mezzanine Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I know a few of us have been on the hunt for genuine rolex bracelets for our vintage projects. Today, I think I came up with my answer, but I wanted to ask some questions about whether I should do some further work to try to get the bracelet closer to perfection. I managed to pick this up for $375 shipped- a 78360 with 580 end links. I think the big question is whether it's worth it to spring for a 91350 flip lock clasp. I'm not sure whether it's worth it, but if there were a cheap gen option, I would probably go for it...the thing is, I'm not motivated to spend over $100 on a clasp when this is gen and functional. I don't think it's standard for the sub, but I don't think it's a horribly inconsistent choice either. Any thoughts are appreciated- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Well, While I wouldn't say it is a bad option, I think patience and a watchful eye may net you a Gen clasp. I picked one up in very good shape for $250 and I recently picked up a complete 93150 580 endlinks from a 1680 for $200.00. It was pretty beat up and needed some pins in the clasp, but it works now:-) Shamless pic of my Dream watch now complete next to my soon to be gone 1680 Red..... Beautiful Profile too.... BTW, VRF (Vintage rolex Forum) has a set of 580 endlinks O.k. condition for $250.00...... I say wear it as is and enjoy the unmistakable feel of a Gen Oyster bracelet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 BTW, VRF has a set of 580 endlinks O.k. condition for $250.00...... VRF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 VRF? Vintage Rolex Forum..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 The 580 end pieces are perfect for the 1680. The correct bracelet would be the 93150. Early 1680's had the 9315 bracelet w/ the 280 or 380 end pieces. The 78360 is correct for the Explorers (1016, 14270, 1655, 16550, 16570), GMT (1675, 16750), and Milgauss Try this link: http://www.14270.com/spec-rolex.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Well, to put on a rep mi While I wouldn't say it is a bad option, I think patience and a watchful eye may net you a Gen clasp. I [icked one up in very good shape for $250 and I recently picked up a complete 93150 580 endlinks from a 1680 for $200.00. It was pretty beat up and needed some pins in the clasp, but it works now:-) BTW, VRF has a set of 580 endlinks O.k. condition for $250.00...... I say wear it as is and enjoy the unmistakable feel of a Gen Oyster bracelet. I may know who is selling the genuine 580's on VRF.... Honestly, as I was saying to Marty last night via PM, I don't know how much they're worth. I've seen the vintage ones going for absurd amounts recently, so I don't know what to think. I wasn't expecting on picking up this bracelet, but this popped up and I figured it looked like it was in pretty good condition. This is from the early '80's and would probably have been used on a GMT or Explorer. As a result, I'm in a situation where I've got to figure out what I'm going to do with my bracelets. I've got a pair of gen 501's on my 1680 currently and they are fitted to a rep rivet bracelet that's of good quality. I think the MBW cases are based on the 5513 case, so I'm not sure if the gen 580's will fit. Before people say "well MBW's can accept gen parts", I haven't personally seen a lot of 1680's here with 580 endlinks...it's usually 501's, and I seem to remember a few people mentioning the 580's didn't fit right and having to resort to other options. What I'm thinking is that I keep the 501's and use the 78360 bracelet. Then I could move the 580's that are currently on the 78360 to my SD which has rep endlinks still. The SD has a nice rep 91350 bracelet with a good clasp, but I need another link because it's still a little tight. I'm hoping I'll have an extra link that I can swap over from the 78360 if it's got some extra room left...polished sides be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I picked one up in very good shape for $250 and I recently picked up a complete 93150 580 endlinks from a 1680 for $200.00. BTW, VRF (Vintage rolex Forum) has a set of 580 endlinks O.k. condition for $250.00...... 2 questions VRF - Do you mean the Sales Corner on Timezone (they do not sell anything in the Vintage Rolex Forum)? Your caseback - Which watch is this & from which collector? I will bet that FLAT caseback will fit a certain group of 1165xx Daytona reps that currently have the wrong (beveled) caseback.. And if the polish is brushed, we may have a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Vintage Rolex Forum..... shhhhhh..... Don't spoil one of my last havens to a newb like Freddy! j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 The 580 end pieces are perfect for the 1680. The correct bracelet would be the 93150. Early 1680's had the 9315 bracelet w/ the 280 or 380 end pieces. The 78360 is correct for the Explorers (1016, 14270, 1655, 16550, 16570), GMT (1675, 16750), and Milgauss Try this link: http://www.14270.com/spec-rolex.htm You're 100% right- The only reason I decided to go with this, was because I'd noted that Ubi had gone with a franken 1680 bracelet that used a 78360 and I've had a devil of a time finding a reasonably priced 91350/580. I don't mind the wrong