.

Pay what it is worth to you...or not.

[Guest TTK]

The dealers do not own these sites they are here at the grace of the Admin and as such have access to the cheapest advertising of the wares on the Net.

This...

Is exactly what I meant and damn right it exists or we would have a bloody hard job keeping dealers on these boards in the first place.

Ken

I'm not here at anybody's grace as a seller...I pay to sell on here.....I might be here as a 'member' by the grace of Admin.....but these boards would not exist without sellers...and there would be no 'grace' extended to any member..without sellers..... this is not a 'chicken and egg scenario'....the chicken came first....laid the egg...and you guys came looking for breakfast.........look at the old RWG...there is no Admin extending grace to anyone over there.......albeit it still exists in it's present form.....it died when they got rid of the sales section......if there were no senior members on there.....passing 'info' on where to 'buy' there would be no new blood on here....and if ALL the dealers suddenly realised there was more money to be made selling software with fewer problems...and fukked off and stoppped selling here...ALL the forums would die......people come here to BUY not natter......the nattering is a consequence of people BUYING.....!

The fish in a barrel analogy if you wish to apply it...can be expressed to both buyer and seller...the buyer provides opportunity for the seller to sell his wares.....and the seller provides opportunity to the buyer to acquire information and items that he wants to buy with a degree of security that is not as readily available outside the confines of the board. ....if that WERE the case there would be little repeat business for sellers on these boards....!

@TJ.....I never said this was the only place to buy.....I said it was NOT a place where members were being as ALLEGED.....'ripped off'........I also said that in general members here enjoy a degree of comfort that's sadly lacking elsewhere...despite your personal experiences.....I know for fact that most buyers who come here from auction sites.....rarely go back to buying from auction sites....preferring to deal with sellers here......despit the "little white lies"......misleading advertising and hyperbole...... these members know that collectively the members on here will 'out' a dealer more quickly and effciently than any collective..( if such a thing exists ),...on Ioffer or CQout ...Craigs'List etc.....there is no 'sense' of belonging nor camaraderie outside the confines of these boards.....I know for FACT....that no seller on CQout etc etc....will be "howled' down by a coterie of buyers on the auctionsite....neither is there the prospect of friendship on auction sites....as there is on these boards.....I have had fellow members and 'collectors' help each other out in a buy...letting others use their PP accounts...holding items for them....etc etc....that almost NEVER happens on either an offboard website or auction site.

Try speaking to someone on I-offer or CQout and tell him that you really like the Omega DeVille that he has advertised.....tell him that you are aware that it's a limited availability item and alsothat you know it's very much in demand.....then tell him that you need some time to gather the 60.00 GBP needed to buy it...and could he hold it for a month.....see the answer you will get.....it won't be positive.

As one prominent member here says....."where life happens .....people gather"....and where people gather.....there will always be whiny whingy moaning faced bar stewards who don't have two ha'pennies to rub together.....whinging and whining and moaning...... they're a lot like accountants.....they KNOW the price of everything....and the VALUE of nothing.....

Edited October 27, 2007 by TTK

[mag1119]

It seems that there is enough validity to go around on both sides, and while a necessary fair compromising point is needed (especially by the buyers and selers who frequent these boards) I wonder how we will reach it. As with any buyers of ANY goods and services - the lowest possible prices are sought, I'm sure we agree there. On the sellers' side is the marketplace, FMV (fair market value), cost of doing business (including all of the factors mentioned by TTK), the level of service, convenience and security offered by forum listed sellers, and the ability and right to make a fair profit for said goods and services. Where is that point, and who sets these levels? Most of the other statements (albeit factual) are ancillary to this. Yes, there ARE other places to shop, yes, the dealers can (and some do) profit and thrive on the uninitiated and higher prices to make up for their own cost of business, some raise their prices when they see we will pay more for the product with NO increase in product, QC, or services rendered; some lesser (in terms of quality and service) dealers are just riding the wave of increased prices. There exists NO consensus on either side as there is no collective way to organize either buyers or sellers in any meaningful way. For every dealer who absorbs costs and tries to keep prices decent - there are others who will keep jacking them up. For every buyer - or group of buyers who would act collectively to try and hold prices down - there are scores who would pay anything for any watch, knowingly or from ignorance. How and where do we bridge this gap, or is this the world OUR hobby/passion/obsession is destined to exist and stay in?

