scratching my head...

[kosemkamtsan]

Just noticed that the new Silberstein rep was made using a gen as the standard. It has a 7751 movt. and everything. What the hell is going on?? why put so much time and energy into a rep that maybe only 2% of the rep community cares about??? Get a gen luminor sandwich dial and get the fonts right for goodness sakes!!! Fix the lettering on the H series 6497 movement to be smaller and darker. Fix the "A" in Panerai. These watches sell by multiples of a thousand to what the Silberstein rep sells at!!! what is the problem? what am i missing?

[By-Tor]

I have often wondered this same thing.

I think it's great for the rep watch community that they replicate all kinds of watches. But from purely financial point of view, I think it's weird. Instead of improving the "hot sellers" like all those medicore (and even outright laughable) Rolex reps, they put out all kinds of obscure models. There must be more than meets the eye.

[kosemkamtsan]

conspiracy theories abound on this one. Anyone who knows anything about business would say there is either collusion going on here between real makers and rep makers, or there are very rich and whimsical people at the helm of the rep world. I find the latter hard to believe, especially in Asia.

[Victoria]

I find the latter hard to believe, especially in Asia.

A lot of people probably know this, but from what I have been told, it IS the latter.

[doc savage]

Weird. OK then, rep the Ulysse Nardin Freak, that would be fun.

Who wears those Silbersteins anyway? They remind me of the plastic jewlery my sisters wore in 4th grade.

[POTR]

... or there are very rich and whimsical people at the helm of the rep world. I find the latter hard to believe, especially in Asia.

You haven't seen too many Shaw Brother's/Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan/ "Kung Fu theatre" type movies, have you?

[Tim]

Weird. OK then, rep the Ulysse Nardin Freak, that would be fun.

Who wears those Silbersteins anyway? They remind me of the plastic jewlery my sisters wore in 4th grade.

Hey wait a second! I proudly wear Silbersteins!!! It is the most complimented watch I own. I can understand though how some people just don't get them. Silbersten, as you can tell from the name of this watch, mimics Bauhaus design elements. Specifically he almost plagiarizes Kandinsky's work (google Kandinsky's "On White II' or "Composition VIII" and you'll see what I mean). To me the Silbersteins represent a breath of fresh air in the watch making world.

The Swiss on their own are so boringly repetitive that it is mind numbing. They've figured out--finally--that better watch design principles actually sell watches, but in response they come up with monsters like Jean-Claude Biver and Thierry Nataf. My personal opinion is whoever finds Hublot Big Bang and Zenith Defy watches attractive in any design sense whatsoever, are style disasters on two legs. They ought to just be done with pimping themselves out and do it right; may I suggest wearing a Flavor Flav watch around their neck would get them closer to the style they are seeking....

I own and love a Rondo GMT and would hold that model up stylistically against anything in the watch world.

Now I will certainly agree with anyone else who thinks that they could have made a better selection for a Silberstein piece to rep. The Bauhaus is not my favorite. I am not a particular fan of the case design, specifically the thickness (reference the BB and Defy models above).

One other reason many like Silberstein is that it is one of the few remaining watches marked "Made in France". The same reason many like Panerai because they are made in Italy. Now you and I both know that the movements are all Swiss, and more specifically even those Swiss movements are mostly made in China these days. But at least we can trick ourselves a little easier when it has the words written down.

-T

[dachshund]

Kind of a catch 22, if we didn't buy them because of the flaws, they wouldn't make anymore because they don't sell, and if they make them with flaws and they sell there is not reason to improve, or at least not enough reason to justify the cost to improve.

Simply put, the makers don't have to spend the time and efford to make the rolies and pannies correct because we buy all they make with the known flaws included.

[HauteHippie]

Here's a question: why spend time and money to make (relatively) minor improvements on reps like PAMs which already sell like hotcakes? The current strategy makes perfect sense to me, and I don't buy the conspiracies.

[doc savage]

I get it. A squiggle, a triangle, some primary colors and it's modern art on your wrist.

[Tim]

I get it. A squiggle, a triangle, some primary colors and it's modern art on your wrist.

and apparently enough to keep you out of any MOMA! So is the only reason we wear watches simply to tell the time? If so, why spend more than $5 for a Timex because it would be as good as any.