option in this case, only because as far as I've been able to learn, the only difference is the polished vs. brushed sides. I think I'll actually like the brushed sides. I don't think the 78360 is any thinner or different in actual size, but someone may know different...? Justasgood, you scored on that bracelet you were able to recondition. Nice job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 2 questions VRF - Do you mean the Sales Corner on Timezone (they do not sell anything in the Vintage Rolex Forum)? Your caseback - Which watch is this & from which collector? I will bet that FLAT caseback will fit a certain group of 1165xx Daytona reps that currently have the wrong (beveled) caseback.. And if the polish is brushed, we may have a winner. VRF already outed see my edited post..... My caseback is not flat....it's just the angle and polished surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 You're 100% right- The only reason I decided to go with this, was because I'd noted that Ubi had gone with a franken 1680 bracelet that used a 78360 and I've had a devil of a time finding a reasonably priced 91350/580. I don't mind the wrong option in this case, only because as far as I've been able to learn, the only difference is the polished vs. brushed sides. I think I'll actually like the brushed sides. I don't think the 78360 is any thinner or different in actual size, but someone may know different...? Justasgood, you scored on that bracelet you were able to recondition. Nice job. As you can see in my pictures, I have a set of Gen 580's on my 5513 and a set of gen 501B's (from my now gone 14060M) on my MBW 1680. Fit is not an issue for either. Thanks for the Kudos on the bracelet. It ain't pretty, but they way I wear my watches ain't gonna help it if it were :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carlsbadrolex Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I managed to pick this up for $375 shipped- a 78360 with 580 end links. Thats a pretty damn good deal. The bracelet I picked up last week was CONSIDERABLY more money. So, when you decide that this bracelet and end links isnt going to work for your project, LET ME KNOW... I will give you a profit on your investment! I personally would use that bracelet as is. I have seen alot of gen vintage rolex watches in my life, and if one thing is certain THEY ALL had parts from other watches. I dont know that I have ever seen one that could claim to be complete as shipped from Rolex. As people wore out there bracelet, they bought a replacement. It may not have had the same number on the end links, but it fit and that is what is important for a tool.. Its only US collectors that care that the watch be 100% accurate as to what was shipped from the factory. You got a great deal, and I truly see no reason to invest further into a bracelet that very easily fits the bill. Congrats on a great find, and my offer above still stands. PS: you could also just sell me the other 580's you have!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thats a pretty damn good deal. The bracelet I picked up last week was CONSIDERABLY more money. So, when you decide that this bracelet and end links isnt going to work for your project, LET ME KNOW... I will give you a profit on your investment! Sell sell sell............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thats a pretty damn good deal. The bracelet I picked up last week was CONSIDERABLY more money. So, when you decide that this bracelet and end links isnt going to work for your project, LET ME KNOW... I will give you a profit on your investment! Thanks man, I thought of you when I mentioned that there have been a few of us that have been hoping to find a reasonably priced bracelet option for our MBW projects. You can bet that if I let this go, I'll let you know first and you can have it at my cost. I'm hoping that won't be the case, though! At least for the next little while.. I have been keeping an eye out, but at the same time have been thinking I probably would rather have a new rep instead, and even then I haven't seen them going for less than $600 complete and in good condition...which is simply more than I was willing to pay for a bracelet. In fact, I would've stopped even looking, except my fully modded 1680 has quite literally become my daily beater. There are some truly valuable lessons in the diffence between preconceptions about one's probable tastes, and the empirical process of experimenting with watches, so that your experience is the measure of how you should direct your resources. What I can't get over is how empircal the process of owning reps has been. I would never have guessed that a single watch would have that kind of pull. I think now that the euphoria of discovering reps has faded, I'm okay with only having three or four really exceptional pieces. That being said, this bracelet better be some real hot [censored]. I better be astounded at the difference between the gen and rep! Not necessarily, but I'm not about buying expensive gen parts for the sake of it, if it isn't really a big need in terms of the look of the watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasgood Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thanks man, I thought of you when I mentioned that there have been a few of