There Is Such A Thing As The Best...

[Craytonic]

If you just want durabilty why not buy a g-shock? Much more durable and cheap.

[nonskeder]

For vintage subs and SD's MBW from my experience are indeed the best. For the modern sub MBW then any TW best. Modern SD's is more troublesome. The EL and MBW are very close with the edge given to MBW for a slightly better dial. Both have the correct case but have the wrong HE valve that is a dead give away. The CN has the correct valve but the case is way wrong. Hope this helps, John.

[crystalcranium]

Humm... adding the vintage SD and DW Daytona. Obviously rolex has the best sub. That joke was funny the first 999 times. Price is certainly is consideration, but that is for the buyer to factor in and quality can be ranked seperate. Price is certainly a subjective criteria, whereas quality and accuracy are at least somewhat objective. Obviously an Austin Martin is a better car than a honda civic, although the civic may be the better car for you.

This is my ranking with comments. Obviously yours will probably differ, and I would welcome suggestions. I decided to use classes since some are too close of a call to rank

A+ (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

* MBW/WM 1680 Sub (red or white)

- This can become the most accurate with modifications (time and money)

- Many prefer to add a genuine Tropic 127 crystal which is straight all the way up, the one installed is not

- Dial has no lume on it

- Pearl on Bezel is not accurate

- Crown Guards are a little bulky

- Lug holes need to be drilled out to accomodate genuine springbar

* MBW/WM Vintage Seadweller

- This can become the most accurate with modifications (time and money)

- Might want genuine crystal

- Pearl on Bezel is not accurate

- Crown Guards are a little bulky

- Lug holes need to be drilled out to accomodate genuine springbar

A (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

* MBW/WM Modern Sub

- Incorrect solid bracelet, should be hollow (and gen bracelet probably will not fit)

- Laser etching is not as faint as genuine

- Pearl on bezel is not accurate

- Crown guards a little heavy (but very close)

- Needs relume

- Great Rehaut depth

- Maginification certainly not weak, may be a little too strong

* TW Best Classic Sub (Eddie Lee)

- Has no laser etching, which is correct

- Correct Solid bracelet

- Pearl on Bezel is not accurate

- Crown Guards a little heavy (but very close)

- Needs relume

- Great rehaut depth

- Lug hole positioning makes it hard/impossible to enlarge for genuine springbar

- Correct in that it has lug-holes

Non-submariners worthy of an "A" ranking

* DW 6263 Paul Neuman Daytona.

- VJ 23 movement in it is a piece of [censored] and will need to be replaced

- Correct VJ 72 movement is very expensive ($500-1000)

- Out of box, the middle subdial does not function

- Genuine Tropic 23 crystal is a solid modification

B (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

* TW Best Modern Sub (Eddie Lee)

- Rehaut too shallow

- Thus, magnification a little weak

- Not as good as "A" category in most areas

* Ultimate Sub (Precious Time)

- Rehaut too shallow

- Thus, magnification a little weak

- Not as good as "A" category in most areas

C (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

~$100 rep subs

- Good bargain, but simply not the quality of "A" category or "B"

D (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

* Asian Automatic Sub Reps.

- You get what you pay for. Crappy movement, etc

I have looked at Luckyy's available subs. The only modern sub he offers is the LV. Is this the one you are talking about? The rehaut is massivly deep like the genuine. The price is $350 delivered. He says it's 440 grade stainless. Is this correct?

[Pugwash]

C (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

~$100 rep subs

- Good bargain, but simply not the quality of "A" category or "B"

D (In no Particular Order)

-----------------

* Asian Automatic Sub Reps.

- You get what you pay for. Crappy movement, etc

And this is where the whole thing falls apart. These two are the sectors that people are most likely to buy from. The $108 asian Sub (the Noobmariner) is one of the top selling reps of all time, apparently, and it's far from rubbish, and there are a lot of worse Subs that are also "Asian Automatic Sub Reps".

The ETA Subs are of exceedingly variable quality, from those with the Noobmariner case, to those with worse cases, and they can go from under $100 to close to $200.

The list as it stands now is merely watch porn: The rep equivalent of Supercar magazines bought by people who really buy Astras and 205s.