Edited October 27, 2007 by mag1119

[Guest TTK]

So...what dya suggest....we all join the Better Business Burea.......these are frickin' illegal items....there is no consensus....the price of coke can differ from Florida to LA to NY......some of you guys need to get real and also get with the program.....what kinda drugs are you on.....?

[Watchmeister]

TTK has it right. Everyone too quickly forgets that this is a black market. Black markets are always far more inefficient. Why? Perfect information is not available. You can't report problems to a "better business bureau." You can only vote with either your feet or your money. The internet is a wonderful anonymous place. Can you believe you can find dealer info, reviews of various items and even recommendations on items which are fundamentally illegal. And the information here is unbelievably good. Wouldn't it have been great to find a forum regarding illicit drugs in your youth. "I love the Maui Wowy from Dealer X. But it is not as good as Koana Kool. You can reach the Maui Wowy dealer at ...."

Most dealers are not selling here because they want to be your best friend. They do it because it is a convenient place to find a lot of buyers in one place. And it is a safe bet that most are trying to sell additional units away from the forum at higher prices. A few years ago most of the dealers on the reasonably honest forums were doing it part time. Now the majority of the dealers are doing this to put food on the table. Business is business. This market has evolved and professionalized.

Now on the prices of super reps keep tilting at windmills. Talk is cheap. Prices only go down when an item doesn't sell. So it is pretty simple - either buy or don't. If enough people don't buy dealers and factories will be stuck with excess inventory and lo and behold prices fall. An organized boycott won't work because even if we were the lionshare of a certain rep model (which I doubt and we will never know in any case) people can say one thing and act differently.

What super reps have forced me to do is to choose more carefully. Yes the number of reps I buy annually has fallen but the overall amount spent has increased. Oh well!

[ajoesmith]

I was the member who said they were peed of with the price of reps in the first place but i dont think a boycott is the answer.

Just wanted to make aware my feelings, if people want to continue to buy then so be it, its their choice and their money.

I resent the fact that i might be getting dragged down for this one too!

[Pugwash]

One of the reasons for the increase in prices is that suppliers/factories have seen that they can increase the prices as there are a lot of people wanting to sell replicas. This in turn means all dealers get hit by price rises. Couple this with our demand for better service and increased prices are an inevitability. A boycott won't change this.

[TeeJay]

I'm not here at anybody's grace as a seller...I pay to sell on here.....I might be here as a 'member' by the grace of Admin.....but these boards would not exist without sellers...and there would be no 'grace' extended to any member..without sellers.....

Regardless of sellers paying to sell here, that is just utter garbage. This forum, and others like it, exist to protect members from scam artists, and allow a forum for communication and community. Having 'recommended collectors', is just (depending on one's view) a bonus. Even if there were no sellers here at all, the community aspects of this (and other) forum(s) would still remain. To think otherwise is sheer arrogance on the part of dealers, and such attitudes are one of many issues that buyers are starting to take objections to.

@TJ.....I never said this was the only place to buy.....

And once more, that is a false argument. I never said that you did say that it was. I was not speaking solely about you, but an overall opinion which has developed and is perpetuated by the purchassing members.

I said it was NOT a place where members were being as ALLEGED.....'ripped off'........

What is ALLEGED about the 'little white lies' thread? What is ALLEGED about the 'Time has come to say something' thread? They contain proof and facts, there is nothing alleged about those accusations at all.

I also said that in general members here enjoy a degree of comfort that's sadly lacking elsewhere...despite your personal experiences.....I know for fact that most buyers who come here from auction sites.....rarely go back to buying from auction sites....preferring to deal with sellers here......despit the "little white lies"......misleading advertising and hyperbole...... these members know that collectively the members on here will 'out' a dealer more quickly and effciently than any collective..( if such a thing exists ),...on Ioffer or CQout ...Craigs'List etc.....there is no 'sense' of belonging nor camaraderie outside the confines of these boards.....I know for FACT....that no seller on CQout etc etc....will be "howled' down by a coterie of buyers on the auctionsite....

Oh I agree, such sites might not have forums, but what does that have to do with anything? The are SALES SITES. All they need to do is have sales. They don't HAVE to have discussion forums at all. As with your other point, you are creating a false argument. Sure, a dealer on CQout might not get ragged like A&J have been, but they can still be removed from the site if the admin receive complaints about them. Sure, there might not be a forum, but they are still bound to a code of conduct which the site upholds, so the issue of a forum is utterly irrelevent.

