DW 6263 vs Cartel 6263

[pauld]

Guys,

After all the tasty shots of vintage rollies lately, i've decided to pull the pin and get my self a 6263. Your thoughts would be appriciated on the following; DW tells me he can supply a complete 6263 with rep vj23 for $150 more than the cartel guys with their 6263 sporting the Lemania/venus movt. Is the DW far superior in build/movt, or.......pretty much the same as the josh/trusty piece?

The DW does look very nice.........very accurate, but then.....is it? or am i just convincing myself the extra cash will make it better?

Not that fussed about building a DW which is why i'm looking at the complete option.

words of wisdom welcome..

[freddy333]

The fact is that the Lemania/Venus-powered Daytonas have some problems - symmetrical pusher arrangements, 20mm lug widths (should be 19mm), smallish subdials with a non-functioning hour totalizer (subdial at 6), all of which are incorrect for 62xx spec Daytonas. However, those movements are proven to be both stable and accurate. And getting a fully-assembled watch offers alot of benefits, starting with being able to wear the watch as soon as it arrives.

I have owned this Lemania/Venus 6241 for several years & it keeps perfect time. The only problem I ever had with it was that the rep crown tube stripped soon after I received the watch (being a manual-wind movement, the watch requires regular winding and most rep crown tubes are not up to the task) and I had to fit a gen replacement (along with a crown). I suspect this is similar to the watch you are considering from Josh/Andrew (I think they improved the dial since I got mine, which has a noticeable 'bleed' where the bottom of the hour totalizer subdial was actually touching the white area on the outside of the dial).

On the other hand, as they say, god is in the details. And the other fact is that the gen vintage Daytonas had asymmetrical pushers (the top pusher was slightly closer to the crown than the bottom pusher) and none of the collectors here (that I am aware of) sell any Daytonas that have the correct pusher arrangement. So the only option (currently) is DW.

I would recommend that you spend a couple of days searching & reading other members' experiences with owning and/or constructing a DW watch. For many, the last few details of accuracy are not worth the cost in time or money spent.

[pauld]

The fact is that the Lemania/Venus-powered Daytonas have symmetrical pusher arrangements, which is incorrect. However, those movements are proven to be both stable and accurate. And getting a fully-assembled watch offers alot of benefits, beginning with being able to wear the watch as soon as it arrives.

On the other hand, as they say, god is in the details. And the other fact is that the gen vintage Daytonas had asymmetrical pushers (the top pusher was slightly closer to the crown than the bottom pusher) and none of the collectors here (that I am aware of) sell any Daytonas that have the correct pusher arrangement. So the only option (currently) is DW. But I would recommend that you spend a couple of days searching & reading other members' experiences with owning and/or constructing a DW watch. For many, the last few details of accuracy are not worth the cost in time or money spent.

Hi Freddy

When asking DW if he supplied complete watches, i was told me yes with the vj23 movt. I was a little puzzled as just prior to this i received another email for him listing the kit for vj72. This being the case, i stated i would be happy for the complete watch thus bypassing the build problems others have had, but still having a DW.

I suppose, all i'm trying to find out is that the ready build DW is not the same watch as the cartel one. Oh!.............i'm confused...

[freddy333]

The Cartel, as you refer to them, are selling a Venus-powered watch while DW is selling a Valjoux 23-powered watch. Two completely different beasts. Were it me, I would go with DW without a doubt. But, for me, accuracy is my sole goal. Still, before going the DW route, I would encourage you to read some of the recent posts from other DW owners, a few of whom were less than satisfied with their purchase.

[pauld]

The Cartel, as you refer to them, are selling a Venus-powered watch while DW is selling a Valjoux 23-powered watch. Two completely different beasts. Were it me, I would go with DW without a doubt. But, for me, accuracy is my sole goal. Still, before going the DW route, I would encourage you to read some of the recent posts from other DW owners, a few of whom were less than satisfied with their purchase.

Hi Freddy

Thanks for your help and advice. All is becoming clear.................

[freddy333]

One final comment - I have purchased watches from all of the above and have never had a problem that went unresolved with either of these collectors. If you do go with a DW, be very clear in your communications to him. English is not his first language and a seemingly minor (and obvious) detail to you could translate into a very big (and unfortunate) misunderstanding later on. If you do not understand something, ask DW about it. He will work with you.

