Why is Jesus's birth celebrated on Dec 25th?

[TeeJay]

Sir - I will be direct. You are intolerant and disrespectful of people whose religious beliefs are different than yours.

I will be equally direct. I am neither intolerant nore disrespectful of people whose religious beliefs are different to mine, and have said nothing whatsoever in this topic, or any other, which would prove your accusations.

My knowledge of Christianity and Catholicism is significant having been educated from the primary grades through completion of high school in Catholic Private Schools where religious studies were compulsory from kindergarten through grade 12. In University I completed a four year B.A. Honors Degree with a double major in History and Religious Studies on comparative Religions.

Your qualifications are irrelevent and meaningless, given your refusal to accept the fact that Constantine and the council of Nicaea created what is now modern day Catholicism/Christianity, directly corrupting the message of Jesus. If you attained those qualifications without being aware of that simple fact, then you, sir, should be ashamed of yourself.

Irrespective of what you are trying to say now your earlier post speaks for itself and shows you as you are and not as you wish you were. You would serve your God well by showing respect and tolerance of the beliefs of others rather than insulting them. Peace be upon you.

I am not 'trying' to say anything, other than to clarify that I was stating historical facts, not speaking from personal prejudice. As mentioned previously, the Holy Qur'an states that there is no compulsion in religion, and that people are entitled to their own differing beliefs. As a Muslim, I follow that Sura to the letter. 'My' god, is also your god. It does not matter if He is being called Allah, God or Jehovah, He is the same deity. As mentioned previously, the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not founding a new religion, he was restoring the original one.

I have no desire to keep repeating these facts, so shall make no further posts to this topic.

Peace be upon you.

[Pugwash]

I will be equally direct. I am neither intolerant nore disrespectful of people whose religious beliefs are different to mine, and have said nothing whatsoever in this topic, or any other, which would prove your accusations.

I will admit to being prejudiced by peoples' religions. I defy anyone to try to convince me they aren't.

Oh, I mean prejudiced as in I prejudge them, not that I hate them or believe them inferior.

[TeeJay]

I will admit to being prejudiced by peoples' religions. I defy anyone to try to convince me they aren't.

Oh, I mean prejudiced as in I prejudge them, not that I hate them or believe them inferior.

I don't prejudge people based on their religious beliefs, if you choose to believe that or not, that is up to you.

On another issue, I've tried using the internet functions on the Cect P168+, and have to report not having much success with searches via google. I was able to get RWG.CC up, but, the protocols would not allow me to log in. (similar problem with other pages) so I'll have to conclude that the P168+ is not well suited to heavy internet useage.

[Pugwash]

I don't prejudge people based on their religious beliefs, if you choose to believe that or not, that is up to you.

Prejudice (not in the bigoted meaning, mind you) is a survival trait. In animals, we call it instinct.

Someone walking towards you, looking menacing while waving a big stick is not going to get you thinking "Oh, he's trying to swat a fly while dealing with indigestion". If you react by running away, you have pre-judged him while not being in possession of the full facts. However, as you survive, you'll ... oh, I'd best stop here in case I offend any crackpot fundamentalists that don't believe in the evolution of species.

Yes, I have no qualms about calling fervent believers of Intelligent Design crackpots. That's an instinct I have. I can't change it, but it is as decent a survival trait as any other I have, so I don't mind it.

[TeeJay]

Prejudice (not in the bigoted meaning, mind you) is a survival trait. In animals, we call it instinct.

Someone walking towards you, looking menacing while waving a big stick is not going to get you thinking "Oh, he's trying to swat a fly while dealing with indigestion". If you react by running away, you have pre-judged him while not being in possession of the full facts. However, as you survive, you'll ... oh, I'd best stop here in case I offend any crackpot fundamentalists that don't believe in the evolution of species.

Yes, I have no qualms about calling fervent believers of Intelligent Design crackpots. That's an instinct I have. I can't change it, but it is as decent a survival trait as any other I have, so I don't mind it.

By that definition, then yes, everyone is 'prejudiced'. In common usage, the term is taken to simply have objection to people of other backgrounds, ie racism or, religious intollerance. Personally, I am not intollerant of different religions. I do not treat people differently for being of different ethnic or racial backgrounds to myself, other, than by acknowledging and respecting their own cultural values, and treating them in accordance with those values (which may be different from my own) and frankly, find it ludicrous and tasteless, that anyone might suggest or think that I am. My attitude, (religion not even applying, as until I converted to Islam, I was an athiest) has always been one of "when in Rome..."