We wear the more expensive watches precisely for the style. And there is good taste in style and there is bad taste....

Men just don't like admitting that they are wearing jewelry in an effort to be fashionable.

Me, I drive a sports coupe and wear stylish watches because they ultimately say something about me.

(And no, wise ass--my tool size is more than adequate!)

-T

[doc savage]

I do have an art background, and when I was partner in a small gallery modern art was the reason I went to work everyday. I still don't like Silbersteins; mainly because they look like a caricature of a "modern art watch". It just always struck me as something Dieter would wear on Sprockets.

Still, as you say it is a matter of taste, and I do admit that a fancy watch collection is, in part, my attempt to be fashionable. I would like to think that an Ice Bang would suit me and my personal style, maybe a Rondo GMT suits you just as well.

Oh, and I got your art watch right here:

[Tim]

I do have an art background, and when I was partner in a small gallery modern art was the reason I went to work everyday. I still don't like Silbersteins; mainly because they look like a caricature of a "modern art watch". It just always struck me as something Dieter would wear on Sprockets.

Still, as you say it is a matter of taste, and I do admit that a fancy watch collection is, in part, my attempt to be fashionable. I would like to think that an Ice Bang would suit me and my personal style, maybe a Rondo GMT suits you just as well.

Oh, and I got your art watch right here:

Well at least you didn't post a picture of a Watch fait Erotica. There might be hope for you!

/Tim

[Corgi]

I respect the A. Silberstein brand... I think the watch design is clever and would look very good on the wrist of a little boy; with all of those cute smiley faces and vibrant colors I'm sure he and his elementary school teacher would get a kick out of it!

HOWEVER, I feel it is outrageous that the factories cannot squeeze the pennies together to fix the godforsaken disaster that is the converted seconds at six daytona movement but can, on the other hand, invest thousands into replicating so accurately a watch that can only be described as "extremely unpopular". It's absolutely illogical.

[kosemkamtsan]

The point of my original post is not that Silberstien makes ugly watches. On the contrary. I happen to get a huge kick out of them and love bauhaus design. I am simply befuddled by the fact that so much would be invested in such a losing proposition from a business standpoint. Yes we buy Rollies and Pams up the wahoo, but could you imagine how much more we would buy if they were all extremely accurate? I'd rob a liquor store to get my hands on 5 to 10 Pannies just off the top of my head, not to mention Lange, Glashutte, and many others that are way more popular than Silberstien. It seems to be a questionable business decision is all i'm saying.

[kosemkamtsan]

After reviewing Daschund's comments, i revise my own. I think it is a fair point that we can only continue to buy these watches if there remains room to improve upon them with each new edition. the dangling golden carrot.

[Guest Carl]

I respect the A. Silberstein brand... I think the watch design is clever and would look very good on the wrist of a little boy; with all of those cute smiley faces and vibrant colors I'm sure he and his elementary school teacher would get a kick out of it!

HOWEVER, I feel it is outrageous that the factories cannot squeeze the pennies together to fix the godforsaken disaster that is the converted seconds at six daytona movement but can, on the other hand, invest thousands into replicating so accurately a watch that can only be described as "extremely unpopular". It's absolutely illogical.

There is an actual domestic market for these watches in China.

Carl

[Pugwash]

HOWEVER, I feel it is outrageous that the factories cannot squeeze the pennies together to fix the godforsaken disaster that is the converted seconds at six daytona movement but can, on the other hand, invest thousands into replicating so accurately a watch that can only be described as "extremely unpopular". It's absolutely illogical.

Outrageous? Steady on there, chap!

We, the western forum gwailos, are a tiny, insignificant part of the global replica market. While we may be the best advert for the higher-end replicas, there are a kazillion sold we never see hide nor hair of.

[tech]

Hey wait a second! I proudly wear Silbersteins!!! It is the most complimented watch I own. I can understand though how some people just don't get them. Silbersten, as you can tell from the name of this watch, mimics Bauhaus design elements. Specifically he almost plagiarizes Kandinsky's work (google Kandinsky's "On White II' or "Composition VIII" and you'll see what I mean). To me the Silbersteins represent a breath of fresh air in the watch making world.

