DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 From what I have read and understood, Jesus was not born on Dec 25th. Why is this day celebrated as his birthday throughout the world? I'm still trying to research the reasons behind it, but I'm hoping someone here can help me on this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 It was the midwinter festival. The whole Christianity conversion thing used old festivals to try to get pagans to become Christians, and the best way to get them celebrating was to steal midwinter as the founder's birth. An awful lot was stolen from Sun worship, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Yes I read something about this Sun worshipping and it was to appeal to pagans to become Christians. Why doesn't the Church now celebrate his original birth date instead? (if they know it that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 From what I have read and understood, Jesus was not born on Dec 25th. Why is this day celebrated as his birthday throughout the world? I'm still trying to research the reasons behind it, but I'm hoping someone here can help me on this question. A lot of people will tell you that it piggy-backed on a pagan festival, already in place. In the "mockumentary" Zeitgeist, his birthday is one of the underlying points to undermine Christianity. It suggested that Jesus didn't exist, and he was merely the continuation of the Egyptian God, Horus. Zeitgeist says that's because both were born on 25th December. Needless-to-say, there is nothing in Scriptures which specifically says the month and day Jesus was born. I need not tell you that no where is it written when Horus was born, so it is a logical fallacy to connote the two. To answer your question, here is an interesting timeline I found of when he could've been born: http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm September-October? Eww. Santa will look a right pillock wearing a cardigan. @Demon: "Why doesn't the Church now celebrate his original birth date instead? (if they know it that is)" Because no one knows for certain when it was. Just like we cannot know for certain if 72 black-eyed virgins will be awaiting certain men in Heaven, if they be Martyrs. Religion is about faith, and tradition, not about certainty and denigration. Having said that, I'm glad the Holy Roman Catholic Church, of which I am an adept, kicked St. Christopher off their saint rolls. He got on my nerves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks for the link Victoria. Do you personally know any Christians who do celebrate the approx date when Jesus is thought to have been born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks for the link Victoria. Do you personally know any Christians who do celebrate the approx date when Jesus is thought to have been born? No, I do not. It's pretty much accepted that 25th December was his birthday. Because the calender was changed many times, it is also thought the year of his birth is closer to 3 BC, but who knows. We're going by Claudius, the Roman Emperor and Historian, who wrote that. Recently, I read of Christians or more specifically, a proto-Christian sect in Iraq, who venerate John the Baptist, not Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Now that's interesting. There are Jews and Catholics in Iraq (Tariq Aziz was RC), of course, but that I didn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks for the link Victoria. Do you personally know any Christians who do celebrate the approx date when Jesus is thought to have been born? No-one knows when he was born. It's all just guesswork, to be honest. They don't even know the year! That and the fact no-one notices Jesus's wedding in the bible makes for a lot of confusion amongst fundamentalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 You want it more interesting? Read the History of the Mormons!!! It will blow you away.....not that there's anything wrong with it Some guys might actually join the "other" Mormon Sect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 No-one knows when he was born. It's all just guesswork, to be honest. They don't even know the year! That and the fact no-one notices Jesus's wedding in the bible makes for a lot of confusion amongst fundamentalists. Jesus was married?? To whom was he married to? I haven't yet researched to confirm this, but I understand that only certain parts of Jesus's life are depicted in the scripture. From the moment he was born, to when he was an adult. His younger years and teenage years are not mentioned. Is this somewhat true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc savage Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 South Park summed that up pretty nicely. The date Christmas is celebrated was actually moved by the Roman Catholic church from January to December to compete/coincide with the aforementioned pagan holiday, which is why some orthodox churches (Greek, Armenian) still observe Christmas in January. The original date in January was a sort of "best guess". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Here's another good link.... http://www.aristotle.net/~bhuie/birthday.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Is this somewhat true? It isn't only somewhat true, that is the case precisely. Jesus' so-called "Lost Years" which no one knows where he went, or what he did, range from the age of 12 to 30. @Doc: "The date Christmas is celebrated was actually moved by the Roman Catholic church from January to December to compete/coincide with the aforementioned pagan holiday, which is why some orthodox churches (Greek, Armenian) still observe Christmas in January. " Did Matt Stone and Trey Parker really say that? That's wrong, and I'm surprised since I love them. They celebrate later because the Orthodox Christian churches are on Julian calendar time, not on the revised Gregorian calendar which we use, in the modern-day. They are 14 days behind us, presently. In Russian History as well as Greek History, you will see annotations of (OS) which means Old Style. The last Queen of Yugoslavia was called "The Child of Two Centuries" because she was born in December 1899 in one, and January 1900 in the other. She was born Romanian Orthodox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 If Jesus weren't married at the age of 30, he would never have been trusted. For a Rabbi not to have been married at his age would have been exceedingly unusual, if not impossible. As for his wedding, it's at Cana and he married Mary Magdalene. The duties he performed were those of a groom. This is fairly well-known stuff if you read the stuff removed at the first council of Nicaea, like the Dead Sea scrolls and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 So