Try speaking to someone on I-offer or CQout and tell him that you really like the Omega DeVille that he has advertised.....tell him that you are aware that it's a limited availability item and alsothat you know it's very much in demand.....then tell him that you need some time to gather the 60.00 GBP needed to buy it...and could he hold it for a month.....see the answer you will get.....it won't be positive.

I hate to disagree, but that simply hasn't been my experience at all. I've never had a problem telling a dealer I had to wait for a cheque to clear before I could place an order and having them hold the goods.

As one prominent member here says....."where life happens .....people gather"....and where people gather.....there will always be whiny whingy moaning faced bar stewards who don't have two ha'pennies to rub together.....whinging and whining and moaning...... they're a lot like accountants.....they KNOW the price of everything....and the VALUE of nothing.....

I quite agree with that, but what does income or assets have to do with anything? From what I understand, people object to the prices of the new reps because they feel that the item is not worth the price charged. That's not to say that they CAN'T afford it, just that they feel it's an unjustified cost. As with anything, be it a watch, a pair of shoes, even just a CD, my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs" If one can afford it, buy it. If one can't afford it, save up. If one doesn't agree with the price, seek out a cheaper alternative...

[mag1119]

Right on, TeeJay!! On the contrary to some posts, I think WE ALL know this is a black market business, and hence the reason for despair over the lack of input/influence over pricing. The obvious choice is to vote with your feet or your money, and that is the ultimate recourse. Yes, you MIGHT find the same goods for less, you may not. You MAY be willing to sacrifice some aspects of doing business with the dealers on the forums, some may not. - let alone try to force the prices down. The global economy confirms there is room for these increases and until they become so outrageous or egregious that masses of buyers stay away (which I doubt) prices will continue to be where they are, or even higher as other forces besides the alleged price gouges come into play. What happens if the alleged movement shortage, or Chinese economic and political forces affect things? Much as folks rail against TTK and others, they do not control this, but their prices would be affected by it. I agree with TeeJay about this fact as well: "As with anything, be it a watch, a pair of shoes, even just a CD, my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs" If one can afford it, buy it. If one can't afford it, save up. If one doesn't agree with the price, seek out a cheaper alternative... Take heed and understanding to claims made by dealers such as TTK when he states some of his costs of doing business and subsequent pricing for services we often take for granted, and that would add significantly to the prices if they weren't there. If one wants to operate outside the known playing field, then these are risks and costs that WILL be borne. It will still come down to cost and whether it is worth it to act in any given way, buyer or seller.

[mag1119]

One of the reasons for the increase in prices is that suppliers/factories have seen that they can increase the prices as there are a lot of people wanting to sell replicas. This in turn means all dealers get hit by price rises. Couple this with our demand for better service and increased prices are an inevitability. A boycott won't change this.

You are right also, Pugwash. Not only would a boycott not change this, an organized boycott won't happen in my opinion. The world market is too scattered and there are too many people willing to pay whatever they are being charged. As long as the demands for service and quality are there, and the price of reps remains a fraction of gens, the market will florish. The only way the "market" is going to act in unison is if the prices become so onerous that people stop buying as much INDEPENDENTLY of each other, and the cumulative effect drives things down, like the comic book markets in the '90's. Just like people are willing to pay the higher prices independently of each other, if that all stopped (beacause each buyer made the decision for themselves) the number of people wiling to pay anything will be washed away by the number of people wanting stability,and then prices will stop rising, or rising so quickly.

[Guest TTK]

@TJ....there's no point in continuing to debate this.....you have your POV..and I have mine....but regardless of what you say....the facts speak for themselves.....whilst you may get a good deal outside of these boards.....the consensus is that members get a better deal in here....if that weren't the case more members would be buying off board.....!

I speak from experience of trading in both arenas.....for every little white lie thread....( and I believe that A&J definitely 'lied"......but I don't believe of them that there was a malicious intent to rip-off members....their actions and history prove otherwise....there are many members here who will in fact testify to their generosity of spirit ).....there are dozens of posts that appear on here and the other forums.... "look at this on Ebay /CQout "....posts which highlight the scams that DO take place off these boards....ignorant browsers of the auction sites fall prey to these scammers who EXIST on all these auction sites....and those sellers do scam the buyers there....for prices waay in excess of anything you'll ever see here......with little or no interaction from other auction browsers....in fact most of the alarm bells regarding these OFF FORUM scams are rung by vigilant members here who report these scams.....!