[StormTooper4]

WWWOOOOOOOOO

Please folks its friday and I"m feeling there is too much tension for me to take into the weekend, but I just can't stop reading this thread..................

Anyway are we not all Son's and Daughters of God ?

and back to Demon's question

CHRISTMAS..... isn't that the season to be jolly ? FA DA DA DA DA, DA DA DA

and just to give thanks for where we are at , what we have and where the past year has taken us? and the Birth of Jesus, is about new beginnings and fresh starts.

[Pugwash]

Anyway are we not all Son's and Daughters of God ?

... and that's another discussion.

I say no, we're not. We're much more unique and important than that. We make ourselves what we are and we need to take some pride in that. We put a man on the moon, for instance. Not God, us. We did that as a species. How amazing is that?

Saying God made it happen takes away our incredible fortitude and makes us look like mere pawns. I'd rather live in a world where we, as a race, can go to the Moon, split the atom and run a four-minute mile than live in a world where we have no control over our own destiny or abilities.

Religion was a very important part of getting ourselves out of the caves and to living in close supportive proximity to oneanother without killing each other, but we've outgrown its usefulness. Time to move on to the next chapter of human progress.

[DemonSlayer]

Pugwash, which religion teaches that humans are mere pawns with no control of our destiny?

I can say that the religion I follow does not teach this. We are not mere puppets on a string where we have no free will in what we do. We do have free will in what we do, but we have to also take responsibilty for our actions.

Did God send us to the moon? Well it was mankinds desire to reach the moon (and its doubted by some conspiracy theorists that we even reached the moon, but thats another topic ) However think of it this way, why are you even breathing and existing in the world right now? Study about how everything in the Universe is laid out so perfectly, that the Planet earth with us humans on it have not yet met any disasters which threaten to wipe us out. Look at the planetary systems and how they behave, gravity and what causes it and how its so crucial to our survival. There are many many such questions which humans presently simply can't answer and I don't think they will be able to answer these any time soon. Everything is too perfect, I believe that this is all the result of a higher being who has caused all this to happen, and not 'by chance'.

[Victoria]

Hey TeeJay, wassup.

Ahh, Freud... I've heard that he created the concept of the Oedipus Complex to assuage his own feelings of guilt about his attraction to his step-mother. While some of his concepts are interesting, they are a little formulaic (and self-aimed) for my taste...

Right. But they were an important start, you'll agree. There's nothing wrong,

[Victoria]

My apologies if you found my post unfriendly or intollerant, that was never my intention, I was simply posting facts, as they related to the discussion.

TeeJay, if you'll permit, I think the problem in discussing religion tends to lie in comparing two religions. Because when you compare, even to try to elucidate points, value judgements enter the dialogue.

And that's where human beings take DEEP offence.

Demon earlier referenced reincarnation. Your reply was like me replying to him, "Well, we Roman Catholics do not believe in reincarnation, which to boot is a ridiculous concept, since we have immortal souls. If you take reincarnation at face value, then you can never help poor people, because they obviously are suffering for past misdeeds."

That would've been both rude, and arrogant of me, in the context of the discussion. That's how your words about Christianity sounded, if you get my meaning.

You're a gentle man.

But converts tend to speak in absolutes which can cause offence. Heck, even us cafeteria Catholics have to be careful.

[ryyannon]

.../

Did God send us to the moon? Well it was mankinds desire to reach the moon (and its doubted by some conspiracy theorists that we even reached the moon, but thats another topic ) However think of it this way, why are you even breathing and existing in the world right now? Study about how everything in the Universe is laid out so perfectly, that the Planet earth with us humans on it have not yet met any disasters which threaten to wipe us out. Look at the planetary systems and how they behave, gravity and what causes it and how its so crucial to our survival. There are many many such questions which humans presently simply can't answer and I don't think they will be able to answer these any time soon. Everything is too perfect, I believe that this is all the result of a higher being who has caused all this to happen, and not 'by chance'.

You mean Nanuq?

[Victoria]

Time to move on to the next chapter of human progress.

Ironically enough, Pug, you are championing a concept which takes away the very thing which allows you to be an atheist -- choice. Leave it up to people, and thereto society, what they "should" believe in.

I've noticed there's nothing more intolerant in this world than Atheists. Religious people, incredibly enough, by acknowledging that there IS or MIGHT BE a Higher Being than themselves, are wrestling with incertitude about life.