[Pugwash]

I have looked at Luckyy's available subs. The only modern sub he offers is the LV. Is this the one you are talking about? The rehaut is massivly deep like the genuine. The price is $350 delivered. He says it's 440 grade stainless. Is this correct?

He sells cheap $100 asian modern Subs and LVs as well.

[crystalcranium]

And this is where the whole thing falls apart. These two are the sectors that people are most likely to buy from. The $108 asian Sub (the Noobmariner) is one of the top selling reps of all time, apparently, and it's far from rubbish, and there are a lot of worse Subs that are also "Asian Automatic Sub Reps".

The ETA Subs are of exceedingly variable quality, from those with the Noobmariner case, to those with worse cases, and they can go from under $100 to close to $200.

The list as it stands now is merely watch porn: The rep equivalent of Supercar magazines bought by people who really buy Astras and 205s.

Can you let me know what you think of Luckyy's LV. I want an LV and I'm this close to buying it.

[crystalcranium]

He sells cheap $100 asian modern Subs and LVs as well.

So nudge nudge wink wink??????

[Craytonic]

And this is where the whole thing falls apart. These two are the sectors that people are most likely to buy from. The $108 asian Sub (the Noobmariner) is one of the top selling reps of all time, apparently, and it's far from rubbish, and there are a lot of worse Subs that are also "Asian Automatic Sub Reps".

The ETA Subs are of exceedingly variable quality, from those with the Noobmariner case, to those with worse cases, and they can go from under $100 to close to $200.

The list as it stands now is merely watch porn: The rep equivalent of Supercar magazines bought by people who really buy Astras and 205s.

I'll admit I have no adequate ranking of the C and D quality reps internally. I personally have no interest in them and haven't really researched them (outside of looking at pauls "ultimate sub" and trying to figure out if it was the same as PT's). In my mind they each have their different flaws greater than the other categories so it makes sense to lump them together, just pick the one you can live with and argue it vs the other cheaper watches till your face turns blue. Obviously there will be some outliners but someone else can argue that case - I don't think anything lumped in there will be able to escape to the next higher rung on the ladder.

At this point in time, I don't really see the point of the "$108 asian sub" anymore when a sub can be had within 15 dollars of that price with a real ETA movement. Sure it is between 1 to 11 dollars cheaper possibly to get the asian instead of the ETA but if you are that budget conscious you probably need to spend the money on food, not reps. To me, the asian movement sub is a remnant of another period of our collecting, it has been eclipsed by ETA subs for about the same price that have shown up in the last 2-3 months. The marketplace has advanced and served us well.

I don't really think a list with all watches priced under 400 is considered watch porn. Many of us, myself included, own one or more of these watches. Furthermore, it attempts to answer the question "who has the best sub" correctly. If you told someone a $108 asian sub was the "best" sub you would be misleading them. Yes they may chose to buy it for budget reasons, etc but they are buying it for those reasons, not because it is the "best"

If you want to contribute, per you pointing out there are differences in the C & D category, you could probably rank those as "C+", "C", and "C-" and incorporate that as a very nice contribution to the list that would help buyers looking within those pricepoints! Alternatively, a listing of "what is the best sub for the money" or "what sub is the best value" would address your points (points different from the list I made and points I have no interest in addressing although it seems the direction you want to go).

Edited June 21, 2006 by Craytonic

[Craytonic]

I have looked at Luckyy's available subs. The only modern sub he offers is the LV. Is this the one you are talking about? The rehaut is massivly deep like the genuine. The price is $350 delivered. He says it's 440 grade stainless. Is this correct?

Well he offers it as a regular sub too, without being an LV around the same price.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Craytonic

[Brian]

In what way isn't this just another "Who has the best Sub"?

It's never worked before, what's different this time?

EXACTLY!

Because a quartz watch is a toy. God intended clocks to tick. End of story.

I really enjoy my mechanical reps, but I still like my Echodrive my son got me for Christmas.

[ubiquitous]

Because a quartz watch is a toy. God intended clocks to tick. End of story.

[Pugwash]

At this point in time, I don't really see the point of the "$108 asian sub" anymore when a sub can be had within 15 dollars of that price with a real ETA movement.

The $108 Sub is significantly better than the ETAs at a slightly higher price point.