I do NOT see auction site buyers posting in here that such and such a seller on this board is SCAMMING the members here.....that doesn't happen..... !

We have our share of scammers....the Luuckys of our world.....it's inevitable that situations such as that will happen from time to time.....but it happens less and less often nowadays...with the extra security features that Admin has put in place....and a greater degree of vigilant members...!

I'm happy that you've had a positive experience buying off board...but your positive buying experience is someone else's unhappy experience....it happens off board and on board.....difference is....when it happens onboard you're more likely to have a positive outcome.....!

As for pricing.....that's up to the dealers and buyers......when they become too expensive..buyers won't buy....when buyers become too demanding sellers will find other outlets.....my last word on the matter is simple......this is an illegal business....with consequences for the seller and NOT the buyer.....so if you or anyone else thinks that I'm going to reduce my prices .....minimise my profit to keep a few cheapskates happy....bringing better quality reps....with better service all round...... whilst carrying ALL of the the risk.....think again....if I'm going to jail ......I'm gonna be sitting in there saying ...'well at least I made a few bob".....not...."well I was aways fair in my pricing to board members....even tho I didn't make much money"......whilst you're gazing longingly at your Sub which you bought on Ioffer.....what VALUE do YOU place on YOUR liberty......I know what I placeon mine.....and it doesn;t even come close to..."I want the best rep with the best service....and I want it for 2 and theepence ha'penny"...........so you have 3x choices.....like it......lump it.......or p i ss of to CQout........capice......nuff sed......!

Edited October 28, 2007 by TTK

[narikaa]

What a lot of bally hoo

Its oh so simple

Do what I do

Examine the super rep,

If it doesnt come up to my perceived value of the asking price, I pass it by.

If a watch doesnt measure up to the price (and increasingly more dont) dont buy it.

Very simple

All the hissy fits & tantrums in the world wont get it you at your preordained desired price.

Bit like putting a max bid on FeeBay, if another bidder takes it beyond that, wave it goodbye & move on.

.

[Pugwash]

I speak from experience of trading in both arenas.....for every little white lie thread....( and I believe that A&J definitely 'lied"......but I don't believe of them that there was a malicious intent to rip-off members....their actions and history prove otherwise....there are many members here who will in fact testify to their generosity of spirit ).....there are dozens of posts that appear on here and the other forums....

I've come to believe that the white lies thread served its purpose. At first I was shocked by the lack of response it got, but looking back, the dealers know we're watching and have changed their practices a little. The Cartel saw the line they shouldn't cross and, surprisingly, they haven't crossed it. Sure, they charge more (for reasons that we've been into a thousand times) but they're a lot more honest in their descriptions.

[TeeJay]

@TJ....there's no point in continuing to debate this.....you have your POV..and I have mine....but regardless of what you say....the facts speak for themselves.....whilst you may get a good deal outside of these boards.....the consensus is that members get a better deal in here....if that weren't the case more members would be buying off board.....!

But that is entirely the point I have been trying to illustrate! It is an opinion which has evolved on the forums, and is perpetuated by them. It might well be the mass consensus, but that does not make it a fact, because the FACT is that there ARE other dealers elsewhere who are capable of providing a good product and service, rather than the impression given that ALL dealers apart from the ones 'recommended', are scammers, and that is just not true. Also, this is not a case of our opinions being different, I can totally respect that. The point I am illustrating, as above, is not a case of your opinion or my opinion, just that the 'overall forum opinion' about 'off-site' dealers, is simply misleading.

I speak from experience of trading in both arenas.....for every little white lie thread....( and I believe that A&J definitely 'lied"......but I don't believe of them that there was a malicious intent to rip-off members....their actions and history prove otherwise....there are many members here who will in fact testify to their generosity of spirit ).....