But Atheists presume to answer that there is nothing out there greater than the sum of our parts. And worse, they're preachier than a holy roller in the Bible Belt.

Here's an exercise in speculation, Pug.

I, as a person who believes completely in God, can intellectually accept that hey, maybe there is no God.

Can you do the same? Can you admit your most deeply held beliefs are or might be wrong?

[Raijor]

I will be equally direct. I am neither intolerant nore disrespectful of people whose religious beliefs are different to mine, and have said nothing whatsoever in this topic, or any other, which would prove your accusations.

Your qualifications are irrelevent and meaningless, given your refusal to accept the fact that Constantine and the council of Nicaea created what is now modern day Catholicism/Christianity, directly corrupting the message of Jesus. If you attained those qualifications without being aware of that simple fact, then you, sir, should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not 'trying' to say anything, other than to clarify that I was stating historical facts, not speaking from personal prejudice. As mentioned previously, the Holy Qur'an states that there is no compulsion in religion, and that people are entitled to their own differing beliefs. As a Muslim, I follow that Sura to the letter. 'My' god, is also your god. It does not matter if He is being called Allah, God or Jehovah, He is the same deity. As mentioned previously, the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not founding a new religion, he was restoring the original one.

I have no desire to keep repeating these facts, so shall make no further posts to this topic.

Peace be upon you.

'My' god, is also your god

I don't think so ... you have no clue as to my faith and what I believe except through the words of my signature ... what you do every day will make you a good person ... or not.

Your qualifications are irrelevent and meaningless, given your refusal to accept the fact that Constantine and the council of Nicaea created what is now modern day Catholicism/Christianity, directly corrupting the message of Jesus.

I do not have qualifications I have an education where I learned to think critically, read and write effectively and synthesize ideas to create coherent presentations. And you have stated nonsense in this quote.

I was stating historical facts

The things you think are facts are interpretations of event by others. When you speak of the Council of Nicene creating modern Catholicism/Christianity you are only allowing for one explanation of Church history. For example Emperor Constantine's Nicene council is usually pointed to as the source for the doctrine of the Holy Trinity of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost, yet the Trinity was present in the church long before Constantine's council. The Catholic Church gets blamed for inventing the Trinity yet the Catholic Church was not around in a its modern form. The truth is that there was no cohesive Roman Catholic Church ruling Christianity before Constantine and that is because Christianity was an illegal religion and an underground practice. Christians were persecuted, tortured and put to death by the state. It only makes sense that Christianity as an organized religion could only begin when it was no longer a crime to be a Christian and its members did not have to fear for their lives for practicing their faith. It was not until hundred's of year's later between the 5th cent. and the 7th cent. that the first vestiges of a Catholic church government rose where there was the Bishop of Rome as the head of the Church and making it an official Roman Catholic Church functioning similar to today's.

In order to understand the Council of Nicea we need to understand Constantine 1 and what took place. In 312 AD, Constantine claimed he had a vision from God, he saw a flaming cross in the sky, and the words emblazoned across the Cross "in this sign conquer". Constantine painted the Crosses on the shields of his soldiers. It is assumed it was Jesus Christ whom he accepted as God. The fact that Constantine saw the Cross and the sun together can explain why he worshiped the Roman sun god while at the same time professing to be a Christian. He conversion brought a political / Religious unity to his empire. Under Constantine in 312 AD, Christianity was adopted by Rome and persecution of Christian's ended. Constantine 'Christianized' the Roman Empire and made it the religion of the state. But historians disagree whether or not Constantine actually became a Christian. His character certainly did not reflect the teachings of Jesus. Constantine was vain, violent and superstitious and he waited until he was dying before asking to be baptized. Constantine did not care about the theological issues as much as he did keeping the peace and his power in the Empire. Christianity was useful to him in that aim.

Now to the claim that the Trinity doctrine was invented by the Catholic Church at the council of Nicaea in the 4th century. History has a different story. Its been said if one tells a lie long enough, and hard enough, people will begin to believe it. This is revisionist history. There was a clash within the two differing sects of Christianity at least 50 years before the Nicene Council and they only differed on how Jesus was God though both agreed he was God. What was debated at the Council of Nicene was whether Christ was a being created by God which one group promoted, or that he was the same substance as God considering that he was God as proposed by the other sect. The issue of the Divinity of Jesus was not what was dealt with at the Nicene Council as that was accepted by all. This was never an issue. Jesus Divinity as God and of the substance of God was affirmed as was Giod the Trinity. Hence the Nicene Creed .. "I believe in on God the Father Almighty creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all time, .....And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the giver of life, that proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and Son is worshiped together and glorified together, ...."