I'll include my obligatory $108 Sub photo at the end of this post, but want to know if you're honestly recommending that a newbie join this forum and immediately splash out on a $550 MBW (or whatever they cost these days) and send it off to get modded?

Here's my classification of modern Subs:

1. Affordable - $108 Sub. Everyone needs to own one of these just to know what value they can get. It's the ideal starter-rep, along with the Silix 111h.
   
2. Better - Precious Time's Ultimate or Josh's pre-modded. These are excellent entry points that can be bought with a simple PM or click on a webpage. They're not cheap, but they'll do what most people expect and are painless to obtain.
   
3. Best - MBW with mods and OEM parts. Once you know what you want, and can cope with hunting down parts, waiting weeks for a package from Thailand, booking in some Joe/Palp/The Zigmeister time, waiting weeks ...
   
4. Rolex - Slap down five grand, walk away with a Rolex.
   

Anything else is merely stuff in between.

This is all an exceedingly personal opinion and in no way reflects reality or the truth etc. I'll shut up now and point you at the pretty pic of a hunnerddollawatch:

[Craytonic]

Haha thanks for the obligatory photo. I was waiting on that one

I'm not recommending anyone buy anything (or at least I hope I did not). Instead, I am just trying to provide an honest answer to the question "who has the best ___," which I think I have done. Irrespective of price, I think most members would agree a MBW 1680 is better than a $108 sub with an asian movement.

I think the problem is you are trying to frame my answer as one to a different question. The question is "who has the best ___." Answers to the question "what sub is the best value," "what sub should I buy," and "how can I get the most for my money" are necessarily different questions and would have different answers.

The list you provided is basically the same as mine with the order inverted and categories "c" and "d" lumped together as affordable? I do know I would not recommend an asian 108 sub to anyone when they can have an ETA one for the same price (and on their wrist within a week, most people shipping the cheap-os do not use EMS with tracking, which is particularly important to a first time buyer). I think your sub is from TTK, right? I certainly would not recommend that ordeal to a 1st timer for an asian rep when then can have the ETA one with much less trouble and faster (and have a better movement which will last longer).

The $108 Sub is significantly better than the ETAs at a slightly higher price point.

I'll include my obligatory $108 Sub photo at the end of this post, but want to know if you're honestly recommending that a newbie join this forum and immediately splash out on a $550 MBW (or whatever they cost these days) and send it off to get modded?

Here's my classification of modern Subs:

1. Affordable - $108 Sub. Everyone needs to own one of these just to know what value they can get. It's the ideal starter-rep, along with the Silix 111h.
   
2. Better - Precious Time's Ultimate or Josh's pre-modded. These are excellent entry points that can be bought with a simple PM or click on a webpage. They're not cheap, but they'll do what most people expect and are painless to obtain.
   
3. Best - MBW with mods and OEM parts. Once you know what you want, and can cope with hunting down parts, waiting weeks for a package from Thailand, booking in some Joe/Palp/The Zigmeister time, waiting weeks ...
   
4. Rolex - Slap down five grand, walk away with a Rolex.
   

Anything else is merely stuff in between.

This is all an exceedingly personal opinion and in no way reflects reality or the truth etc. I'll shut up now and point you at the pretty pic of a hunnerddollawatch:

[Indyclmbr]

Photo comparisons between a specific rep and a gen are particularly helpful. There are a couple up right now regarding vintages (edited to add: and the LV). There was one on the Old RWG that compared a JosNana sub to a genuine from watcher1 that was particularly helpful. I couldn't find it here when I searched. Maybe we should be aiming for more of those comparison shots than trying to determine who has the best sub. Clearly, the best sub is the one that has the flaws one can live with at the price one can afford. Those are my thoughts. If anyone has the post from Watcher1, I remember that being a great post.

Climb on.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Indyclmbr

[crystalcranium]

...and I submit, anyone who thinks another "who has the best sub" thread here is a waste of time needs to read these posts. This is an ever shifting target and never fails to inspire interesting dialogue.

IMHO spending upwards of $800 for a MBW vintage that has the crap modified out of it is a waste. I for one would rather get a $500 Ultimate from Josh that can go in the pool, passes CG and cyclops muster and had a minor pearl issue but looks brand new than have an OEM compatable vintage that looks like it's been through the mill for the last 40 years. I'm just not a vintage guy I suppose. What's the point of having something that is indistinguishable from the original in a replica if no one knows what an original looks like.