Good luck & do not forget to post pictures.

[alligoat]

Let me chime in here on one thing. DW's V23 watch is more likely a mystery movement, not a true V23. Avitt and Ziggy were discussing it the other day in a post- no one really knows what the movement is. However, similar to the v72 kit, the so-called v23 watch can take a v23 movement fairly readily, should you find one. A v23 can maybe still be found for $400-600. V72's are scarce at $650 and up and can easily run around $1000- esp. after servicing. And servicing the MM, as it is called, can be hit or miss. If successful, you've got a good little watch. If not, you got a pile of parts.

But of course, the watch has the assymetrical pushers and a frozen subdial at 6 o'clock- the MM is bi-compax of course, as is the V23. This makes it nicer than the Lemania-type watches from the other guys. But I noticed Josh had the Lemania-type watch in a 37mm case now with a frozen 6 o'clock subdial- but still symmetrical pushers.

[freddy333]

I noticed that too. So there are 2 less things the owner has to worry about if they buy one of these watches. But, like Alligoat said, the V23 or MM still has the correct asymmetrical pusher layout, which the Lemania/Venus options do not.

And not to beat a dead horse beyond death, but this is why I think there is a niche for a 7750-powered 62xx with asymmetrical pushers.

[kevin300z]

DW supplied me with a 7750-powered 62xx with asymmetrical pushers. He forgot 2 things in shpping though. I didn't get the silver bezel and the smaller hands aren't pointed, they are square on the edges. The dial was not in perfect shape as well.

I noticed that too. So there are 2 less things the owner has to worry about if they buy one of these watches. But, like Alligoat said, the V23 or MM still has the correct asymmetrical pusher layout, which the Lemania/Venus options do not.

And not to beat a dead horse beyond death, but this is why I think there is a niche for a 7750-powered 62xx with asymmetrical pushers.

[alligoat]

I guess there's a heirarchy of Daytona 6263's so to speak:

1. A new cartel 6263 w/ Lemania movt, 37mm case, fixed 6 subdial, like Josh's at $238 plus s&h if necessary (or a 40mm asian V7750 for about the same price)

2. A Dw rep v23 (really a MM) w/ assymetrical pushers, fixed 6 subdial, around $150 more

3. The yet to be released asian 7750/7760 DW, three working subdials, assymetrical pushers, manual wind. Around $800

4. The DW v72 kit, add your own V72, some gen parts, etc, work, work work. Around $1500-2500.

All are subject to needing a service- add $200-300 depending on movt type. The Lemania (is it a Seagull ST18, or 19) might be the least prone to prompt servicing, but who can say.

[kevin300z]

My 7750 is an automatic wind which is why I went with this movement.

[freddy333]

My 7750 is an automatic wind which is why I went with this movement.

Yes, the 7750 is auto-wind, which certainly makes the watch more user-friendly. But a manual-wind movement was specified for the 62xx Daytonas. The proposition was to swap the 7750 for a (manual-wind) 7760, which would also then allow for the shallower caseback to be fitted (your 7750 has a taller caseback to fit the auto-wind components). I removed the rotor on my 7750 to achieve a similar effect and then fit an extra DW (V72) caseback to bring the overall case height into proper spec (and match the V72 DW). But, otherwise, I think Alligoat's list is about correct.

[Guest avitt]

1. A new cartel 6263 w/ Lemania movt, 37mm case, fixed 6 subdial, like Josh's at $238 plus s&h if necessary (or a 40mm asian V7750 for about the same price)

2. A Dw rep v23 (really a MM) w/ assymetrical pushers, fixed 6 subdial, around $150 more

3. The yet to be released asian 7750/7760 DW, three working subdials, assymetrical pushers, manual wind. Around $800

4. The DW v72 kit, add your own V72, some gen parts, etc, work, work work. Around $1500-2500.

The only changes that I'd suggest here are the addition of the DW v23 kit, with genuine VJ23, in the fourth spot (pushing the DW v72 kit to position 5.

[alligoat]

I'd agree w/ you avitt, and certainly kevin's auto 7750 DW fits in there also. And on the high end of the spectrum is Jewelry and Watch with his all out expensive vintage Daytonas- w/Rolex plates, bridges, etc. You can spend a ton of money and get awfully close to nirvana if you are so inclined.