Again, I totally agree with you there. That said, on a personal level, I don't feel that such acts of generousity should be used to overlook/justify/cover up the lies that were made. As I've said before, it doesn't matter if someone lies a little, or lies a lot. A liar is a liar, and can only be trusted to lie. But that's not really the issue of this topic.

there are dozens of posts that appear on here and the other forums.... "look at this on Ebay /CQout "....posts which highlight the scams that DO take place off these boards....ignorant browsers of the auction sites fall prey to these scammers who EXIST on all these auction sites....and those sellers do scam the buyers there....for prices waay in excess of anything you'll ever see here......with little or no interaction from other auction browsers....in fact most of the alarm bells regarding these OFF FORUM scams are rung by vigilant members here who report these scams.....!

Again, no argument, of course there are going to be a few 'bad apples', but, as I mentioned previously, on those sites, if a dealer is complained about by buyers, they are removed from the site. I've seen it happen on LoudFrog (which also, as point of note, does have a community forum) and I have no doubt that it would also happen on eBay and CQout.

I do NOT see auction site buyers posting in here that such and such a seller on this board is SCAMMING the members here.....that doesn't happen..... !

I've said several times about how disatisfied I am with the service I got from Silix. I think it would be fair to say that they scammed me as I am still waiting for goods paid for nearly three months ago...

I've also pointed out the lies of A&J, as have others. And, I primarily, buy from auction sites, because in matters like this, I prefer to trust my own instincts rather than follow the flock, and, as mentioned before, my only serious issues have been when dealing with a 'recommended dealer', where any minor glitches with auction sellers, have been immediately and satisfactorily remedied. Again, only my experience, but it does rather support the opinion that the opinion "Only forum dealers are honest, off-site dealers are all scammers!" is nothing more than propoganda and rhetoric for the masses.

We have our share of scammers....the Luuckys of our world.....it's inevitable that situations such as that will happen from time to time.....but it happens less and less often nowadays...with the extra security features that Admin has put in place....and a greater degree of vigilant members...!

Absolutely, and in most cases, those scammers are immediately banned. Why Admin has not banned A&J, I will never understand, as I feel the evidence there would be more than enough to get any other newcoming dealer barred, and the way that they have lied and manipulated people, should be enough to make folks realize "Sure, they were okay in the past, but aren't as trustworthy now, and something should be done to protect forum buyers from them" Afterall, that is why forums like this exist: To protect buyers.

I'm happy that you've had a positive experience buying off board...but your positive buying experience is someone else's unhappy experience....it happens off board and on board.....difference is....when it happens onboard you're more likely to have a positive outcome.....!

As I mentioned above, nearly a 3 month wait on a jubilee bracelet and new watch dial from Silix. No communication, no parcels in the mail, nothing. If I was to email, I'm sure something would arrive within a few weeks, but I'm not prepared to chase such trivial items, and it's not my job as a buyer, to make sure that he, as a dealer, makes good on his promises. If he tells me a dial will be shipped, then I expect it shipped. If it gets confiscated by customs, (which has never happened with any of my purchases) then I would at the very least, expect an email informing me of this, and an option of either another delivery, or a refund. Now, I've had no positive outcome on that issue. What will me complaining about it on the board achieve? In terms of getting the goods sent, absolutely nothing. In terms of maybe informing people that Silix is a lying drop-shipper, it might be of use... As for unhappy experiences off-board, then it's just a case of common sense and the usual rules apply. Read the feedback, both positive and negative, evaluate the product, ask questions, and if happy, go for it. If not, look elsewhere. As long as people use those simple guidelines, they should have no reason to fall victims to the more obvious scammers who have not already been removed from the sites.

As for pricing.....that's up to the dealers and buyers......when they become too expensive..buyers won't buy....when buyers become too demanding sellers will find other outlets.....

Absolutely so. That said, if buyers demands are reasonable, and a seller is simply not prepared to be reasonable, then their moving on is no big loss.

my last word on the matter is simple......this is an illegal business....with consequences for the seller and NOT the buyer.....so if you or anyone else thinks that I'm going to reduce my prices .....minimise my profit to keep a few cheapskates happy....bringing better quality reps....with better service all round...... whilst carrying ALL of the the risk.....think again....if I'm going to jail ......I'm gonna be sitting in there saying ...'well at least I made a few bob".....not...."well I was aways fair in my pricing to board members....even tho I didn't make much money"......whilst you're gazing longingly at your Sub which you bought on Ioffer.....what VALUE do YOU place on YOUR liberty......I know what I placeon mine.....