I own and love a Rondo GMT and would hold that model up stylistically against anything in the watch world.

-T

I love the Silbersteins as well....and I would proudly wear one....just gotta get in line as the WTB list continues to grow every day I am in this hobby...

cheers

[Tim]

The point of my original post is not that Silberstien makes ugly watches. On the contrary. I happen to get a huge kick out of them and love bauhaus design. I am simply befuddled by the fact that so much would be invested in such a losing proposition from a business standpoint. Yes we buy Rollies and Pams up the wahoo, but could you imagine how much more we would buy if they were all extremely accurate? I'd rob a liquor store to get my hands on 5 to 10 Pannies just off the top of my head, not to mention Lange, Glashutte, and many others that are way more popular than Silberstien. It seems to be a questionable business decision is all i'm saying.

I think there might be a number of things going on with the situation.

First, for the most part, I don't think it pays to be explicitly accurate about all that many watches. While you may jump at the chance to buy one, think of the economics of the situation. Making a rep devalues the genuine product. The closer the rep the more the devaluation. As a brand/model becomes more devalued it becomes less desirable. Strike one.

Strike two, the whole rep process seems to have many quite fully hooked. If they came out with the perfect Planet O right out of the gate, you'd buy one. But you'd only buy the one. Very few people out there buy more than one of any given genuine watch model. As it is, you have Gen 1, Gen 2, Gen 3, MBW, 1:1, 1:1 with mods, and on and on. At one point I had three different generations of the same PO model. Until I recognized the absurdity of the situation that is.

Strike three is what I term the General Chang principle; "[censored] us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not revenge?" (Anyone get the joke? Perhaps the humor is wasted....) Get too good a rep going and you'll get some CEO on the warpath. Witness the howling of JC Bi-valve over the Big Bang reps out there. China being what it is, I would imagine that it wouldn't pay to be the nail sticking out via your outstanding counterfeiting skills, else you are liable to get pounded.

[sidenote: I re-read the message after posting and noted that the software "censored" the word "p r i c k" in the sentance above. I suppose

Shakespeare is lost on a computer....]

A final issue is that I think everything in the watch world--genuine or reps--is done in multiples of 500. 500 seems to be the magical number for short production runs. Once you decide to order 500 of something or another, it doesn't really matter what object is being produced. The Chinese are very resourceful. Does anyone imagine that they are not using advanced CAD/CAM processes for these short production runs? I would think it would be easier actually to make the watch using a genuine product as the master. A little 3D scanning and a few computer cycles and voila, here is your perfectly reproduced watch part. At that point it just becomes a question of how much time someone is interested in investing in the process (reference the above points as well). While you may be interested in buying a rep of a very popular watch that has some noteworthy flaws, a not so very popular watch would have to be more exact in order to sell. With all the rollies out there, how likely is anyone to notice that the magnification factor of the cyclops is off? If you appreciate a Silberstein, how likely are you to notice that the color or shape is wrong on a part?

-T

[Tim]

I respect the A. Silberstein brand... I think the watch design is clever and would look very good on the wrist of a little boy; with all of those cute smiley faces and vibrant colors I'm sure he and his elementary school teacher would get a kick out of it!

Whimsy. It is called a whimsical attribute. You, obviously, are not very whimsical. Your loss.

Now remember though, you probably are wearing a Seamaster with a monster on the back. But I suppose you never see that monster so it doesn't count. (And you probably never use smiley faces either.)

-T

[narikaa]

Pugs nailed it

Why do y'all think all those ohhh ahhh fantasy Rollies, Pannies with ohhh so terrible flaws etc etc etc are produced (by the metric tonne).

Is it so that opinionated WIS can pontificate and find fault????

Or the old chestnut...Its so they can keep making better and better ones thereby multiplying their sales...duh!

No, the answer is inscrutably simple............

Its because they can S E L L T H E M

You see there's a whole world full of wide eyed punters out there that neither understand (or give a rat's ass) about the minutiae that's fretted about on these fora.

