RWG Technical Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Yesterday there was a HBB post where someone mentioned that the movement was a older 21.6K version, due to the balance having a fine adjust. I commented from the pictures that were listed, the movement looked to be a newer 28.8K model. And not having seen anything but new 7750's for the past 18 months, it seemed a step backwards to go back to the 21.6K model... Well the horological gods have decided to enlighten me, or actually make me eat my words from yesterday. Look what I see on the bench this morning. Looks like a new A7750, sandblasted finish on the bridges, etc, but the balance c0ck does have the fine adjust...hmmm.... A closer look, and what's this I see...why is the mainplate chromed and not flat finished like the rest of the bridges and plates. The 21.6K 7750 is all chromed with tooling marks visible all over...deja vu all over again... And then an even closer look reveals something I have never seen before. This is a quasi 21.6K 7750 with 28.8K parts on it. Here's the giveaway you need to look closely at, check out the mainplate finish and the pallet c0ck and screws, only 1 screw on the 21.6K model: So as I take it apart, I discover that the mainplate, all the gears etc are indeed 21.6K parts, even the mainspring barrel is the older version. But the top parts (non functional) are all new 28.8K. So from first inspection, it looks new, but it's actually just a fancied up 21.6K model. This was sold as a 28.8K model. Not hard to see that it's an older 7750 once it's taken apart. FYI this is a 28.8K balance, check out the sandblasted flat finish on the mainplate, but more importantly, you need to look for this screw on the pallet c0ck, this is how you spot the differences. Can't help but wonder why and what this all means...why use an old mainplate with a bunch of new parts, makes no sense to me... NOTE that this is a brand new unworn watch just purchased... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UB7 Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 The Zigmeister, I might have an answer to your question...Is this exclusively in the HBB's? If so, It kind of looks like they made a half a$$ attempt to copy hublots new in house movement? I could very well be wrong tho..It kinda looks like they tried to make the plates and bridges look like tungsten.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryaku Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 That sucks. Thanks for sharing your knowledge as usual The Zigmeister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrgod Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Very interesting, thanks for the info! I have noticed during the last months that several of the new offerings had 7750 movements with the old style balance [censored]. Guess they have a bunch of old parts to use, or maybe a new factory has been involved. On a side note, it is also interesting to see that the Chinese 7750 starts to turn up in "brand-watches", at least the Apogaum watches on eBay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 This movement is from an IWC 3717 if that helps... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 This movement is from an IWC 3717 if that helps... Ah yes, the cartel's version of the 3717 was a 21k6. People were happy to have it so they could swap out the A7750 for an ETA model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Ah yes, the cartel's version of the 3717 was a 21k6. People were happy to have it so they could swap out the A7750 for an ETA model. Understood. But I am not sure why the movement base would matter, I have swapped many new 28.8K 7750's with ETA's, and never had a problem or issue, sure you need to mod the hands to fit, but it's not impossible to do. The owner of this watch says in his letter "...service my HIGH BEAT 7750..." so he was mislead...intentionally or not. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Interesting and disturbing post. I assume they did this to save money. When you have spare parts laying around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Understood. But I am not sure why the movement base would matter, I have swapped many new 28.8K 7750's with ETA's, and never had a problem or issue, sure you need to mod the hands to fit, but it's not impossible to do. The owner of this watch says in his letter "...service my HIGH BEAT 7750..." so he was mislead...intentionally or not. RG Hi, The Zigmeister, interesting and unfortunately not surprising post. Quick question on the 28.8k Asian to Swiss 7750 retrofits you've done... I was led to believe an issue with that was the subdial hands had holes slightly larger than the genuine 7750 posts. So assuming this is true, then to do the retrofit are you adding glue to make up for the extra space? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I was led to believe an issue with that was the subdial hands had holes slightly larger than the genuine 7750 posts. I thought it was the other way around. The holes are slightly smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryaku Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Mine 3717 has the same movement but it was sold to me as low beat 7750. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I thought it was the other way around. The holes are slightly smaller. Data posted in ajoesmith's 7750 group buy thread indicated the holes are slightly larger. You could easily broach the holes if they were smaller, but it looks like the holes were 0.03 mm larger as memory serves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Data posted in ajoesmith's 7750 group buy thread indicated the holes are slightly larger. You could easily broach the holes if they were smaller, but it looks like the holes were 0.03 mm larger as memory serves. Well, I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Can't hurt to have the info in more than one thread. So, it would appear as though swiss retrofits of non-Dayona 28.8k Asian 7750s are troublesome, no? Hand size info as originally posted by The Zigmeister: Genuine ETA 7750 all variants (all) Hour 2.00mm Minute 1.20mm Center Seconds 0.25mm Subdials 0.17mm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Old Asian 7750 version all variants(21,600 BPH) Hour 2.00mm Minute 1.20mm Center Seconds 0.25mm Subdials 0.17mm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Asian 7750 (28,800 BPH) Normal ones - NOT the Daytona model Hour 2.00mm Minute 1.20mm Center Seconds 0.20mm Subdial 0.20mm Also note on the New 7750, the center seconds post, is below the top of the minute hand tube. On all other versions of the 7750, the center seconds post is about 1mm above the minute hand tube, not below it. Therefore the center seconds hand on the new 7750's, has an extra long tube on it, to make up this height difference. So not only is the hand smaller in diameter, it's longer as well... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Asian 7750 Daytona model (28,800 BPH) Hour 2.00mm Minute 1.20mm Center Seconds 0.20mm Subdial 0.17mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Can't hurt to have the info in more than one thread. So, it would appear as though swiss retrofits of non-Dayona 28.8k Asian 7750s are troublesome, no? ... and it backs up what I was thinking. You need to broach the centre seconds. The subdial hands would just need pinching slightly. They don't have enough stress on them to be a problem if they were slightly looser. The Zigmeister, am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammo13 Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Do you think there is only one bastardized movement, and that is the movement you get no matter what you order. All in the marketing................................... p.s. Did anyone listen to the movement ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryaku Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 No proof so far, but it's possibile. As said before i was sold this movement as low beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 as I am Chinese, the only thing that I can think of the factories made it this way is to make more money, while give the impression that you are buying a high quality merchandise. it is not strange for the Chinese to recycle parts, if they can get away with it. sad to say it, but it is true. given how the society is brought up, generally poor, they are always there to make a buck. for example, when you go to a Chinese restaurant, and they serve you fruit, after your meal, just keep in mind, that it may have come from other customer's table, that they could not finish, and the restaurant would serve it to you any way. To them, it's the mentality of "why waste this, when the customer don't know about it any way!" we are fortunate to have Rob around, and give us his thoughts as he sees all kinds of movements in and out. because honestly, if I bought a this 3717 that was advertised as high beat, but opened it up and it looks like that, I would ask the dealer, and the dealer would probably just tell us, "hey, this is a new hybrid movement that we are producing." then what's a guy like me to do? I am no movement expert like the Zigman, and I would just probably say, "ok, my fault" and went on to my merry life. unless I can detect that slower 21.6k beat that is, then I would complain some more. it's too bad that the dealer or the factory can be doing this to us. Perhaps the dealer don't even know about it, but how are we going to find out who is doing the shady work? it would just be a daunting task to do. But, going back to the main point here, thank you Rob for giving us some clues to look for on these cloney clones...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hi, Ziggy, interesting and unfortunately not surprising post. Quick question on the 28.8k Asian to Swiss 7750 retrofits you've done... I was led to believe an issue with that was the subdial hands had holes slightly larger than the genuine 7750 posts. So assuming this is true, then to do the retrofit are you adding glue to make up for the extra space? Thanks! Two problems going from the new 28.8K to a ETA. Center seconds hand too small Sub dial hands too big For the center seconds I glue the tube to the hand, and then broach it to 0.25mm and install it, never a problem. For the subdial hands, I use a minute drop of epoxy in the hand tube, and install the hands and let the glue harden. I tested and re-tested to see if it would be an issue for follow on servicing etc, and it isn't. The glue fills the 0.03mm gap and allows the hand to fit nice and snug and you can remove and re-install it no problem. I am sure if you were sloppy and got glue everywhere, it could be a problem, but I am very careful and have been gluing the center seconds hands for a long time...I don't do anything that would cause problems for the owner down the road. Example of center seconds glued in place: In case your wondering, I have long piano player fingers...so the size of the tube is very small... Of course the movement being an older 7750 had a crappy cannon gear and I had to install a new one. Other than this, movement is assembled and working perfect, at 21,600 BPH. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankster Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) This movement is from an IWC 3717 if that helps... RG Ack - mine? Even if it's not, that just sucks. Edited January 5, 2008 by tankster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Ack - mine? Even if it's not, that just sucks. I was just going to send you an email...yes it's yours, but it's working fine, so no worries about it not running. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkitesurf Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I got an 3717 on the way from Joshua. I also plan on exchanging to the Swiss ETA if all possible. I would not mind a old Asian 7750 that way but I would not want to pay the high quality movement price for the old movement rep. Argh this is getting tricky. Thanks for updating us Rob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Is this exclusively in the HBB's? No. I have found this same movement in 2 secs at 6 Daytonas. Both were the '3rd version' of this model (which has the pointed 'A' DAYTONA font & thicker case that most current secs at 6 Daytona reps come with) that I mentioned in several previous posts. The overall construction quality & feel of these movements differs from the other 2 7750s (1 of these has the 'Daytona' signed/vented rotor & the other has a plain rotor) I have found in secs at 6 Daytonas. That is, I have seen 3 different 7750 movements in secs at 6 Daytonas, so be sure of what you are getting (and read Ziggy's 7750 reviews) before you click the Buy button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Two problems going from the new 28.8K to a ETA. Center seconds hand too small Sub dial hands too big For the center seconds I glue the tube to the hand, and then broach it to 0.25mm and install it, never a problem. For the subdial hands, I use a minute drop of epoxy in the hand tube, and install the hands and let the glue harden. I tested and re-tested to see if it would be an issue for follow on servicing etc, and it isn't. The glue fills the 0.03mm gap and allows the hand to fit nice and snug and you can remove and re-install it no problem. I am sure if you were sloppy and got glue everywhere, it could be a problem, but I am very careful and have been gluing the center seconds hands for a long time...I don't do anything that would cause problems for the owner down the road. Ah, OK. So the dab of epoxy does the job for the subdial hands.... Excellent!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryaku Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 The Zigmeister you must be very fast to reinstall every single hand if you can put glue on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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