That's absolutely fair enough, but at the end of the day, yes, this is an illegal business, but at the end of the day, that is a fact which all dealers were aware of when getting into the business, and a choice they made to accept themselves, and while there are certain aspects of it which translate into costs, that does not mean that dealers have the right to keep turning round and saying "This is an illegal business, I don't want to go to jail shipping this or that..." If that's really the opinion someone has, then don't be a dealer anymore. If someone isn't happy in their job (and this is an opinion which I apply to any job) then they should quit and get a new one. I know a few people might forget that the rep-trade is illegal, but the vast majority know and accept that, know that certain factors involve certain costs, and don't begrudge dealers those costs. What they DO begrudge, is ludicrously priced watches like the HBB, which, at the end of the day, is just a watch with a notoriously unreliable movement inside, and when this fact is mentioned, dealers turn round and say "Oh but I have all these risks to deal with!" as if that in itself is justification for the price. Sorry, but that's just a deflection tactic by triggering guilt and sympathy. Yes, there are risks, some create legitimate costs, others, ie the mechanics of the watch itself, do not, and those are the costs which people are objecting to, but getting fobbed off with a guilt-trip from someone who, at the end of the day, feels the risks are too great, could simply cut their losses and retire.

and it doesn;t even come close to..."I want the best rep with the best service....and I want it for 2 and theepence ha'penny"...........so you have 3x choices.....like it......lump it.......or p i ss of to CQout........capice......nuff sed......!

As I said above, my opinion has always been "It costs what it costs", so that's not something I object to. As for 'pi55ing off to QCout', I'd much rather do that and stick with the dealer I know I can trust, from MY OWN personal experience. Infact, the only times I do use a different dealer, is if there is a watch which my own dealer cannot acquire for me (as I did with the VCO I reviewed) If that means using a forum dealer, then that doesn't bother me, as I've been trying to say, the only thing that bothers me, is that there are a load of dealers who choose not pay to sell here, are still perfectly trustworthy and capable of delivering a product as promised, but being tarnished by the rhetoric and propoganda that any dealer other than a 'recommended dealer' is a scammer.

[TeeJay]

I've come to believe that the white lies thread served its purpose. At first I was shocked by the lack of response it got, but looking back, the dealers know we're watching and have changed their practices a little. The Cartel saw the line they shouldn't cross and, surprisingly, they haven't crossed it. Sure, they charge more (for reasons that we've been into a thousand times) but they're a lot more honest in their descriptions.

The $64,000 Question though, is would The Cartel have become more honest in their descriptions and practices had those threads not been posted...

[hambone]

The price of gasoline is going up, so is milk, beer and widgets.

Replica watches are indeed black market items and price control is not possible, yet because they are copies of famous brands,

there must be a limit to how far the manufacturers and sellers can take the prices. I am sure that if all prices were cut 50% across the board on rep watches that there would still be people complaining. If you don't like the price then don't buy it. We are talking about luxury items not goods we need to survive.

[Pugwash]

The $64,000 Question though, is would The Cartel have become more honest in their descriptions and practices had those threads not been posted...

I do believe that they would not have become more honest without the thread. Like I said, the thread served its purpose. The cartel realised honesty was an overlooked part of business and they shifted to market pressure.

[TeeJay]

I do believe that they would not have become more honest without the thread. Like I said, the thread served its purpose. The cartel realised honesty was an overlooked part of business and they shifted to market pressure.

Indeed. Time will tell if things remain thus, or if there will indeed be reports in the future of 'serviced/waterproofed' watches leaking or running dryer than what goes on after Choir Practice with Father Chester

[Watchmeister]

Of course we will never solve the issue - if there is one. The market will. My perception is that folks in general (at least those that have been around for awhile) are buying less and more carefully. The market is always changing and buyers will always change their buying habits as they see fit. And we should not loose sight of the fact that the manufacturers respond to the revised market. Oh yeah, we call that a free market. Already there are HBB lites and the new Slevin is supposed to be better than the CD and less expensive. At least things are going the other way where the "best" (and I use that term loosely) version comes first and then a less expensive alternative follows. Whether it is HBB or 2893's followed by 2836's or 2892-A2's being followed by Asian Power Reserves. Couple these developments with the forum where you can read about other folks' experiences with a particular model and life is pretty good.

[Pugwash]

Oh yeah, we call that a free market.

There's no such thing as a free market.