So there you have another interpretation of what the Nicene Council represents to Christianity.... Unity. Nothing more. It is this unity that allowed the Church to grow. It would ultimately splinter again into many sects later on when thinkers began to question the behavior of the leaders of the Church. At no time has the Divinity of Jesus been questioned or his message corrupted.

Your point about modern day Christianity having corrupted the message of Jesus is nonsense. Take a moment to read the new Testament where Jesus's message is and you will see it is not corrupted at all. It remains as it was when he first laid it down for his Apostles. Along with being intolerant and mean spirited toward other Religions you are ignorant about what you are speaking about as you clearly have not done any research on your own about the Council of Nicea and what followed for Christianity. History does not allow for only one interpretation of it.

Peace be upon you.

[Victoria]

But historians disagree whether or not Constantine actually became a Christian. His character certainly did not reflect the teachings of Jesus. Constantine was vain, violent and superstitious and he waited until he was dying before asking to be baptized. Constantine did not care about the theological issues as much as he did keeping the peace and his power in the Empire. Christianity was useful to him in that aim.

A word about this, in passing.

His conversion and subsequent life may have been problematic in Christian terms, but his conversion transformed his aged mother's life.

St. Helena, as she later was known, was over 80 years old when she travelled to Jerusalem, charged with bringing back the Holy Relics, like the True Cross, from the Holy Lands. This woman became famous for her piety, kindness, penitence, and humility though she was made "Augusta", the highest rank in the land.

She can be said to have lived a Christ-like life the moment Christ touched her heart.

Not everyone's conversion is as dramatic as hers. But there are many kinds of Christians, and clearly both Constantine I and St. Helena encompass them, contradicting each other, in a very human way.

[phaedo]

Ironically enough, Pug, you are championing a concept which takes away the very thing which allows you to be an atheist -- choice. Leave it up to people, and thereto society, what they "should" believe in.

I've noticed there's nothing more intolerant in this world than Atheists. Religious people, incredibly enough, by acknowledging that there IS or MIGHT BE a Higher Being than themselves, are wrestling with incertitude about life.

But Atheists presume to answer that there is nothing out there greater than the sum of our parts. And worse, they're preachier than a high roller in the Bible Belt.

Here's an exercise in speculation, Pug.

I, as a person who believes completely in God, can intellectually accept that hey, maybe there is no God.

Can you do the same? Can you admit your most deeply held beliefs are or might be wrong?

I personally have gone through too much over the years to accept that there could be the remotest possiblity there could be a God. But, unlike basically every religious person I have ever met, I don't try to force my knowledge/beliefs upon others - let them think what hey want to. All those that are religious I know, do nothing but try to force their beliefs upon others. And I doubt they could accept the idea there could be no God.

Homer Simpson summed it up well once, saying something along the lines 'What if we are wrong and praying to the wrong God and making the real God angrier and angrier'. Every religion thinks their God is the God. How can they all be right for a start?

[Victoria]

I personally have gone through too much over the years to accept that there could be the remotest possiblity there could be a God.

Yes, I've personally met Holocaust survivors who lost all belief in God after their ordeal. And likewise, I have met Holocaust survivors whose faith in God was never stronger than after their ordeal.

How does one argue about Atheism or Belief to these people? I wouldn't even dare.

Having said that, whatever I go through personally, does not influence concepts which may exist outside my own life. That's kind of tough to say and not be really pedantic, so I never say it (save now).

Every religion thinks their God is the God. How can they all be right for a start?

Because people mix up the concept of God, with the concept of religion? I don't know. I just offer that as an opinion.

[jnagy]

who here thinks themselves good people?if you think you are please respond and i'll prove to you that there are none "good".