us that have been hoping to find a reasonably priced bracelet option for our MBW projects. You can bet that if I let this go, I'll let you know first and you can have it at my cost. I'm hoping that won't be the case, though! At least for the next little while.. I have been keeping an eye out, but at the same time have been thinking I probably would rather have a new rep instead, and even then I haven't seen them going for less than $600 complete and in good condition...which is simply more than I was willing to pay for a bracelet. In fact, I would've stopped even looking, except my fully modded 1680 has quite literally become my daily beater. There are some truly valuable lessons in the diffence between preconceptions about one's probable tastes, and the empirical process of experimenting with watches, so that your experience is the measure of how you should direct your resources. What I can't get over is how empircal the process of owning reps has been. I would never have guessed that a single watch would have that kind of pull. I think now that the euphoria of discovering reps has faded, I'm okay with only having three or four really exceptional pieces. That being said, this bracelet better be some real hot [censored]. I better be astounded at the difference between the gen and rep! Not necessarily, but I'm not about buying expensive gen parts for the sake of it, if it isn't really a big need in terms of the look of the watch. Great points and very deep.....now my head hurts:-) My personal opinion is thihs If you are going to build the best use the best. However, money talks and quite honestly, if I wasn't hell bent on building an "as close to Gen" watch as possible, I would be perfectly happy with the MBW bracelet......of course, lucking out and getting a smoking deal on a gen bracelet changes things......a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cib0rgman Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I managed to pick a 93150 with 580 end links from ebay last year I believe i paid $450.00, also got a 1575 movement for $850.00. Is juts a matter of time and luck Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Mez- That's exactly what I have on my 1665; gen 78360, well used but in good shape with 580's and a gen 93150 clasp. While not model correct, I myself don't mind the mismatch as I have it simply to wear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 The more that I've looked, the more I've realized that there are deals out there to be had, but you have to patient. At the same time, I've got to say that even within the last 12 months, it seems to me that the Rolex parts market has become even more expensive. Prices on bracelets, like the $450 that cib0rgman paid for his bracelet, were relatively common a year or two ago. Maybe I'm being cynical and impatient, but I'm not seeing the types of deals out there that some believe there is. I think that it effects certain parts more than others. For example, gen inserts are damn hard to find, and if you can find one for under $120, then I'd be really careful to be sure that it's the real thing. Personally, I don't understand the market for endlinks. I saw a set of new 580's sell for $600 recently. How does that make any sense whatsoever? I've seen vintage ones go for more than new ones, so my whole sense of their pricing and value is skewed... I came really close to buying a folded 9135 with 580's...I love those folded bracelets, but have heard that they're a little flimsy (more than typical for Rolex). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 If you think 580's are expensive, try pricing a pair of 585's! Yikes! C'mon folks... They're just corved little bits of steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Mez- That's exactly what I have on my 1665; gen 78360, well used but in good shape with 580's and a gen 93150 clasp. While not model correct, I myself don't mind the mismatch as I have it simply to wear Ubi, your bracelet was the inspiration for my purchase- I thought that it was a little risky going for a bracelet that isn't standard for the subs, but the premium for the 91350 is too much for me as a rep collector. This is a good alternative, and other than the clasp, is pretty much the same thing. I'd be interested in getting a flip-lock clasp for the bracelet, but I'm not going to sweat it too much. It would be nice, but damn if I'm going to spend more than $50 US for one....which puts me out of contention. That's what I find myself doing with my part selection process- I'm less attuned to the market, and more in tune to what I'm willing to pay for a particular part. In some cases there just isn't any correspondence between my perception of acceptable value, and the corresponding prices in the used gen market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Well... The parts market for vintage Rolex is in my opinion a completely autonomous monster from even sales of complete vintage watches, per se. You have folks out there trying to collect parts that simply aren't in production any longer, and people are willing to fork out some outrageous money to build their stash of spares since RSC's are either replacing parts with new, non-period correct service parts, or simply not servicing certain watches at all. So, to fuel that demand, there are individuals out there who are feeding that market by supplying stock that was bought out from, say a retiring watch maker (who held a parts account), or buying some of the un-desireable no B&P/documents pieces and parting them out. It's a crazy dynamic, but folks are making a killing in parts. Makes me think I got into the wrong biz.