basically this information is kept low-key? Well in my case it is, I always thought Jesus was a celibate. I mean I've read about the Da Vinci Code and watched the movie, but I didn't know there was actual fact to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 So basically this information is kept low-key? Well in my case it is, I always thought Jesus was a celibate. I mean I've read about the Da Vinci Code and watched the movie, but I didn't know there was actual fact to back it up. Oh God...Demon, ask Pugwash to provide the source. The exact source and then read up on the history. Mentioning the Da Vinci Code in this context is well, more than a little forced. Next, the Priory of Sion will be mentioned, and there we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 So basically this information is kept low-key? Well in my case it is, I always thought Jesus was a celibate. I mean I've read about the Da Vinci Code and watched the movie, but I didn't know there was actual fact to back it up. Fact? No, just the same level of evidence as anything else in the Bible. The difference between the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament is what the Roman Emperor Constantine chose to keep and discard. Before the First Council of Nicaea, 325AD, there was all sorts of stuff in the bible that was edited out (under the guidance of God, allegedly ...) to make it more palatable for the Church as was. Mostly, they decided on whether Jesus was God or whether he was merely a perfect creation, but in debating this, they deliberately forgot to tell one whole sector of the Church that they'd decided to meet earlier than previously agreed. They met, closed the doors and left the Arians outside, unable to present their point of view. They also moved Easter[1] to a new date, as previously it was the Jewish Passover. This council also introduced a whole pile of laws, designed to stop priests from having fun, essentially. Oh, and they excommunicated the people they locked out. Nice. [1] Easter: Um, yeah, this one will make your head spin. Eostre is a pagan goddess that represented the Spring Equinox. The rabbits represent having lots of sex. Yes, it's an age old fertility ritual to celebrate the coming of spring. Not a lot to do with Jesus, but they tagged his resurrection on a f*ckfest in an effort to clean things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Mentioning the Da Vinci Code in this context is well, more than a little forced. Next, the Priory of Sion will be mentioned, and there we go. Yeah, apart from the fact I knew the guy who made the whole thing up. No, really ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Fact? I'm not there yet. I would like to have the exact reference for you to say that though. Everything I have said, including that bit of fluff on Queen Marie, can be backed up with noted historical sources. I'd just like to read the passage which allows you to state your claim with such validity. And then I'd like to read why it was excised. In short, give me history, or give me Cheetos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Yes I also read about Easter. The goddess Eostre was a german pagan sex goddess and so represents fertility. Why would the resurrection of Jesus have anything to do with this festival? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 In short, give me history, or give me Cheetos. Gnostic Gospels, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. The Bible isn't history and you know it, all I can do is give you contemporary documentation with the same validity as the Bible. Will that do? New Testament apocrypha, basically. Non-canonical works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Yes I also read about Easter. The goddess Eostre was a german pagan sex goddess and so represents fertility. Why would the resurrection of Jesus have anything to do with this festival? Resurrection is a nicer way to look at rebirth than all that bonking. One theory is that it's designed to take the creation power away from Women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 The last Queen of Yugoslavia was called "The Child of Two Centuries" because she was born in December 1899 in one, and January 1900 in the other. She was born Romanian Orthodox. Hey, 1899 and 1900 are the same century! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Hey, 1899 and 1900 are the same century! You have no sense of showmanship! I bet she wowed the Dalmatians for years with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted February 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 I found a video presentation on Youtube by a man called Dr. Khalid Muhammad who I believe was a part of the Nation of Islam. I believe the presentation took place in a University in California in the early 90's or late 80's. In this clip, he talks a little bit about the significance of the lights people put around their homes and christmas trees at Christmas time: In this one he talks briefly about the origins of Easter: He doesn't quote exactly his references but I think its enough to carry out research on. He also claims that in the bible in the 10th chapter of Jeremiah, it says that the 'heathens practiced empty and vain practices like cutting down the evergreen trees and decking it with gold and silver' - a reference to the Christmas tree perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Resurrection is a nicer way to look at rebirth than all that bonking. Speaking of bonking, and all that good stuff, the Hindus have several Universe creation stories, but the prevalent one goes like this: "Before time began there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of night. A giant cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so peaceful and silent that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams or motion. Vishnu From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, Om. It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy. The night had ended. Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. He awaited the Lord's command. Vishnu spoke to his servant: 'It is time to begin.' Brahma bowed. Vishnu commanded: 'Create the world.' Brahma, God of Creation A wind swept up the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished. Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. With the third part of the flower he created the skies. The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move. The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sounds of Brahma's creation." I had read a saltier version once. Vishnu ejaculated and thus were born the oceans, etc. But snakes and lotus flowers are pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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