if you have ever lied ,you are a liar.if you have ever looked at someone with lust,your an adulterer.if you have ever stolen anything ,your a thief.if you have ever said"my god wouldn't do this or that",your an idolator.point is we are all sinners,and in need of salvation.everyone is free to choose jesus or not.you cannot stand in the middle and say stuff like jesus was a good teacher but not the son of god.that was not left as an option.he was either a lunitic who actually thought he was the son of god,a pure evil man who deliberately misled everyone into thinking he was the son of god,or he was telling the truth.the choice is yours.p.s. nothing was ever taken out of the bible, just excluded due to the nature and age of the material.the fact that people know the difference between good and evil is proof of the existence of good and evil.this is the most important discussion a human can have with another human and god bless all who read it and whomever started this thread.also,jesus's birth date is irrelevent.no accurate birth date,death date,miracles,misfortunes,anything,makes his truth any easier to accept.people ALWAYS have trouble accepting truth.it hurts.no christian tries to force"religion" on anyone .here is an example taken from a letter an athiest wrote .the athiet said any christian that truly believed that ALL men are already doomed to eternal seperation from god,and do not do everything in their power to lead people to christ are the epitome of evil.the athiest is right.as a believer in christ i will do whatever is needed to spare a fellow human being from damnation.as an athiest evolutionist,a person should not ever be concerned with species extinction,global warming,murder,etc.these are all natural occurances.survival of the fittest,right?as soon as man steps in to prevent these horrible things we interupt the survival of the fittest theory.to all evolutionists who might be reading this let me pose a question.was hitler a good or bad man ?if you are a true athiest you must admire his mind and drive to carry out a plan to eradicate weaker less evolved beings to quicken the evolving of the human race.that was his stated goal.evolution theory has not contributed to one thing in science,not one.it has only paved the way for genocide throughout history.please research where your worldview leads.do not only rely on yourself and your pride.people can't even rely on themselves to get to work on time ,or pick a great watch to buy!only trust in the lord.peace out!

Edited February 29, 2008 by jnagy

[lanikai]

I raised children to respect others belief's,... cultural or otherwise...children should not be taught to hate others beliefs or the way in which others worship

whomever you talk or pray to , I believe it all goes to the same mail box ,as long as you don't believe man is the God of all ... there once was a madman that took existential thoughts to this level

My belief may be totally different from yours.. and that's OK .. different culture .. etc.

Spirituality is Man's conscious contact with Faith.. and faith is something you cannot touch nor see at times .. it is a belief

the world spins at thousands of MPH,.. galaxy's are spinning all around us at light speed ... there are as many stars as there are grains of sand on every beach in the world .... look at the wonders around us.. and if I were to think that "Man" was responsible for creating all of this.. then that is the epitome of self centered thought.

I believe God talks through people

When I talk to God it is called prayer.... if God were to answer me directly that is called pschyzophrenia...lol

Aloha Ke Akua

God is Love......period

[rodwc]

Man. I`ve learnt some words I never knew existed here.

Glad to see that a religious topic ended up friendly.

[jnagy]

Man. I`ve learnt some words I never knew existed here.

Glad to see that a religious topic ended up friendly.

they should always end up friendly,with people getting something to think about.with this topic you can't help but step on toes but if someone gets offended they need to think about what offended them and why and be better prepared next time to discuss religious topics.around the globe people die for their beliefs and will continue to.to the athiest i ask ,would you die for your beliefs?would you die for evolution?would you die for Darwin?Lanikai is right ,God is love.but God is also justice and righteousness and cannot even look upon sin and leave it unpunished.as for islam,there is no such thing as a moderate muslim.i am to believe that muslims take the koran as the word of god,right?maybe someone can explain this surah to me.surah8 59-60."let not the unbeliever think they can get the better of the godly:against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power,including steeds of war,to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies,of Allah and your enemies,and others besides whom you may not know,but whom Allah knows."also surah 9:5 states "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them,and seize them,and beleaguer them,and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."if you are a muslim and do not abide by these commands you are not a true muslim anymore than someone who claims to be a christian or jew but does not abide by their holy books is a christian or jew.am i right or wrong?any jewish folks here?

Edited February 29, 2008 by jnagy

[Pugwash]

Here's an exercise in speculation, Pug.

I, as a person who believes completely in God, can intellectually accept that hey, maybe there is no God.

Can you do the same? Can you admit your most deeply held beliefs are or might be wrong?

Beliefs? You don't get atheism. It's not a faith.

I as a person who intellectually understands there is no God can accept, in a spiritual way, that there may be something out there. I just won't apply the same rules to it. I know there is no God.

As an Atheist, I'm not trying to convert anyone, but when presented with someone trying to wedge religion into everyday life, I will get defensive. Most religion states that you have to convert people around you. You don't get door-to-door atheists, or soap-box atheists in the town square.

[subzero1]

So, how can I have no faith despite a true desire to know and love god? My only conclusion is that there either is no god, or that he simply doesn't love/want me. I feel I am calling into the wilderness and the silence from god is deafening.