[freddy333]

Looks great, Kevin. And, like mine, even though the dial has issues, you still have to do a double-take to be sure it is not a gen because of those pushers. In fact, had I seen the watch in a different context and not known its source, I would still not be absolutely sure it was not a gen. The asymmetry of the pushers set these watches apart from all other reps (except for the DW/EE).

As Euno pointed out to me some time ago, the black dialed versions tend to look better with the black bezel. So unless you really want the steel bezel, you might leave it as is.

And these watches came (from Rolex) with any of 3 or 4 types (and variations) of chrono hands. Some were wide with pointed ends, some were narrow with pointed ends, some were narrow with flat ends & there were a smaller number that had 1 narrow flat ended hand for the running seconds and a matched pair of one of the other types for the other 2 hands. Here is an example of the latter option

[freddy333]

I got lucky and my DW MM has been a champ. Here's the version-2 model that he released after he fell off the face

of the earth the first time. Who can spot the two distinguishing features?

The bezel, but I do not see anything else that stands out?

[Guest avitt]

I got lucky and my DW MM has been a champ. Here's the version-2 model that he released after he fell off the face

of the earth the first time. Who can spot the two distinguishing features?

Coronet on dial is a little too high? Slightly larger case bulge in the area of the crown?

[eunomians]

The DW movement will last you 2 days before it dies. And when it goes to heaven, NOBODY can bring her back to life.

[tmg]

Yes, the V2 dials are definitely improved. This is my MM 6263 with a transplanted VJ23 and a V2 dial.

Euno is right the MM model is pretty much a time bomb waiting to go off. Nanuq you're one of the lucky ones! I had another DW MM and it arrived dead.

[Guest avitt]

Great looking Daytona, tmg

[freddy333]

Nice tmg. I never get tired of seeing these DWs, no matter what is ticking inside.

Did the watch come with the hour totalizer frozen or did you have to do that? And if you did, what did you use?

[tmg]

Nice tmg. I never get tired of seeing these DWs, no matter what is ticking inside.

Did the watch come with the hour totalizer frozen or did you have to do that? And if you did, what did you use?

Thanks F.

It had to be frozen, a friend did the work on it but I believe it was glued.

[freddy333]

It had to be frozen, a friend did the work on it but I believe it was glued.

Do you know if he glued the hand directly to the dial face or did he fit the hand to a short piece of tube or pinion and then glue the tube/pinion to the movement below the dial?

I have a V23 that I want to use to relaunch the Flytimer dial (which came with a V72 that now resides in one of the Daytonas) & I am looking at options for fitting the dummy hour totalizer hand.

[Guest avitt]

Do you know if he glued the hand directly to the dial face or did he fit the hand to a short piece of tube or pinion and then glue the tube/pinion to the movement below the dial?

I have a V23 that I want to use to relaunch the Flytimer dial (which came with a V72 that now resides in one of the Daytonas) & I am looking at options for fitting the dummy hour totalizer hand.

I've glued a couple of these, using GS Hypo Cement to place the hand directly on the dial. My technique was to place a small drop of glue on a piece of paper. Holding the hand with a set of tweezers, I lowered it gently onto the drop of glue, picking up just the smallest amount. Then, I just placed the hand precisely onto the subdial.

The GS Hypo dries perfectly clear, so even if you have a little squeeze-out it won't be noticed. The result are relatively indiscernible. This is an older picture, where I had fit a silver dial to a DW, before he made the silvers available:

[freddy333]

I've glued a couple of these, using GS Hypo Cement to place the hand directly on the dial. My technique was to place a small drop of glue on a piece of paper. Holding the hand with a set of tweezers, I lowered it gently onto the drop of glue, picking up just the smallest amount. Then, I just placed the hand precisely onto the subdial.

The GS Hypo dries perfectly clear, so even if you have a little squeeze-out it won't be noticed. The result are relatively indiscernible. This is an older picture, where I had fit a silver dial to a DW, before he made the silvers available:

Looks good, Avitt. I may end up likewise gluing the hand, but I worry that the GS might fade or damage the Fly's delicate black paint, which is already weaked with age. Of course, it will only be an issue if the hand falls off and takes some of the underlying paint on the dial with it. For that reason, I was trying to figure out a way to mount the hand to a small piece of pinion or tubing that I could then glue to the movement's pillar plate.