[Guest TTK]

Whilst Silberstein was l'enfant terrible of the watch world in the 90's.....I feel that he and they are now past their sell by date......just as the 'modern' art of Kandinsky.... Miro....Sonia Delauney and the rest of the Deco / Bauhaus movement are past theirs...the whole 'art' theme was over-exploited by Swatch.... .there are many other watchpieces available nowadays that allow you to express yourself without indulging in garish colour schemes.....personally I'm more driven towards Neo-classicism and the Egyptian revivalist movement of the Regency period.....which probably explains why I find George Daniels / Breguet / Patek / Vacheron more pleasing...even the work of modern manufacture such as Christian van der Klaauw......or Martin Braun....express succinctly the purity of design and execution of quality that's far more appealing.....conservative ....yes....but ultimately the marriage of gold .....guilloche ...enamelling....Clous de Paris and the art of silver or goldsmithing allied to superb engineering that will always outclass any explosion in a paint factory......!

For me ......Caravaggio..Albrecht Durer.......Breugel....Rembrandt...JL David.....or Gericault.....will never ever be approached....by the likes of Kandinsky.....!

It reminds of the collection of art critics in the NY MOMA......commenting on a piece of 'modern' art......"you can feel the inner anguish of the artist.....the need to express his inner turmoil...evidenced by the broad brush strokes......and use of bright bold colours".......a little girl steps up and says....'that painting is upside down..".......needless to say....Kandinsky is no more art than the pile of dust or bricks sitting in any museum.....JMHO....but I'm right... ..

Edited January 11, 2008 by TTK

[Tim]

Whilst Silberstein was l'enfant terrible of the watch world in the 90's.....I feel that he and they are now past their sell by date......just as the 'modern' art of Kandinsky.... Miro....Sonia Delauney and the rest of the Deco / Bauhaus movement are past theirs...the whole 'art' theme was over-exploited by Swatch.... .there are many other watchpieces available nowadays that allow you to express yourself without indulging in garish colour schemes.....personally I'm more driven towards Neo-classicism and the Egyptian revivalist movement of the Regency period.....which probably explains why I find George Daniels / Breguet / Patek / Vacheron more pleasing...even the work of modern manufacture such as Christian van der Klaauw......or Martin Braun....express succinctly the purity of design and execution of quality that's far more appealing.....conservative ....yes....but ultimately the marriage of gold .....guilloche ...enamelling....Clous de Paris and the art of silver or goldsmithing allied to superb engineering that will always outclass any explosion in a paint factory......!

For me ......Caravaggio..Albrecht Durer.......Breugel....Rembrandt...JL David.....or Gericault.....will never ever be approached....by the likes of Kandinsky.....!

It reminds of the collection of art critics in the NY MOMA......commenting on a piece of 'modern' art......"you can feel the inner anguish of the artist.....the need to express his inner turmoil...evidenced by the broad brush strokes......and use of bright bold colours".......a little girl steps up and says....'that painting is upside down..".......needless to say....Kandinsky is no more art than the pile of dust or bricks sitting in any museum.....JMHO....but I'm right... ..

But of course, TTK is always right!

Bauhaus is not the be all and end all of any art movement and I don't think that was implied by anything I wrote. I simply appreciate what it is and where it came from. I own pieces from the brands you mention and others I would add to the list. The majority of my collection consists of asymmetrical watches so I guess I have a fondness for the unusual.

You know, I didn't really want to own one until I went to the Bauhaus museum in Berlin. As I understood the style better I appreciated it more and then wanted to buy one of the Silbersteins. I almost bought a little quartz job at the museum but it was vastly overpriced, made in Japan, and the attendant was a grumpy former East German so I passed.

I will state as a fact though that the Silberstein gets more notice and compliments than any of my other watches. And it isn't people that say "Oh, look at the pretty colors!" They know it is a Bauhaus design and think it is cool.

...maybe it is just the crowds I hang around in, who knows.

What kind of crowds do you hang around in!

-T

[kosemkamtsan]

I'm so glad this post has generated such lively exchanges. Tim, well done sir! Regarding whimsy and watches, somthing about combining the two seems paradoxical, no? Granted, if time was all that mattered, i'd get an atomic watch. However, color explosion as the backdrop to my slave-driving hour and minute hands seems almost comical. Time is austere in its nature. If you were the manifestation of time, what backdrop would you feel best represents your purpose in the universe? All references to time being man-made need not remark.