[Pugwash]

to the athiest i ask ,would you die for your beliefs?would you die for evolution?would you die for Darwin?

Darwin? Darwin isn't a higher being. No-one in their right mind would die for Darwin.

However, atheists lay down their lives for causes all the time. To suggest that they are inferior or have less compassion because they have no God is ridiculous. Think it through, civil protests are not about religion. The suffragettes weren't throwing themselves in front of the King's horses for god, for instance.

Nobody dies for evolution as it's not a faith. Trying to pull it into a wrestling ring dressed as a religion so you can have at it with your faith-based moves will not work. Hint: It's not about evolution, it never has been.

[TeeJay]

Right. But they were an important start, you'll agree. There's nothing wrong,

[TeeJay]

I don't think so ... you have no clue as to my faith and what I believe except through the words of my signature ...

From your previous comments, I presumed that you were a Catholic, my apologies if that was an incorrect judgement. If you are not a Catholic/Christian, why the moral indignation on their behalf, for what was on my part, no more than poorly expressed tone. You perceived intollerance in that, but that does not make it so. I am not an intollerant person, you, on the other hand, rather appear to be.

I do not have qualifications

You previously took great pleasure in slapping your educational achievements in this thread, in a vain attempt to appeal to authority. Have the grace not to deny it.

The things you think are facts are interpretations of event by others.

No, they are facts. You go on to state them yourself. I won't re-quote it, your post is sufficient.

In order to understand the Council of Nicea we need to understand Constantine 1 and what took place.

Absolutely so.

In 312 AD, Constantine claimed he had a vision from God, he saw a flaming cross in the sky, and the words emblazoned across the Cross "in this sign conquer".

And it could be, that he did receive a vision from God. It could be, that God intended Constantine to be one of His messengers, but, his later actions, possibly removed him from God's favor, which could be why Muhammad, peace be upon him, received his calling, after the actions of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea. As I mentioned previously, Muhammad, peace be upon him, was not founding a new religion, he was restoring the original one. It could be argued, that he was correcting the actions taken by Constantine.

Now to the claim that the Trinity doctrine was invented by the Catholic Church at the council of Nicaea in the 4th century. History has a different story. Its been said if one tells a lie long enough, and hard enough, people will begin to believe it. This is revisionist history. There was a clash within the two differing sects of Christianity at least 50 years before the Nicene Council and they only differed on how Jesus was God though both agreed he was God. What was debated at the Council of Nicene was whether Christ was a being created by God which one group promoted, or that he was the same substance as God considering that he was God as proposed by the other sect. The issue of the Divinity of Jesus was not what was dealt with at the Nicene Council as that was accepted by all. This was never an issue. Jesus Divinity as God and of the substance of God was affirmed as was Giod the Trinity. Hence the Nicene Creed .. "I believe in on God the Father Almighty creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, Begotten of the Father before all time, .....And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the giver of life, that proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and Son is worshiped together and glorified together, ...."

So there you have another interpretation of what the Nicene Council represents to Christianity.... Unity. Nothing more. It is this unity that allowed the Church to grow. It would ultimately splinter again into many sects later on when thinkers began to question the behavior of the leaders of the Church. At no time has the Divinity of Jesus been questioned or his message corrupted.

Without going into too much depth on those points, Christianity, in it's spread, took concepts from other religions, mostly, in attempts to gain converts, hence the dates of the festivals Christians currently celebrate, which would coincide perfectly with Pagan festivals, were it not for differences between calander systems.

Your point about modern day Christianity having corrupted the message of Jesus is nonsense.

That was not what I said. I said, modern day Christianity is a corruption of Jesus' message, (because of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea) not that it does currently corrupt Jesus' message. There is quite a difference in what I said, and what you are suggesting I said.

Along with being intolerant and mean spirited toward other Religions you are ignorant about what you are speaking about as you clearly have not done any research on your own about the Council of Nicea and what followed for Christianity.

If I was ignorant about the subject, I would not be able to discuss it in this depth. Do not discount my position as 'ignorant', simply because it does not coincide with yours. That opinion, in itself, is ignorant and intollerant. Things you baselessly accuse me of, yet continually display yourself.

History does not allow for only one interpretation of it.

Yes it does. The truth. There is only One Truth. Opinions are opinions, and we can all have different ones. Facts are facts though, and immuteable.

Peace be upon you.

Indeed, peace be upon you, I sincerely do not desire to continue this conversation with you.

[Edit for clarity]

Edited February 29, 2008 by TeeJay