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 If you think 580's are expensive, try pricing a pair of 585's! Yikes! C'mon folks... They're just corved little bits of steel. I couldn't believe it. I'm tempted to link some ads to the forum, but I know that's not a good idea...suffice to say, some of the prices are truly shocking. I don't even know how one could possibly verify some of the stuff that commands huge premiums. The bracelet that I just picked up would probably fetch an average of $700 US in the used market. They're $1200 new through private sellers. You know the 585's you just mentioned? I did a quick search, and the only pair I could find, the seller is asking $600. Six hundred. The 580's are a steal at $450. I don't think he sold them, but even to see the prices posted is insanity. Any idea how much a gen flip-lock clasp would be on the used market nowadays? I'll do some hunting, but I guess that's next on the "to investigate further" list.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Well... The parts market for vintage Rolex is in my opinion a completely autonomous monster from even sales of complete vintage watches, per se. You have folks out there trying to collect parts that simply aren't in production any longer, and people are willing to fork out some outrageous money to build their stash of spares since RSC's are either replacing parts with new, non-period correct service parts, or simply not servicing certain watches at all. So, to fuel that demand, there are individuals out there who are feeding that market by supplying stock that was bought out from, say a retiring watch maker (who held a parts account), or buying some of the un-desireable no B&P/documents pieces and parting them out. It's a crazy dynamic, but folks are making a killing in parts. Makes me think I got into the wrong biz.... This brings up an interesting point that I've observed in the used Rolex market- there are often big discrepencies between the cost of individual parts, and the relative cost of those parts on complete watches. It's the concept of arbitrage. If the same thing is worth more in one market than another, there's an opportunity for some people to profit if they can identify the direction of that difference. In this case, the parts market is crazy, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone could do very well parting out particular watches, if they were functioning along a different price model. I can think of a few examples off the top of my head where this is true... This also comes into play when modded rep owners are considering selling their watches. A lot of more casual potential buyers don't really understand that the parts are relatively stable in price, and that beyond a certain point it would be easier to just start taking the watch apart. I almost decided to do that with a pam I recently sold. The strap and crown were worth 2/3 of my asking price on the parts market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Very true. What hapens in the parts market may not reflect equally in the market for complete watches. They're quite distinct. Yet the popularity of a complete watch will ultimately fuel the demand of certain parts. This puts an interesting spin on folks like us who like to mod reps with gen parts; the more I think about it, it's almost akin to slapping diamonds onto a gold plated turd. Well, maybe that's not the right analogy, but you get the idea of what I'm trying to express Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I know that as someone who was on the hunt for parts for a while, it would be kinda annoying to see some reasonably priced GMT parts, etc... but if you want something for your vintage sub or seadweller, then get ready to pump up the premium for the popularity of those models. That's where I think the idea of the 78360 is an acceptable one from our vantage point.. I agree with you about some of the questionable aspects of spending so much on a rep, but at the same time, when I look at my modest collection, I can't help but wonder what type of re-sale value they'll have a couple of years from now. On the other hand, with the modded MBW's I've got, if the whole rep community was to go belly-up (god forbid!) tomorrow, I could sell most of the actual value of those watches in the used parts market at my leisure. Not only that, but the chances are with the market being the way it is, the value of these parts are going to go up, rather than down. It's for those reasons that I think that the MBW's with the ability to accept gen parts are the coolest thing in the rep world, because you can sort of participate in that in a more pure sense, if only because the premium for the serial # and movement are sacrificed in the interest of being able to actually afford the parts that make up the aesthetically significant elements of the watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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