Edited June 21, 2006 by crystalcranium

[Pugwash]

I think your sub is from TTK, right? I certainly would not recommend that ordeal to a 1st timer for an asian rep when then can have the ETA one with much less trouble and faster (and have a better movement which will last longer).

Trusty has it on his site for $108, so Neil isn't the only choice.

The ETAs at the same price aren't the same quality case, iirc.

Edit to point out my Sub from TTK was my first purchase and it went like a dream. No issues, Neil responded to mails, arrived in time, etc. Perfect.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Pugwash

[MAHLER]

Do you excuse if I say mine but perhaps "the best" it is not what it satisfies us when we bring t to the wrist?

[crystalcranium]

Just now, Josh posted an LV Ultimate for about $490 delivered, waterproofed and case modded, deep rehaut, servicing and COSC like performance adjustment in 316 stainless. Is this better than Luckyy's MBW LV in 440 for $350? Every minute moves the best target!

[Craytonic]

Just now, Josh posted an LV Ultimate for about $490 delivered, waterproofed and case modded, deep rehaut, servicing and COSC like performance adjustment in 316 stainless. Is this better than Luckyy's MBW LV in 440 for $350? Every minute moves the best target!

I think this is why categories are valuable.

[purspeed]

I think this is why categories are valuable.

Exactly.

Catagorize in terms of "best value" for a given dollar price range. That is absolutely feasible, pragmatic and would save a lot of folks a lot of headache.

For example:

700-1000 dollar price range gets you these models, with these mods and this is what it compares and contrasts to the original

450-700 dollars gets you these...

275-450 dollar budget will get you these...

You may include pic's of gen vs. rep as well as what the person will need to do to achieve the above...

Does this make sense to anyone?

[hk45ca]

Exactly.

Catagorize in terms of "best value" for a given dollar price range. That is absolutely feasible, pragmatic and would save a lot of folks a lot of headache.

For example:

700-1000 dollar price range gets you these models, with these mods and this is what it compares and contrasts to the original

450-700 dollars gets you these...

275-450 dollar budget will get you these...

You may include pic's of gen vs. rep as well as what the person will need to do to achieve the above...

Does this make sense to anyone?

purfect Edited June 21, 2006 by hk45ca

[Sherrington]

[quote name='Nanuq' date='Jun 21 2006, 06:58 AM' post='72845'

I vote for MBW's 6541 Milgauss. But it's a train wreck until you change the crown, bezel and crystal.

[crystalcranium]

Exactly.

Catagorize in terms of "best value" for a given dollar price range. That is absolutely feasible, pragmatic and would save a lot of folks a lot of headache.

For example:

700-1000 dollar price range gets you these models, with these mods and this is what it compares and contrasts to the original

450-700 dollars gets you these...

275-450 dollar budget will get you these...

You may include pic's of gen vs. rep as well as what the person will need to do to achieve the above...

Does this make sense to anyone?

Yes and be aware that every week, these lists will change. I just looked at Josh's Ultimate LV, Luckyy's MBW LV and, imagine this, Rolex's LV side by side in pictures and Josh's is the closest. Luckyy's CGs are way off and the rehaut is too deep. I just wish someone would make a submariner with a bracelet that feels original. That's why I was going to pull the trigger on Luckyy's 440 stainless Sub. Even the best appearing replicas fail the feel test.

[Craytonic]

Luckyyy's actually feels pretty good.

It would be easy to slap price points on the categories i gaive

A+ - 350-400

A - 275-350

B - ~200

C - ~100

D - ~80-100

[ubiquitous]

IMHO spending upwards of $800 for a MBW vintage that has the crap modified out of it is a waste. I for one would rather get a $500 Ultimate from Josh that can go in the pool, passes CG and cyclops muster and had a minor pearl issue but looks brand new than have an OEM compatable vintage that looks like it's been through the mill for the last 40 years. I'm just not a vintage guy I suppose. What's the point of having something that is indistinguishable from the original in a replica if no one knows what an original looks like.

Quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all day... definitely good for a laugh!